Important question for non-Catholics???

[guanophore]

Since regardless of their Church teach ing Catholics do not allow me to identify as Catholic, may I play too?  :bounce:

I am surprised to read this, CMatt. Everyone here on CAF has the same “allowances”. We are all shoulder to shoulder here, and none of us has “disallowed” you to identify yourself as Catholic. I thought you freely chose to refrain from doing so because you were causing a public scandal by calling yourself Catholic while posting anti-Catholic sentiments and theology. Perhaps you really did not do this as a matter of personal integrity, and now you are blaming others for it?

I would fully expect you to participate in a non-Catholic thread, since your sentiments are clearly non-Catholic. :sad_yes:

Here's one possible scenario.  Even if a non Catholic were to believe the Catholic Church at one time was the Church founded by God, they might see reasons.  Lets say a non Catholic sees the humans within Her as having strayed.  It might be perhaps believing teaching was even off from early on.  Or the non Catholic might recognize abuses.  Or believes there has been corruption, legalistic rules brought forth.  Or believes leaders have beared fruits by which we shall know them by and thus are to beware of them.  And they believe Christ then has to reform His Church in order to keep His promise of the gates not prevailing.  If Christ can change disciplines, change His mind about the age at which a fasting obligation begins, and so forth in the Catholic Church for instance, then He surely can change His earthly leadership as needed as well.

CMatt, elsewhere you claim to understand the Catholic faith, but then you write things like this that indicate you do not.

Jesus does reform to keep His promise,but none of the doctrines He has committed to the Church have ever needed “reform”. It is people that need reform. They are always in need of reform.

Yes, He can change the earthly leadership, and indeed this is for HIm to do, not us.OUr duty is to submit to those He has placed over us to shepherd us. If He thinks they need to be changed, He will take care of it.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

In Jn 14:6 Jesus said “I am the way and the truth…”

Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.

If those verses were all we needed, why do we have the rest of the New Testament specifically those letters and epistles that are not a part of the Gospel?

Those letters and epistles provide many instructions, corrections and warnings. We even see warnings in the Gospels, from Jesus Himself.

**Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name?
**

St. Thomas Aquinas Catena Aurea

Jerome: As He had said above that those who have the robe of a good life are yet not to be received because of the impiety of their doctrines; so now on the other hand, He forbids us to participate the faith with those who while they are strong in sound doctrine, destroy it with evil works. For it behoves the servants of God that both their work should be approved by their teaching and their teaching by their works.

The following passage is important as to the discussion of Christ’s Church.

Mat 7:24 Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock,
Mat 7:25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these my words and doth them not, shall be like a foolish man that built his house upon the sand,
Mat 7:27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell, and great was the fall thereof.

Do you think Christ was likened to the wise man, who built his house upon a rock that withstood the floods and winds?

**Eph 4:13 Until we all meet into the unity of faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness by which they lie in wait to deceive. **

 

[Stephen168]

Once, everyone in Science viewed the Sun as circling the Earth (first understanding); then most in Science viewed the Earth as circling the Sun (second understanding), though some in Science held to the first understanding. The history of the *second understanding *did not begin with that revelation however, the history of the *second understanding *began with, and has the same history, as the first understanding.

But the truth did not change.

Once, everyone in Church had doctrines and dogmas (catholic understanding);

The truth taught by Christ, and handed down from the Apostles by the authority given to the Bishops by the Apostles.

then some in Church had other doctrines and dogmas (protestant understanding),

Reason would tell us if they are not the doctrines handed by the Apostles (Catholic) then they are no longer the truth.

most in Church held to the catholic understanding.

Yes, truth and authority are still in the Catholic Church.

The history of the *protestant understanding *did not begin with that revelation however, the history of the *protestant understanding *began with, and has the same history, as the catholic understanding.

True, but the protestant understanding is not the understanding held by the Apostles and they reject the authority given to the Catholic Church by Christ.

The truth did not change.

 

[gcnuss]

A question for non-Catholics who don’t believe the Catholic church is the church founded by God: please give me a reason why I should belong to a non-Catholic church, regardless of denomination, and please, be specific; no generalities that move away from this simple question!

Joe,
Sorry for jumping in late. Here’s my answer to the OP – The only reason you should belong to any church, Catholic or non-Catholic, is if you are convinced that the Holy Spirit has led you there.

 

[CMatt25]

It is curious that your “faith steps” do not include God.

You may have the privilige of saying such things on this forum Guan. But this is the 2nd time this accusation has been made and I still find it not only uncharitable but offensive.

 

[pinay]

You may have the privilige of saying such things on this forum Guan. But this is the 2nd time this accusation has been made and I still find it not only uncharitable but offensive.

In CMatt’s defense, he did say “Creator”… Who, in our common understanding is God.

Ok, carry on…

 

[CMatt25]

It appears that you have still not forgiven this priest, CMatt. Lent might be a good time to consider this, since, if you continue to hold this against HIm, your heavenly father will not forgive you.

It does not sound like you have answered the call to sit it the pew at Mass and pray for him, either.

Guan, it was you who called me to do this. Forgiving and praying for him is one thing. Doing it in one of the pews in the parish where he is the celebrant, is quite another. By their fruits we shall know them.

 

[CMatt25]

In CMatt’s defense, he did say “Creator”… Who, in our common understanding is God.

Ok, carry on…

Pinay, that’s Guan’s problem? Well if that’s it ok then Guan we have to begin with faith in God. Whom as Pinay pointed out we believe created us. I just thought as a believer that was a given.

 

[CMatt25]

I am surprised to read this, CMatt. Everyone here on CAF has the same “allowances”. We are all shoulder to shoulder here, and none of us has “disallowed” you to identify yourself as Catholic.

Hmmm. I can see why you would be surprised. No Guan what is allowed on a private forum is not necessarily the same as what is allowed in the Church.

 

[guanophore]

You may have the privilige of saying such things on this forum Guan. But this is the 2nd time this accusation has been made and I still find it not only uncharitable but offensive.

Perhaps the next time you throw out your list of “faith steps” you might consider including where the Holy Spirit fits into the picture?

You may find it offensive that your “faith steps” are all based around human activity and human “faith”, but in other posts you have expressed pride in the fact that you are a moral relativist.

We happen to be in agreement that “we walk by faith, not by sight”. So far, in this Country, you are still free to fabricate your own “faith steps” out of humanism, devoid of God.

 

[guanophore]

In CMatt’s defense, he did say “Creator”… Who, in our common understanding is God.

Ok, carry on…

Some of us think of the Creator as God, but some don’t. There is a Wiccan woman that works with me that thinks of Creator as “Mother Earth”. Interestingly, she is also in complete agreement with CMatt’s idea of “faith steps”. She does not believe, either, that God the Father has revealed Himself to mankind.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Pinay, that’s Guan’s problem? Well if that’s it ok then Guan we have to begin with faith in God. Whom as Pinay pointed out we believe created us. I just thought as a believer that was a given.

CMatt25,

You threw out a couple of verses, without explanation. I responded, in kind, with somewhat of an explanation and would be interested in seeing your take on those verses that I provided. It seems that’s happened twice between us now, so I am kindly requesting a response.

Thanks,

 

[guanophore]

Pinay, that’s Guan’s problem? Well if that’s it ok then Guan we have to begin with faith in God. Whom as Pinay pointed out we believe created us. I just thought as a believer that was a given.

Ok. I will stipulate that “a believer” does indicate that one believes in something. If you wish, I will also stipulate that you “begin with faith in God”.

Hmmm. I can see why you would be surprised. No Guan what is allowed on a private forum is not necessarily the same as what is allowed in the Church.

It is a public forum, CMatt. You are indicating that Catholics here have not “allowed” you to identify yourself as Catholic. In fact, this is not true. None of us have that power or authority over you.

I have commended you for refraining from doing so, because I consider it a mark of integrity that one not falsely advertise oneself.

The faith you have publicly represented here is not Catholic faith.

 

[fbl9]

CMatt25:"by thier fuirt you shall know them.
There has been many scandalous persons on the “other” side why does this not make the same teaching that they held in common with you invalid as you seem to insist the Catholic Church is.

We know adultry is prohibtted in scripture. please define adultry using scripture alone.
Please define how fornication is a sin and just what consists of fornication using scripture alone.

 

[CMatt25]

Perhaps the next time you throw out your list of “faith steps” you might consider including where the Holy Spirit fits into the picture?

Guan I have multiple times on this forum expressed how the Holy Spirit guides our consciences where as CCC teaches, in the depths of our consciences we are alone with God.

 

[CMatt25]

It is a public forum, CMatt. You are indicating that Catholics here have not “allowed” you to identify yourself as Catholic. In fact, this is not true. None of us have that power or authority over you.

But it’s a privately run internet forum. Over me as I am? You might be surprised then of the truth Guan. But I am not going to go into it further here.

 

[CMatt25]

CMatt25:"by thier fuirt you shall know them.
There has been many scandalous persons on the “other” side why does this not make the same teaching that they held in common with you invalid as you seem to insist the Catholic Church is.

We know adultery is prohibtted in scripture. please define adultry using scripture alone.
Please define how fornication is a sin and just what consists of fornication using scripture alone.

I never said others can not bear bad fruit. But the Catholic Church proclaims Herself as the only one true Church of Christ. So for me She has set a higher bar for Herself and Her Apostolic successors in which to be held by.

Deut 22:22, adultery: a man having relations with a woman who is married to another. (NAB)

1Cor 7:2, But for fear of fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. (Douay Rheims)

I am not a literalist though so literal Scripture alone won’t always work for me on some matters. Catholics and other Christians do not take many things in the Bible literally. I also believe in reason and in recognizing the customary thinking of the times in which the writers wrote.

 

[CMatt25]

CMatt25,

You threw out a couple of verses, without explanation. I responded, in kind, with somewhat of an explanation and would be interested in seeing your take on those verses that I provided. It seems that’s happened twice between us now, so I am kindly requesting a response.

Thanks,

Sorry Prod. I didn’t have much of a problem with your verses so that is why I did not respond. But my take is everyone who says Lord, Lord might not see the kingdom if they did not love and serve Him. Yes my take is Christ built His Church on a rock. On the rock of Himself being the Son of God. And He is powerful enough to move the rock as He sees necessary to keep His promise of the gates not prevailing.

 

[MartinJordan]

I really don’t see any way that Jesus gives Simon the name Peter (or Cephas) other than giving him a new name as rock. Otherwise there is no reason to give Simon another name.

MJ

 

[joe370]

Joe,
Sorry for jumping in late. Here’s my answer to the OP – The only reason you should belong to any church, Catholic or non-Catholic, is if you are convinced that the Holy Spirit has led you there.

Thanks.