Important Questions on "Veneration" Vs "Worship"

[FabiusMaximus]

Catholics and Orthodox (among others of course) claim that there is a distinct and important differences between worship, reserved to God alone, and veneration, or honor and deference given to Mary, the angels, the saints, and objects like icons and statues.

To me this makes a lot of sense.

However, I’d like to have some clarification from Catholics on these phrases:

“Praised be Jesus and Mary…”
“Praised be the Eucharistic hearts of Jesus and Mary…”

Before I get the endless comments of “the Catechism doesn’t embrace this” or a general rehash of what the distinction of veneration and worship is, could someone explain to me the difference here? I’m not alleging that the Pope or a high Catholic ecclesiastical official officially has said anything remotely similar to this.

“Praised be to Jesus and Mary” - is this worship, or is this veneration? How do you distinguish here that Jesus is being worshiped and Mary only “venerated”? The line appears to be fuzzy and unclear. I’ve heard this being said on a couple occasions by a lay Catholic. Is he misguided?

See, I often here Catholics say that Mary points only to Jesus. OK, fine. But on various occasions, it seems more to me that Jesus and Mary are being put almost on equal footing. Perhaps not intentionally, but it certainly appears that way. How do you draw the line? If you’re “praising” two people, who is getting the “better praise”?

Additionally, when Mary at Fatíma stated that her “Immaculate Heart will triumph” - what does she mean here? What is her immaculate heart? Why isn’t she saying that Christ’s sacred heart will triumph? Isn’t she pointing to herself here, and not to Jesus?

If this post appears combative, I apologize ahead of time, that’s not my intention. I’m asking honest questions, and I haven’t really gotten a straight answer yet.

 

[pablope]

Catholics and Orthodox (among others of course) claim that there is a distinct and important differences between worship, reserved to God alone, and veneration, or honor and deference given to Mary, the angels, the saints, and objects like icons and statues.

To me this makes a lot of sense.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Catholics and Orthodox (among others of course) claim that there is a distinct and important differences between worship, reserved to God alone, and veneration, or honor and deference given to Mary, the angels, the saints, and objects like icons and statues.

To me this makes a lot of sense.

However, I’d like to have some clarification from Catholics on these phrases:

“Praised be Jesus and Mary…”
“Praised be the Eucharistic hearts of Jesus and Mary…”

Before I get the endless comments of “the Catechism doesn’t embrace this” or a general rehash of what the distinction of veneration and worship is, could someone explain to me the difference here? I’m not alleging that the Pope or a high Catholic ecclesiastical official officially has said anything remotely similar to this.

“Praised be to Jesus and Mary” - is this worship, or is this veneration? How do you distinguish here that Jesus is being worshiped and Mary only “venerated”? The line appears to be fuzzy and unclear. I’ve heard this being said on a couple occasions by a lay Catholic. Is he misguided?

From an Orthodox perspective, saints (and of course, the Theotokos) are often praised and lauded. I think in this case, one could say that both the Virgin Mary and Jesus are being venerated, but that it’s possible that neither is being specifically worshipped in saying, “praise to Jesus and Mary,” since praise is a rather neutral term that doesn’t suggest worship.

I can’t really help you with this whole Eucharistic heart stuff, as I’m not sure what that’s supposed to be. A lot of Catholic devotions (immaculate heart, sacred heart, etc.) just seem very strange to me, I guess.

See, I often here Catholics say that Mary points only to Jesus. OK, fine. But on various occasions, it seems more to me that Jesus and Mary are being put almost on equal footing. Perhaps not intentionally, but it certainly appears that way. How do you draw the line? If you’re “praising” two people, who is getting the “better praise”?

I think this kind of comes down to the old question: if a man pulls you from a burning building, do you thank him for saving you, or say that God is your only savior? It’s obvious that both have saved you, but in different ways, and they receive different levels of praise accordingly. Similarly, although I reverence my icon of Christ and my icon of the Theotokos in pretty much the same fashion, it’s pretty clear who the sole Savior is, even though there is recognition that both are important in saving me in different ways (one through bearing God into the world and through interceding for us in prayer, and the other through obviously being Christ and the only Savior of mankind). Giving praise or veneration to both doesn’t necessarily imply any sort of equality.

Additionally, when Mary at Fatíma stated that her “Immaculate Heart will triumph” - what does she mean here? What is her immaculate heart? Why isn’t she saying that Christ’s sacred heart will triumph? Isn’t she pointing to herself here, and not to Jesus?

If this post appears combative, I apologize ahead of time, that’s not my intention. I’m asking honest questions, and I haven’t really gotten a straight answer yet.

Can’t help you with this one, as I don’t really understand the Fatima apparitions either. The whole thought of the Virgin Mary asking the Catholics to convert an already Christian country rubs me the wrong way.

 

[Miriam1947]

youtube.com/watch?v=0TEL_7TS5FE

The Magnificat.

Holy is His Name - John Michael Talbot

I love this. In fact I am nutz and I freely admit it. I watch and listen to this all the time.

What is sad, is that some do not realize that this comes from Luke.

Oh no, you are actually giving regard and respect to the Virgin Mary, Mother of Jesus, Mother of God.

Unless they think that Jesus is not actually God.

Okay I’ll admit, I post this everywhere so that it is always available to me. Selfish I know but, that’s just who I am.

 

[JimmytheButcher]

However, I’d like to have some clarification from Catholics on these phrases:

“Praised be Jesus and Mary…”
“Praised be the Eucharistic hearts of Jesus and Mary…”

Friend,

Perhaps an old New England Protestant nursery rhyme will help. I hope it does.

Mary had a little lamb. His fleece was white as snow.
And, everywhere that Mary went the lamb was sure to go.
…
Why does the lamb love Mary so?
Why Mary loves the lamb you know?

St. Louis de Montfort provides the answer to your question in depth in his treatise ‘True Devotion to Mary’. He is a Doctor of the Church and is considered the guy to goto on this type of question.

You can find a copy of it online. Yet, I am Catholic and so I’ve always enjoyed the tactile feel of paper.

montfort.org.uk/Writings/MontWork.html

ad Iesu per Mariam… I couldn’t resist.

 

[A_Catholic]

The “Eucharistic Hearts of Jesus and Mary”? I’ve never heard this one before. Could you give some sort of backup for it?

Mary is God’s greatest creation because she was created in complete perfection, no sin or imperfection of any kind, and she remained in that state. In fact, it is said that Mary is greater than all of God’s other creation combined.

Here is a link to a really excellent article explaining Mary’s place in the Catholic’s life.

rosary-center.org/ll44n3.htm

One quote from this article:

Catholics have a special devotion to the Virgin Mother of God, because of her unique role in the divine scheme of things because of her extraordinary fullness of grace - greater than that of all the other saints of heaven combined - and because of her great powers of intercession before the throne of God. If she has been exalted far above all others in the gifts that God has bestowed upon her, she is also the most humble, the most grateful, and the most submissive to the divine will. Apart from the sacred humanity of Christ, the pure soul of Mary gives God more glory than all of the rest of creation combined. All that she is, is God’s creation, God’s masterpiece; and in honoring her, we are honoring the God who made her. All her graces on earth and her glory in heaven stem from the unique privilege of her divine motherhood.

Because Mary is completely united with the Trinity - as the Father’s Daughter, the spouse of the Holy Spirit and the Mother of Jesus - whenever we give glory to Mary, we are giving glory directly to God. And she is constantly interceding for us. Look into any of the approved apparitions. She appears as a most loving mother, reaching out to her children and begging them to come back to her Son. Outside of salvation itself, Mary is the greatest gift we have been given.

Yet, worship is reserved to God alone. We receive salvation only from our Creator. Mary is a conduit of mercy and salvation, but it all originates with God. When we pray, we ask Mary to pray for us, but we ask God to have mercy on us. But again, because Mary is so united with God, to unite ourselves with her is to be united to God.

I hope this helps.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Thank you all for your replies. I apologize for being so late in responding:

Can you post the whole prayer?

Language and context, my friend…and the time the prayer was written. Meaning of language change over time…gay means happy/glad before…and gay now means differently now.

I do not think the lay catholic is misguided. For lifelong catholics, such language do not pose a problem, as when these words are said in prayer, in our hearts are contained what is really meant by those words. To a non-catholic, they do seem outlandish.

Dear brother,
I wouldn’t say it was part of a prayer exactly, more part of an article. A Catholic I know gets postings from someone else, usually on Mary, and those posts open up with “Praised be the United Hearts of Jesus and Mary…” To me it seems to elevate Mary excessively.

Do you have the whole quote? There are other qoutes from Fatima…from what I vaguely remember, and I will paraphase…“it is the will of the Son that her Immaculate Heart will triumph…” or something to this effect.

It was:*** “Finally my Immaculate Heart will triumph!”***

I think this kind of comes down to the old question: if a man pulls you from a burning building, do you thank him for saving you, or say that God is your only savior? It’s obvious that both have saved you, but in different ways, and they receive different levels of praise accordingly. Similarly, although I reverence my icon of Christ and my icon of the Theotokos in pretty much the same fashion, it’s pretty clear who the sole Savior is, even though there is recognition that both are important in saving me in different ways (one through bearing God into the world and through interceding for us in prayer, and the other through obviously being Christ and the only Savior of mankind). Giving praise or veneration to both doesn’t necessarily imply any sort of equality.

Fair enough, I can see your point here. I wouldn’t necessarily have a problem with this, and I don’t have an issue with recognizing that Mary and the saints fulfill special roles, and can do great things by God’s power, with our requests for intercession. There’s just something about these devotions that leave me a bit perplexed. I’ve never had this issue with Orthodoxy. Perhaps I haven’t been around enough lay Orthodox to have witnessed it, but it just has never seemed to me that they ever exaggerate her role.

Can’t help you with this one, as I don’t really understand the Fatima apparitions either. The whole thought of the Virgin Mary asking the Catholics to convert an already Christian country rubs me the wrong way.

I can understand that. But then again when you think you’re ‘the True Church’ it makes more sense. I suppose the same could be said with regards to the Orthodox Church.

@jimmythebutcher

St. Louis de Montfort provides the answer to your question in depth in his treatise ‘True Devotion to Mary’. He is a Doctor of the Church and is considered the guy to goto on this type of question.

I’ll check it out, thanks for the link.
And I must be stupid, but I never made the connection on the nursery rhyme ‘Mary had a little lamb’ with Christianity, but it makes so much sense, haha.

The “Eucharistic Hearts of Jesus and Mary”? I’ve never heard this one before. Could you give some sort of backup for it?

It was the opening on certain articles regarding Marian devotion.

Yet, worship is reserved to God alone. We receive salvation only from our Creator. Mary is a conduit of mercy and salvation, but it all originates with God. When we pray, we ask Mary to pray for us, but we ask God to have mercy on us. But again, because Mary is so united with God, to unite ourselves with her is to be united to God.

My objection isn’t that Mary has a special role, it’s that it appears to me that that role is over-emphasized, and that certain people tend to excessively elevate the role of Mary to quasi-divinity.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Fair enough, I can see your point here. I wouldn’t necessarily have a problem with this, and I don’t have an issue with recognizing that Mary and the saints fulfill special roles, and can do great things by God’s power, with our requests for intercession. There’s just something about these devotions that leave me a bit perplexed. I’ve never had this issue with Orthodoxy. Perhaps I haven’t been around enough lay Orthodox to have witnessed it, but it just has never seemed to me that they ever exaggerate her role.

I think you might be more comfortable with the Orthodox veneration of Mary precisely because most “devotions” to her in the East trend to be services like the paraklesis and the akathist hymn, which are typically pretty hard to misconstrue.

I can understand that. But then again when you think you’re ‘the True Church’ it makes more sense. I suppose the same could be said with regards to the Orthodox Church.

Perhaps, but all of this “pray for the conversion of Russia” stuff smacks of the idea that the Orthodox are on the same level as heathens. I guess I wouldn’t have as much of a problem with it if it weren’t for the fact that such words are attributed to an apparition of the Virgin Mary. Fatima in general (especially the timely convenience of the release of the second secret and the controversy surrounding the third secret) just disturbs me, as do quite a few other 20th century Marian apparitions. Why do the apparitions always have to be so full of messages from the Virgin Mary? It’s like the Virgin Mary has become some sort of cosmic soothsayer, and I just find it highly improper.

 

[Marybeloved]

Perhaps, but all of this “pray for the conversion of Russia” stuff smacks of the idea that the Orthodox are on the same level as heathens.

This is not true- The Virgin was prophesying a reign of terror that was just about to occur in Russia in which the Christian faith there (which is Orthodox) and in Eastern Europe under the Soviet union (Both Orthodox and Catholic) was about to suffer nearly 80 years of persecution and imposed atheism.

I don’t understand why anyone would say that it was about Orthodox Christians converting, when this faith was very nearly destroyed by atheistic communism for a very long and dark period of time. Russia in the Apparition clearly signifies the Political system and “the errors” she would spread throughout the world. Catholics popularly believe that Communism fell in Russia and Eastern Europe due to the dedication of the world to Mary by Pope John Paul II as requested in the Fatima Apparition and which coincided closely with the fall of communism in Russia (through the great influence of this same Pope)- After which fall, the Christian faith in Russia, which is Orthodox, has risen back to its former vibrancy. Incidentally, it was right after the pope had been miraculously saved from an assassination attempt which was connected to and attributed to Our Lady of Fatima (Long story) that he made the dedication.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

here is the definition of praise:

1. Expression of approval, commendation, or admiration.

So that doesn’t suggest worship.

Next, Mary’s heart is immaculate from the grace of God (immaculate conception). Her heart will triumph by the grace of God, like how Christians on earth will triumph evil by the grace of God.

 

[Ginger2]

I have posted this before to demonstrate why Protestants feel uncomfortable with Cathoilic veneration to Mary. Here it is again:

This is a line by line comparision of the Psalms of David 148 &The Psalters of Mary 148:

1
Hallelujah! 1 Praise the LORD from the heavens; give praise in the heights.
Let us praise Our Lady in the heavens: glorify her in the highest.

2
Praise him, all you angels; give praise, all you hosts.
Praise her, all ye men and beasts: birds of the air, and fishes of the sea.

3
Praise him, sun and moon; give praise, all shining stars.
Praise her, sun and moon: stars, and the orbs of the planets.

4
Praise him, highest heavens, you waters above the heavens.
Praise her, Cherubim and Seraphim: thrones and dominations and powers.

5
Let them all praise the LORD’S name; for the LORD
Praise her, all ye legions of angels: praise her all order of heavenly
dwellers.

and more:

15
Preserve me, O Lord, for I have put my trust in thee.
Preserve me, O Lady, for I have hoped in thee:

25
Judge me, O Lord, for I have walked in my innocence:
Judge me, O Lady, for I have departed from my innocence:

53
Save me, O God, by thy name, and judge me in thy strength
O Lady, save me in thy name: and deliver me from my injustices.

Please note: David was praying to God and the name of God is replaced with reference to Mary in the Psalters. The Catholic Church does not condemn this nor even try to distance themselves from those who promote it.

So you can see why we would question this practice.

 

[ProVobis]

Strictly a translation issue. (So what’s new?) Some good discussions on this.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=574641&highlight=colere

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=568006&highlight=colere

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=557433&highlight=colere

 

[CEM5]

Catholics and Orthodox (among others of course) claim that there is a distinct and important differences between worship, reserved to God alone, and veneration, or honor and deference given to Mary, the angels, the saints, and objects like icons and statues.

To me this makes a lot of sense.

However, I’d like to have some clarification from Catholics on these phrases:

“Praised be Jesus and Mary…”
“Praised be the Eucharistic hearts of Jesus and Mary…”

Before I get the endless comments of “the Catechism doesn’t embrace this” or a general rehash of what the distinction of veneration and worship is, could someone explain to me the difference here? I’m not alleging that the Pope or a high Catholic ecclesiastical official officially has said anything remotely similar to this.

“Praised be to Jesus and Mary” - is this worship, or is this veneration? How do you distinguish here that Jesus is being worshiped and Mary only “venerated”? The line appears to be fuzzy and unclear. I’ve heard this being said on a couple occasions by a lay Catholic. Is he misguided?

See, I often here Catholics say that Mary points only to Jesus. OK, fine. But on various occasions, it seems more to me that Jesus and Mary are being put almost on equal footing. Perhaps not intentionally, but it certainly appears that way. How do you draw the line? If you’re “praising” two people, who is getting the “better praise”?

Additionally, when Mary at Fatíma stated that her “Immaculate Heart will triumph” - what does she mean here? What is her immaculate heart? Why isn’t she saying that Christ’s sacred heart will triumph? Isn’t she pointing to herself here, and not to Jesus?

If this post appears combative, I apologize ahead of time, that’s not my intention. I’m asking honest questions, and I haven’t really gotten a straight answer yet.

I just prepared this subject and taught it last week in RCIA, so in part, I’ll present some of it.

Saints in the Roman Catholic Church are venerated – not worshipped – as some mistakenly believe.

English language tends to fall short when it comes to the use of certain words. For example, we have one word for love, yet we use this word interchangeably to describe many different “feelings” of love. We say, “I love my parents”, or “I love chocolate” or even, “I love my spouse”, yet all these different phrases of love do not have the same definition.

Centuries ago, it may have been said that a saint gets “worship”, because the word came from the Old English weorthscipe, which simply meant “worthy of honour” or “worthy of respect”. That is why British speakers of English used to say “Your Worship” as a title of courtesy to people in a position of honour or power (such as Kings), and why we still address a judge as “Your Honour”.

Today, of course, worship means only our attitude to God Almighty, and it is to God alone whom we give all highest honour and supreme worship. In Latin, which is richer than English in meanings of words, the worship owed to God alone is called LATRIA, a word that has its roots in the ancient Greek word, latreía, meaning the adoration that humans owe to the divine. It’s a matter of acknowledging your total dependence upon God. The respect that we owe to the saints is a totally different kind of attitude; it’s called DULIA, which means “appropriate” or “fitting and proper” as when you say that someone acts dutifully, or that a trial was handled with due process. In an everyday sense of the word, dulia is our demeanour in court or meeting the President; it’s much more like what you’d call courtesy than what you’d call worship. Dulia comes from the Greek word douleia, meaning “service” or “slave”. In Luke 1:38, 48 Mary’s description of herself as doule translates as “handmaiden” / “female slave”.

For Mary, the Mother of God, we have a variation of dulia that is often misunderstood: HYPERDULIA. This is a higher kind of reverence that’s given only to Mary, who is considered first among the saints. Note that this is basically dulia, only higher. [The word hyper comes from the Greek: hypér “over”,” above”]. It is an entirely different thing from latria, and it can’t lessen the unique honour owed to God. It’s never correct to say that the Church worships Mary or the Saints – it hasn’t been correct since people stopped speaking Old English, anyway. In recognition of Mary’s unique relationship with God, the Church gives to Mary a unique reverence notably higher than the respect given to other saints. Reverence means: a feeling or attitude of deep respect tinged with awe; veneration; honour.]

From the beginning of the Church era, Christians began to venerate the martyrs as saints. Venerate means to hold in deep respect and honour in recognition of qualities of holiness, excellence, wisdom, etc.] They believed that the martyrs, (the word comes from the Greek, meaning WITNESS) who suffered and died for their unshakable belief in Christ, went straight to heaven and could therefore be effective as intercessors for the living. By the 3rd century the veneration of the martyr saints was already common. [An intercessor is one who will intercede (plead or request) or offer petitionary prayers to God on behalf of others.]

to be continued…

 

[CEM5]

continued…

As for Mary and her immaculate heart, we have to recall that Mary was conceived immaculately.

The Immaculate Conception of Mary is not to be confused with the Virgin Birth of Jesus. Mary was conceived from the marital union of her father and mother, whereas Jesus was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit. The Immaculate Conception means that Mary was preserved from the stain of original sin at the moment of her conception. She needed a saviour just as all of us do; however, God ensured that she would be pure and free of original sin without having to be baptized since she was to be the holy vessel that would carry Jesus, God’s son, in her holy womb. God does not dwell in sin.

Because Jesus is the King in heaven, it makes sense that Mary would be considered a Queen. Therefore, she is given the title: Queen of Heaven. Revelation shows her with a crown of twelve stars on her head, representing the twelve tribes and twelve apostles. (Rev. 12:1)

Since the Old Covenant kingdom of David is a prototype of the New Covenant Kingdom of Christ, we can look to the role of the queen in the Old as a foreshadowing of her role in the New. In the Davidic kingdom, the Queen Mother (Hebrew: Gebirah) would sit at the king’s right hand (1 Kings 2:19). The Queen would also intercede before the king on the people’s behalf. When she would present her petition to the king, the king would not refuse her (1 Kings 2:17). The king would also bow down to the Queen Mother as a gesture of honour (1 Kings 2:19). As God reveals through Scripture, the king tells his Queen Mother: “Make your request, my mother; for I will not refuse you" (1 Kings 2:20). This is also why Jesus honoured His mother at the Wedding Feast of Cana, and turned the water into wine.** She was instrumental in this first miracle. Without her intercession this miracle would not have taken place. **John 2:3-5
3 When the wine gave out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” 4 And Jesus said to her, “Woman, what concern is that to you and to me? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”
Because Mary intercedes to Jesus on behalf of all of us, she is also given the title: Mediatrix. This is a female mediator; one who conveys (carries) our prayers as an advocate, to Jesus. She prays for the lost sheep so that her Son may help them come to Him. Jesus prays for those who follow Him, He does not pray for the whole world. See

John 17:6-9
6 "I have made your name known to those whom you gave me from the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me is from you; 8 for the words that you gave to me I have given to them, and they have received them and know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. 9 I am asking on their behalf; I am not asking on behalf of the world, but on behalf of those whom you gave me, because they are yours.

Mary is a finger pointing to her beloved, divine Son, bidding us come to Him in all our needs, and we should always listen to her words: “Do whatever He tells (us)”.

Blessings,
CEM

 

[Cavaradossi]

I have posted this before to demonstrate why Protestants feel uncomfortable with Cathoilic veneration to Mary. Here it is again:

This is a line by line comparision of the Psalms of David 148 &The Psalters of Mary 148:

1
Hallelujah! 1 Praise the LORD from the heavens; give praise in the heights.
Let us praise Our Lady in the heavens: glorify her in the highest.

2
Praise him, all you angels; give praise, all you hosts.
Praise her, all ye men and beasts: birds of the air, and fishes of the sea.

3
Praise him, sun and moon; give praise, all shining stars.
Praise her, sun and moon: stars, and the orbs of the planets.

4
Praise him, highest heavens, you waters above the heavens.
Praise her, Cherubim and Seraphim: thrones and dominations and powers.

5
Let them all praise the LORD’S name; for the LORD
Praise her, all ye legions of angels: praise her all order of heavenly
dwellers.

and more:

15
Preserve me, O Lord, for I have put my trust in thee.
Preserve me, O Lady, for I have hoped in thee:

25
Judge me, O Lord, for I have walked in my innocence:
Judge me, O Lady, for I have departed from my innocence:

53
Save me, O God, by thy name, and judge me in thy strength
O Lady, save me in thy name: and deliver me from my injustices.

Please note: David was praying to God and the name of God is replaced with reference to Mary in the Psalters. The Catholic Church does not condemn this nor even try to distance themselves from those who promote it.

So you can see why we would question this practice.

Yet they don’t have any problem with the apostles saying that they have saved people in the New Testament. Perhaps if Protestants would read the New Testament more often, they would realize that plenty of other people besides Jesus “save” (and it’s not a translation issue, as it’s the same way in Greek with soson; in fact, Jesus even tells people that they are saved after he heals them, although King James’ translators decided to make him say that they are healed in the KJV).

Of course if your objection is that there is a psalter with all references to God replaced by “Lady” I can see how that might be problematic.

 

[pablope]

I have posted this before to demonstrate why Protestants feel uncomfortable with Cathoilic veneration to Mary. Here it is again:

Please note: David was praying to God and the name of God is replaced with reference to Mary in the Psalters. The Catholic Church does not condemn this nor even try to distance themselves from those who promote it.

So you can see why we would question this practice.

From another thread…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=568006&highlight=colere

*It comes down to the concept of worship. Those who accuse Catholics of Mary-worship are typically Protestants. Catholics and Protestants have different definitions of worship. To a Protestant, worship is a combination of prayer, hymn-singing, and sermon-giving. So when they see Catholics say the Hail Mary, sing Hail Holy Queen Enthroned Above, and hear a sermon on the Immaculate Conception, it meets their definition of worship. But Catholics see worship as sacrifice. Sacrifice is the center of the Catholic religion, whereas it does not exist in Protestantism. The Mass is seen as the means of worship, and the Mass is never offered to Mary or any other saint for that matter. It is an entirely different sort of worship. Thing is, if you use the first definition of worship, then yes, Catholics worship Mary. But Catholics don’t see it that way, because never do Catholics offer sacrifice to her. Sacrifice or hymn-singing. That’s the difference. *

*Coming from protestantism, this is probably the best summary I’ve read so far of what I and many of my protestant family and friends believed of the Catholic Church and Mary devotion.

I told one of my protestant co-workers the other day that I was going to go to RCIA to get into the Catholic Church. Her response was “really?”, but with a look and tone like she was sorry for me, like I’d lost a puppy or something. She then brought up the fact that Catholic worship idols. I very quickly said “no, they don’t”. Her response was “eh, well yeah they do” and then quickly changed the subject.

It took me a while to see the difference in worship from protestantism to Catholicism, but there is a significant difference.

I’ve said this before: I think one additional problem may be the fact that Catholics kind of have their own lingo in regards to Mary. I’ve heard some say “OH, Mary has blessed me and my family so much!!”. When I first heard this, my protestant part came up and freaked out, but then I remembered that they mean that Mary has done much successful intercession for her and her family. So, I think that aside from the misunderstandings of what worship is, as well as the lingo that Catholics have, it kind of deters protestants and makes them think that Mary is worshiped by Catholics. *

 

[pablope]

I have posted this before to demonstrate why Protestants feel uncomfortable with Cathoilic veneration to Mary. Here it is again:

Please note: David was praying to God and the name of God is replaced with reference to Mary in the Psalters. The Catholic Church does not condemn this nor even try to distance themselves from those who promote it.

So you can see why we would question this practice.

Well…thank you for posting this…but I wonder why you did not bother to post also the response given by another to your previous post…so makes me wonder what posted this in the first place, without the reply…which I am posting below:

*This part must be understood in context and literary styles of the times of its composition- hyperbole is the term to describe the style.

For example,
Judge me, O Lady, for I have departed from my innocence:
St. Bonaventure does not mean here that Mary is the judge of the soul, he couldn’t! He knew the Catholic faith- She was not even a priest and could not hear confessions (which involves at least a little bit of judging by the priest). But most importantly, God and Christ alone are judge.
-He probably means something like reprove me (as a fellow sister or loving mother) for dishonoring God- Help me to awaken to how far I’ve betrayed Christ, unlike you who never soiled your innocence before him.

Preserve me, O Lady, for I have hoped in thee:
He does not mean that Mary is the source of his existence, nor that she sustains him- Again, he couldn’t! He knew the Catholic faith- What he means is help me with prayers, or preserve me with prayers (which means the graces of God) for I need them and expect them from you (I know you cannot deny my requests)

O Lady, save me in thy name: and deliver me from my injustices
Save can also mean simply help- not save from sins, which the Saint can never attribute to anyone but God, because he must have known the catholic faith. This prayer would just mean take up my problems like your own, in your own initiative, and privilege before Christ as his mother, and help me in my troubles- Which is no problem- The saints can help.

**I wanted to make sure I explained these three lines because they may be misleading and can cause scandal if not understood.

Also, the psalms are the Standard of prayer in the Church- In fact they are the Church’s official prayer book- So to use them as the standard for crafting and composing prayer and devotions is no surprise. The Saint has no intention of replacing God (He loved him deeply-that’s why he’s a Saint) but merely to compose beautiful prayer to Our Lady in the poetry of and language of the best examples we have (the psalms). It’s the language of a love letter and a poem (which is always exaggerated) to one who has probably helped him numerous times in his life and whom he praises as the blessed one.

You can imagine a poem by a man to a woman he loves, which says -

How could I ever live without you? You’re my sun, moon and stars!

Or

Will you not save me from this misery? I can’t bear to be apart from you!

It’s poetic language of love and must be understood that way- It certainly is not worship. The important thing to learn is that Catholic faith is clear. No worship due to God alone, “latria”, is given to anyone but God.*

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=595744&page=34

 

[Ginger2]

…*It comes down to the concept of worship. … if you use the first definition of worship, then yes, Catholics worship Mary. But Catholics don’t see it that way, because never do Catholics offer sacrifice to her. Sacrifice or hymn-singing. That’s the difference. *

Catholics do sing hymns to Mary. I was at a Resurrection Sunday service and the first song was about Mary, but never mentioned Jesus. Truthfully, I was offended. I don’t remember singing songs about Mary when I was a child…actually, the only one I do remember was, “This is my body, given for your freedom. This is my blood which was shed for all of mankind. Take all and eat til the day of my return….”

Anyway, I noticed the song for two reasons. I thought it was inappropriate to sing a song to Mary first, (they sang about Jesus in the next song) and I thought it odd that it didn’t mention Jesus.

So, I think other Catholics would disagree about singing being worship.

 

[Ginger2]

Yet they don’t have any problem with the apostles saying that they have saved people in the New Testament.

Verses please.

Perhaps if Protestants would read the New Testament more often, they would realize that plenty of other people besides Jesus “save”

Only Jesus saves. There is no other name under heaven by which men are saved. Only Jesus!

… in fact, Jesus even tells people that they are saved after he heals them, …

So, any one who physically heals another can claim they saved the person’s immortal soul?

I believe there were 10 lepers who were healed and only one came back to thank Jesus. I don’t remember Jesus stating that all ten were saved, simply because they were healed.
The Apostles were given power to preach the Word. Their gifts of healing and such were to witness they were truly sent from God.

Of course if your objection is that there is a psalter with all references to God replaced by “Lady” I can see how that might be problematic.

Yes it is.

 

[ANNE_2]

The basic answer to your question is in the very definition and dictinct difference between:
Veneration and Worshop.

CCC - " 2135 “You shall worship the Lord your God” (Mt 4:10).
Adoring God, praying to him, offering him the worship that belongs to him, fulfilling the promises and vows made to him are acts of the virtue of religion which fall under obedience to the first commandment."

Veneration is not adoration or worship. It is the act of showing profound respect or reverence.