Imposive Catholicism

[Lilsheep88]

Since us faithful believe that the souls of human beings are more important than our Earthly / temporal status… My question is… is imposing our faith either coercivelly or aggresively persuasive wrong? I view myself as a modern day crusader and I often think that Catholicism is in constant competition with false religions in a boxing match and we have to **“knock them all out” ** because we are the one true faith. We have to convert as many of our fellow men as possible…

Is imposive Catholicism legitimate for the sake of the salvation of souls?
On a personal / group and state level?
Can we Catholics, either as a group or as individuals take part in “shove your throat down” conversions In the same way Muslims often impose their faith on the unbelievers (kaffirs) ?? Like a less radical form of the inquisition?

However, I dont talk about taking it to the level of cutting peoples heads off, or desecrating foreign lands (like the Spanish did).

Just in an arguementative or forceful way… For instance, talking down protestants or making confrontational declarations that other religions are false. Mass / aggressive evangalizing that often go directly head on against non-Catholic / secular elements? SAINT PAUL STYLE EVANGELIZING. In terms of government… Would it be wrong to supress “non” Catholic elements of a society forcefully? For instance, active measures that limit secularism , atlhough this may seem “undemocratic”

As in the case of the Philippines, a devout Catholic country… I believe that that country should remain strong in faith and should have an elected government which is backed strongly by the church and commit to the maintainance of its Catholic identity (ie: keeping the country Protestant and Muslim Free and not let secular elements like abortion infiltrate society.) even if it may seem “against the constitution”

Again, (the measures) may seem evil, or undemocartic, or immoral… but if the tradeoff were the salvation of souls and the ends justified the means, would this be legitimate?

Thoughts?

 

[Trishie]

Faith is a gift form God.
We respect the fact that faith is a gift that not all have yet received and as St Francis of Assisi said, “Preach, and if necessary, use words.”
He meant that we must ‘teach’ by living our Catholic lives authentically and faithfully.

We can respectfully refute and explain, but we cannot force our faith on others.

We should support Christian values and work for freedom of religion and of conscience in our society.
We can and must pray for others that they will receive and accept the gift of faith, and they they will live it faithfully and authentically.

 

[DavidFilmer]

First, the common good presupposes respect for the person as such. In the name of the common good, public authorities are bound to respect the fundamental and inalienable rights of the human person. Society should permit each of its members to fulfill his vocation. In particular, the common good resides in the conditions for the exercise of the natural freedoms indispensable for the development of the human vocation, such as “the right to act according to a sound norm of conscience and to safeguard . . . privacy, and rightful freedom also in matters of religion.” [CCC #1907]

The Church wants converts, not conscripts. Ideally, of course, it would be best if everyone was Catholic - no conversions necessary. But people must be allowed to choose the Church, not be bullied into the Church.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Every time I think I’m no longer afraid of being Catholic you all go ahead and post these kinds of threads. What the heck are you trying to do to me???

Anyway, original poster makes a good point. A terrifying point, but a good one IMO.

Me after the next great “religious cleansing” (as opposed to “ethnic” cleansing") → :stretcher: LOL.

 

[Lilsheep88]

My girl is a methodist, and I always lambast her on how shes following the wrong faith… Shes probably thinking that Ive turned crazy upon taking this spiritual path… Quite frankly she is getting annoyed of it, with all the nagging, all the lectures I give her about Protestants being schismatics, but I do feel that her soul is more important than her opinions about me. She has invited me to her church several times but I constantly coldly responded that I will never do so because her faith is invalid in my eyes. It has to be the other way around, no exceptions.

 

[Petergee]

How exactly does one “desecrate foreign lands”?

And please produce any evidence of any Spanish person doing so in order to “impose Catholicism”.

 

[agnes_therese]

. . . we have to **“knock them all out” ** because we are the one true faith. We have to convert as many of our fellow men as possible…

Can we Catholics, either as a group or as individuals take part in “shove your throat down” conversions In the same way Muslims often impose their faith on the unbelievers (kaffirs) ?? Like a less radical form of the inquisition?

For instance, talking down protestants or making confrontational declarations that other religions are false. Mass / aggressive evangalizing that often go directly head on against non-Catholic / secular elements? In terms of government… Would it be wrong to supress “non” Catholic elements of a society forcefully? For instance, active measures that limit secularism , atlhough this may seem “undemocratic”

These sound like excellent methods – if your goal is to alienate non-Catholics and make sure they never have any interest in converting.

My :twocents:

 

[agnes_therese]

My girl is a methodist, and I always lambast her on how shes following the wrong faith… Shes probably thinking that Ive turned crazy upon taking this spiritual path… Quite frankly she is getting annoyed of it, with all the nagging, all the lectures I give her about Protestants being schismatics, but I do feel that her soul is more important than her opinions about me. She has invited me to her church several times but I constantly coldly responded that I will never do so because her faith is invalid in my eyes. It has to be the other way around, no exceptions.

I hope you were being sarcastic. Otherwise, you’re well on the road to guaranteeing she will never have any interest in Catholicism, which belies your claim of concern for her soul.

 

[JRKH]

**“Do unto others as you would have others do unto you”

“Love your neighbor as yourself”**

Contained in these two very similar statements is the answer to the OP’s question.

Imposing faith is not treating another as you wish to be treated.
Suppressing the faith of others does not produce love but rather produces hate.

The foundational principle of our faith in action is Love.

Love, to be properly applied, must draw others toward it. It must never push.

Peace
James

 

[FightingFat]

Al Qur’an 2:256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing.

Of course the trouble with Islam is that God’s absolute transcendence means that He is not bound even by his own word, and can act in ways contrary to reason, including self-contradiction.

This is a point which was eloquently made by the Holy Father in his infamous Regensburg lecture on 12 September 2006. The pontiff was comparing apparently contradictory passages from the Qur’an, the one I have quoted above which states that “There is no compulsion in religion”, the other being that it is acceptable to “spread the faith through violence”. The pontiff argued the latter teaching to be unreasonable and advocated that religious conversion should take place through the use of reason. His larger point here was that, generally speaking, in Christianity, God is understood to act in accordance with reason, while in Islam God’s actions are arbitrary; He can do good or evil as He wills. Theologically, this is how Muslims justify acts of terrorism. They are commanded by God and therefore legitimate. You see in Islam there is only God’s will, a thing is good because God says it is good (of course the trouble here is who decides or interprets what God is saying) where as Christianity says that we can know what is objectively right and wrong by our reason, enlightened by God, and God doesn’t do evil, evil rather is the privation of due good.

At the end of his lecture, the Pope said, “It is to the great logos, to this breadth of reason, that we invite our partners in the dialogue of cultures.”

 

[Cavaradossi]

Since us faithful believe that the souls of human beings are more important than our Earthly / temporal status… My question is… is imposing our faith either coercivelly or aggresively persuasive wrong? I view myself as a modern day crusader and I often think that Catholicism is in constant competition with false religions in a boxing match and we have to **“knock them all out” ** because we are the one true faith. We have to convert as many of our fellow men as possible…

Is imposive Catholicism legitimate for the sake of the salvation of souls?
On a personal / group and state level?
Can we Catholics, either as a group or as individuals take part in “shove your throat down” conversions In the same way Muslims often impose their faith on the unbelievers (kaffirs) ?? Like a less radical form of the inquisition?

However, I dont talk about taking it to the level of cutting peoples heads off, or desecrating foreign lands (like the Spanish did).

Just in an arguementative or forceful way… For instance, talking down protestants or making confrontational declarations that other religions are false. Mass / aggressive evangalizing that often go directly head on against non-Catholic / secular elements? SAINT PAUL STYLE EVANGELIZING. In terms of government… Would it be wrong to supress “non” Catholic elements of a society forcefully? For instance, active measures that limit secularism , atlhough this may seem “undemocratic”

As in the case of the Philippines, a devout Catholic country… I believe that that country should remain strong in faith and should have an elected government which is backed strongly by the church and commit to the maintainance of its Catholic identity (ie: keeping the country Protestant and Muslim Free and not let secular elements like abortion infiltrate society.) even if it may seem “against the constitution”

Again, (the measures) may seem evil, or undemocartic, or immoral… but if the tradeoff were the salvation of souls and the ends justified the means, would this be legitimate?

Thoughts?

You cannot by any means force people into loving God. This can only come from genuine repentance, a genuine change of heart. What you propose—spreading Christianity by force—is potentially dangerous. It could bring people to damnation because such heavy-handed tactics might cause them to reject Christ. St. Paul definitely did not evangelize in any of the ways you have proposed (especially not by using the secular government, the very same one by which he was martyred).

 

[bmullins]

Every time I think I’m no longer afraid of being Catholic you all go ahead and post these kinds of threads. What the heck are you trying to do to me???

Anyway, original poster makes a good point. A terrifying point, but a good one IMO.

Me after the next great “religious cleansing” (as opposed to “ethnic” cleansing") → :stretcher: LOL.

Don’t hold Catholicism accountable for it’s members. Look for what the church teaches and not how it’s members act. Orthodoxy is much more important than orthopraxy.

To the OP, conversion and conviction is not our job. That is the job of the Holy Spirit. God calls all men, and he leads them as he chooses. We give the truth, we share in love, and we live as an example. God will do the rest.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Lilsheep88:

Just in an arguementative or forceful way… For instance, talking down protestants or making confrontational declarations that other religions are false. Mass / aggressive evangalizing that often go directly head on against non-Catholic / secular elements? SAINT PAUL STYLE EVANGELIZING.

There are a couple of difficulties with your thoughts above.

You should consider other Christian religions as accomplishing some good. Your real enemy is the liberal secular world that has no use for religion of any kind. At least the evangelicals and others are on our side in THIS battle. Also, St. Paul’s world was very different from ours. He was spreading the Gospel to people who NEVER heard it before. Today we are in conflict over various doctrines, but the Gospel message itself is known, at least to some extent. So we have to take the world we have been given, and deal with it accordingly. Not as St. Paul did; Especially since St. Paul had a very unique commission from God Himself.

However, evangelizing is still very relevant in today’s world. But a more reasonable approach is needed, not a more forceful one. Look at the great Catholic evangelists of our days and take a lesson from them. More recently, Bishop Sheen was responsible for easily thousands of converts in his time. It wasn’t bullying that attracted those converts, but an excellent understanding of the Gospel message, and how to share it.

 

[Ontheway]

God created man in His image. He created body and soul and “it was all good”, as the book of Genesis states. The human body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, so it is not something to be despised. Our job is to make it ready for the Holy Spirit, to cleanse it of sin. So, our struggle in this life is directed against evil, and not against other religions.
God does not impose His will on us. He proposes a new way of life, a better way to live and this is what our job is. Jesus showed this by example, His life and death and resurrection. Our job is similar to this. We take up our cross and show by example what it means to be Catholic. This is what the early Christians did and it is time for us to think how we now, in the 21st century, can follow that path.
The Catholic Church is facing so many challenges now for many reasons. One of those is our own lack of strong faith. When you truly believe that your faith is right and you follow the path to salvation, the path that is spelled out in the Bible and the Catechism, there is no need to struggle with other religions.
We need to demonstrate our faith freely. Hang a rosary in your car window. Put a Catholic radio sticker on your car bumper. The secular culture wants you to believe that you are irrelevant. They want to shut us down. The normal human reaction is to hide and that is what so many of us do. Our reaction needs to be just the opposite.
Show respect for your faith by not dressing down when you go to meet God on Sunday. Can you imagine dressing down to go for a job interview? We all dress down when we go to visit GOD! This show how weak our faith is.
So, don’t cram anything down anyone’s throat. When they challenge you or criticize your faith, listen patiently and reply with something like “God forgive you” or “I’ll keep you in my prayers”.

 

[TimothyH]

I’m not too sure that I feel absolutely comfortable with the first sentance of the original post.

Since us faithful believe that the souls of human beings are more important than our Earthly / temporal status…

I’m not saying that it isn’t true and am struggling to integrate it into the idea of coercive conversion.

But the idea that our earthly existence is secondary to our destiny in heaven has been embraced to such an extent that I hear some take the position that our existence here on earth is a necessary evil only to be endured until our eventual unity with God in heaven.

Creation is the theater of redemption and nothing was created by God that was not good. It is exactly through out human senses - sight and sound as well as the senses of the heart, emotion, intellect - that we receive redemption and holiness.

Our lives are a great gift from God and are not meant only as some sort of purgatory which we are only to endure and struggle through. We experience God through our human bodies and everything which our bodies contain, and that is no small thing. The spirit cannot be divorced from the body. A body without a spirit is a dead body.

I hope this makes some kind of sense. Again, apologies if I go far afield, but I sense that it ties into the original querry re coercion in some way. Just not enough coffee yet to think it through.

-Tim-

 

[mgoforth]

My girl is a methodist, and I always lambast her on how shes following the wrong faith… Shes probably thinking that Ive turned crazy upon taking this spiritual path… Quite frankly she is getting annoyed of it, with all the nagging, all the lectures I give her about Protestants being schismatics, but I do feel that her soul is more important than her opinions about me. She has invited me to her church several times but I constantly coldly responded that I will never do so because her faith is invalid in my eyes. It has to be the other way around, no exceptions.

None of us can read what’s in your heart…but from your statements it seems that you’re more interested (by far) in being “right” than in helping others. In fact, I would guess that the idea of saving another person’s soul is really just an excuse you’re using to legitimize in your own mind these “cold”, “nagging”, “crazy” methods. I’m also guessing, by the “88” in your username, that you’re 23-24 years old. The way you’re treating your girlfriend and your severe idealism fits the drama I remember from that age. Take it from someone not too much older than yourself, you’re actions toward your girlfriend will most likely result in the following:

• She will break up with you.
• She will form a negative opinion of the Catholic Church.
• You will become bitter at her ultimate refusal of YOU and your methods, and you’ll choose to justify your anger by telling yourself that she was “anti-Catholic” all along.
• Your subsequent “crusades” will be filled with even more anger and will drive more loved ones away from you.
• Wash, rinse, repeat…

Do you really want these things? Ask yourself a question. What is this really about - satisfying your pride, or love of the Church and your fellow human beings? I can’t believe the ultimate motive is love, because you’re not acting with love. If you really want to help people come to know the Church, then grow up a bit, stop all the “crusading” and start showing them unconditional love. Jesus said to love our neighbors as ourselves. You would not enjoy being “lambasted” about converting to Methodism, so don’t treat your girlfriend that way either…at least if you want her to remain your girlfriend.

 

[Lilsheep88]

So heres another point. Sorry i had to revive this thread.

What about those children that were born into Catholic families, forced to go to mass on Sundays and that had Catholicism “imposed” on them and had little or no say against it?? For instance, I myself had no say in whether or not I should have recieved baptism or my first communion or my first confession or even my confirmation. Doesnt this count as “imposive”?? What I mean are parents’ so called “responsibility” to pass down tradition to their children. I am not saying I dont appreciate it, but my point is doesnt this also count as coercion? I kmow they do this because parents often view themselves as the caretakers of their children’s physical and spiritual well being as well… And what would differentiate it from parents imposing catholicism down on their children’s throats to strangers doing it to other strangers?? And since God commands us to love one another and everybody is equal and are children of God Dont we ought to act as as “caretakers” of the souls of our nonbelieving brotehrs and sisters?

 

[Nate13]

So heres another point. Sorry i had to revive this thread.

What about those children that were born into Catholic families, forced to go to mass on Sundays and that had Catholicism “imposed” on them and had little or no say against it?? For instance, I myself had no say in whether or not I should have recieved baptism or my first communion or my first confession or even my confirmation.Children who at first, disliked being forced but at a later age came to appreciate the faith? Doesnt this also count as coercion? And what would differentiate it from parents imposing catholicism down on their children’s throats to strangers doing it to other strangers?? Since according to God everybody is equal and are children of God?

That is a biological imperative. Parents teach their kids the skills and knowledge they need to survive because its their job to do so as outlined by nature.

Jesus of course lays down the ultimate penalty for leading children astray when he talks about tying a millstone around the neck of the person that does so and having them jumping into the sea.

As for coercive apologetics, this brings to mind purposefully lying in order to get someone to convert. This is absolutely condemned. I take it you mean something else by that term though hopefully. I would ask you to think for a bit about whether the “hard line” approach is truly the best way in all circumstances to gain souls. It has its place where it can be effective and necessary, but few souls are won this way ultimately. Apologetics is just like diplomacy. Of course your country is completely in the right, but you have to be tactical in how you approach the person you are conversing with. The message has to be given in a way that will most effectively reach the person your talking to, not the way that comes most easily to you. There are 4 different temperaments created by God, that people have for a reason.

 

[Lilsheep88]

Yes but if Jesus says that we are all sheep led by the same sheperd that means we are also Children of One God and are all part of a big happy family… In this sense, everyone can be a mother, a father, a brother or a sister to everyone else. God also commands us to love one another doesnt he?? In that sense there shouldnt be a biological bias towards Earthly family members

So, arent we all called to be caretakers of each others souls and not just each son and daughter’s souls? And shouldnt the caretaker role transcend traditional family structures??

That is a biological imperative. Parents teach their kids the skills and knowledge they need to survive because its their job to do so as outlined by nature.

Jesus of course lays down the ultimate penalty for leading children astray when he talks about tying a millstone around the neck of the person that does so and having them jumping into the sea.

As for coercive apologetics, this brings to mind purposefully lying in order to get someone to convert. This is absolutely condemned. I take it you mean something else by that term though hopefully. I would ask you to think for a bit about whether the “hard line” approach is truly the best way in all circumstances to gain souls. It has its place where it can be effective and necessary, but few souls are won this way ultimately. Apologetics is just like diplomacy. Of course your country is completely in the right, but you have to be tactical in how you approach the person you are conversing with. The message has to be given in a way that will most effectively reach the person your talking to, not the way that comes most easily to you. There are 4 different temperaments created by God, that people have for a reason.

 

[Lilsheep88]

I guess what I am trying to say is this. I believe that sometimes, it is OK to do a lesser evil for the sake of the greater good rather than good and morality as a whole overcome by evil. Its like saying that I am willing to do an extra 50 or so more years in purgatory for the salvation of 10 more souls… Something like that.

Hey, if some tactics are heavy handed, but it saves souls… Whats temporary pain and hurt compared to an eternity of bullshroom. And thinking you saved somebody from experiencing that… I think thats a good enough trade. Thats just IMo especially when we want to be literal when Jesus says “I am the way the truth and the life” and other bible quotes on ways regarding entry to heaven.

But you all do raise great points