Impossibility of free will

[Bobber90]

If determinism on a macro level is true, everything has been set since the big bang, there is only one future, and all our choices are fixed… ?

For free will, surely we would have to be mini gods - creating causes where there was no prior cause of our decisions, which is physically unusual to say the least… ?

 

[mymamamary]

This is where Theology helps out the Philosophy part, many questions philosphers ask, cna’t be answered through the eyes of mere philosophy, Catholicisim however has the answers in Her theology, now i will try to best of my extent to answer this question, as it sounds similar to the other question of “I cant have free will, as the LORD knew the decisions i would make, thus, fixing my destiny”-Untrue, Precisley, the beauty of a free will is you can choose the Lord, or your own will, We dont have to create the causes to act on our free will - For e.g. You see someone dying on the side of the road, you in your total and absolute free will, can choose to walk right by him, or stop and help, you didnt create this cause! (i tried my best to answer this question with an analogy i thought would fit)- I dont have a major in philosophy, although it facsintaes me, as posseing the Fullness of truth, i can use Holy Mother Church to debunk alot of atheistic theories in philosophy, its fun! (no disrecpect intended). Free will, is just that, the most precoius gift you have, and the one gift the LORD cannot take from you! HE respects it utterly, and sometimes we are tested, for good or evil, for heaven or hell, hence The last two lines in The Our Father. P.s. im a 16 year old, with no background in philosophy, although i look forward to enganing in it in the Seminary as i am discerning for the Preisthood!!

 

[ASimon]

If determinism on a macro level is true, everything has been set since the big bang, there is only one future, and all our choices are fixed… ?

I would say this is true, with the proviso that there needn’t be a ‘Fixer’ who knows what the fix is.

 

[Bobber90]

This is where Theology helps out the Philosophy part, many questions philosphers ask, cna’t be answered through the eyes of mere philosophy, Catholicisim however has the answers in Her theology, now i will try to best of my extent to answer this question, as it sounds similar to the other question of “I cant have free will, as the LORD knew the decisions i would make, thus, fixing my destiny”-Untrue, Precisley, the beauty of a free will is you can choose the Lord, or your own will, We dont have to create the causes to act on our free will - For e.g. You see someone dying on the side of the road, you in your total and absolute free will, can choose to walk right by him, or stop and help, you didnt create this cause! (i tried my best to answer this question with an analogy i thought would fit)- I dont have a major in philosophy, although it facsintaes me, as posseing the Fullness of truth, i can use Holy Mother Church to debunk alot of atheistic theories in philosophy, its fun! (no disrecpect intended). Free will, is just that, the most precoius gift you have, and the one gift the LORD cannot take from you! HE respects it utterly, and sometimes we are tested, for good or evil, for heaven or hell, hence The last two lines in The Our Father. P.s. im a 16 year old, with no background in philosophy, although i look forward to enganing in it in the Seminary as i am discerning for the Preisthood!!

Great! No doubt you will think about this as you learn more theology. I agree that predicting the future or knowing it does not necessarily prevent free will, but my question is about the consequences of effect following cause. If reality is nothing but effect logically following cause, and if our actions are all caused, then even the act of choosing or thinking is already determined by the prior state of the universe. So the future would be fixed and in the example you gave, the decision to help another person would be determined seconds before it became conscious. Minutes even… or years!

Let’s say I saw someone in need and remembered this conversation. I know that I ‘could’ use my free will, so I decide “Ah ha! I will walk by this person and then turn round to help them! No-one would have predicted that!” But the reality is that this decision, whilst it is mischievously trying to evade being pre-programmed by the prior state of the universe, is actually still as determined as a more ‘normal’ response. It was caused by this conversation, the recollection, the rebelliousness… etc etc.

 

[Bobber90]

I would say this is true, with the proviso that there needn’t be a ‘Fixer’ who knows what the fix is.

I think it is probably better that there isn’t a fixer if we accept there is no free will! I sure wouldn’t create a fixed world if I could make free one.

 

[Alberti_Devoveo]

If determinism on a** macro l**evel is true, everything has been set since the big bang, there is only one future, and all our choices are fixed… ?

For free will, surely we would have to be mini gods - creating causes where there was no prior cause of our decisions, which is physically unusual to say the least… ?

You are overlooking the bold word: on a macro level, determinism is true. On a micro level, it is not actually true.

 

[Bobber90]

You are overlooking the bold word: on a macro level, determinism is true. On a micro level, it is not actually true.

I did put the word in deliberately, so as to avoid unnecessarily dwelling on quantum phenomena. Even if there is a significant macro indeterminacy, that is surely not to say that randomness provides for deliberately chosen, non-random, free will decisions?

 

[Alberti_Devoveo]

I did put the word in deliberately, so as to avoid unnecessarily dwelling on quantum phenomena.

So, basically, you added the word there in order to prevent discussion on the one topic that completely disproves your hypothesis. Sounds reasonable.

Even if there is a significant macro indeterminacy, that is surely not to say that randomness provides for deliberately chosen, non-random, free will decisions?

(a) Why not? What evidence do you have that suggests otherwise?
(b) Why are free will choices are non-random?

 

[Jacob18]

If determinism on a macro level is true, everything has been set since the big bang, there is only one future, and all our choices are fixed… ?

For free will, surely we would have to be mini gods - creating causes where there was no prior cause of our decisions, which is physically unusual to say the least… ?

You are saying that because of the big bang it has been decided that you are an agnostic, that because of the big bang Benedict XVI is pope, because of the big bang I am posting in this thread with these exact words right now?

Please explain how so.

 

[Gusto]

Great!

If reality is nothing but effect logically following cause, and if our actions are all caused, then even the act of choosing or thinking is already determined by the prior state of the universe.

It was caused by this conversation, the recollection, the rebelliousness… etc etc.

Based on what you have written, you had no say in being an agnostic.

And it goes without saying, but I will say it anyway, you have no say when you will eventually become a Catholic priest and give your whole life to Christ and His church.

It has happened many times before.

 

[Aeden]

It’s pretty simple really, just because God knows we are going to do something does not make it any less our choice to do so. Like if you were to watch a man put a cigarette in his mouth, you would know that he was about to smoke, but that would not make it any less his choice to smoke the cigarette.

 

[Bobber90]

So, basically, you added the word there in order to prevent discussion on the one topic that completely disproves your hypothesis. Sounds reasonable.

I put the word in to indicate that I am versed in the basics of the free will question, not to prevent discussion.

(a) Why not? What evidence do you have that suggests otherwise?
(b) Why are free will choices are non-random?

a) Indeterminacy, or randomness, would make our free will decisions like the results of a shaken magic-8 ball. How would we be able to claim authorship of our actions if they are the result of random processes?

b) If free will decisions were random, then perhaps I am about to leap into the garden and eat a slug, or start singing nursery rhymes backwards. But everything about free will/decision making/morality as it is normally discussed assumes that we can make deliberate, rational and non-random choices. I can hardly say “Yes, I have free will, but then again, I have no idea what I’m about to do because my free will operates randomly”

 

[Bobber90]

You are saying that because of the big bang it has been decided that you are an agnostic, that because of the big bang Benedict XVI is pope, because of the big bang I am posting in this thread with these exact words right now?

Please explain how so.

Sadly, that is the implication!

Say we live in a universe (materialistic or not) in which everything happens either as a result of a preceding cause, or as a result of indeterminate causes. That would include our thoughts and decisions, as well as our evolved physiology, and ultimately would mean that everything about us in the present was determined from the first moment of the universe - from the top of the string of cause and effect.

If that is so, the only way to have free will is surely to be able to create new causal chains of action which themselves are uncaused and not indeterminate…

 

[Bobber90]

Based on what you have written, you had no say in being an agnostic.

And it goes without saying, but I will say it anyway, you have no say when you will eventually become a Catholic priest and give your whole life to Christ and His church.

It has happened many times before.

Based on what I said, yes perhaps I will become a Catholic. But what sort of Catholic believes that God made us without free will? That is quite heterodox?

 

[Bobber90]

It’s pretty simple really, just because God knows we are going to do something does not make it any less our choice to do so. Like if you were to watch a man put a cigarette in his mouth, you would know that he was about to smoke, but that would not make it any less his choice to smoke the cigarette.

At first I was willing (no pun!) to accept this but then I thought that if the future can be known, then it is fixed. If knowing means holding a true belief with awareness of its truth, then we can only know the future if the future is immutable. If a certain event definitely happens in the future, then all the ‘choices’ which led up to it are also fixed, because if the people involved could choose otherwise, then the future could be different. But we just said that the future was known, so it cannot be otherwise.

 

[Alberti_Devoveo]

I put the word in to indicate that I am versed in the basics of the free will question, not to prevent discussion.

Except that your previous comment regarded quantum indeterminism as ‘unnecessary’ to the discussion and not ‘significant’ to determinism. On the contrary, quantum indeterminism is completely necessary to the discussion and is significant to determinism.

a) Indeterminacy, or randomness, would make our free will decisions like the results of a shaken magic-8 ball. How would we be able to claim authorship of our actions if they are the result of random processes?

I would not define indeterminacy as randomness; indeterminacy is the belief that there is not a causal relationship between prior events and current events. Randomness describes something that has no pattern. While the two could be related, they are not the same.
So again, why would you expect that indeterminacy plays little-to-no role in free will choices?

b) If free will decisions were random, then perhaps I am about to leap into the garden and eat a slug, or start singing nursery rhymes backwards. But everything about free will/decision making/morality as it is normally discussed assumes that we can make deliberate, rational and non-random choices. I can hardly say “Yes, I have free will, but then again, I have no idea what I’m about to do because my free will operates randomly”

Right. So clearly determinism & indeterminism/free will cannot be about randomness, which is the point I was trying to make. Determinism & free will are about the causal relationships between prior events and now, not about randomly doing things.

 

[mymamamary]

This is precisley it, so much for agnostics and atheists ( please dont be offended) rides on chance, yet nothing can lie on chance. the world wasnt fixed before we got here, and it wont be fixed if we leave here. the beauty of it is that GOD in HIS Omnipotent mercy and LOVE gave us a free will, HE never fixed anything, HE created us, GAVE US EVERYTHING! is with us, BUT HE would NEVER EVER infringe your free will, regardless of the man dying, whether it was chance or destiny that put him there, our actions arent fixed, a complex concept to be sure, but our wills arent fixed. we still have the choice to walk by him or help him, GOD saw this from the beginning of time, yes, HE also saw your thoughts and feelings and ultimatley your decision and action, but it is YOU who can change it, as you have the power of free will to fix it. Our LORD isnt some dictator, who fixed things and cruelly watches us be damned through no choice of our own, HE LOVED US SOO MUCH, HE gave us the choice to love or not to love, And while there is still time here on this planet, i suggest, we seal our destinies by choosing heaven, and acting as such for e.g helping our neighbour, loving the LORD OUR GOD WITH ALL OUR HEARTS, WITH ALL YOUR MIND AND WITH ALL OUR STRENGHTS, Confession, HOLY EUCHARIST, etc. THESE AND OUR ACTIONS BY THESE, WILL BE THE ONES TO SEAL OUR DESTINY, WHETHER FOR HEAVEN OR HELL, NOT SOME MERE WHIM AND CHANCE, OR SOME KIND OF CRUEL DICTATORSHIP.

PAX ET BONUM
AMDG
TOTUUS TOUUS MARIA!
MAY THE SACRED HEART OF JESUS, BE FOREVER PRAISED, LOVED, ADORDED AND GLORIFIED NOW AND FOREVER!

 

[Bobber90]

Except that your previous comment regarded quantum indeterminism as ‘unnecessary’ to the discussion and not ‘significant’ to determinism. On the contrary, quantum indeterminism is completely necessary to the discussion and is significant to determinism.

How is describing quantum indeterminism completely necessary to demonstrating that free will is true? It sounds like you have a theory that links these, without actually presenting the theory. On the other hand, I think that indeterminism does not provide for free will, regardless of the degree to which macro scale life is affected by quantum phenomena. Hence my consideration that quantum phenomena are an avenue which it is not relevant to pursue.

I would not define indeterminacy as randomness; indeterminacy is the belief that there is not a causal relationship between prior events and current events. Randomness describes something that has no pattern. While the two could be related, they are not the same.
So again, why would you expect that indeterminacy plays little-to-no role in free will choices?

Right. So clearly determinism & indeterminism/free will cannot be about randomness, which is the point I was trying to make. Determinism & free will are about the causal relationships between prior events and now, not about randomly doing things.

I don’t see how indeterminate things ought not to be described as random, but do agree that causation is key to this discussion. Specifically, I think that indeterminacy can play no role in free will for two reasons. Firstly, indeterminate events may still have determinate effects, and if there are indeterminate events in our brains, we have no control over the effects that they produce. So that is an example of no freedom being granted. Secondly, indeterminate events are not caused by the preceding state of the universe (or indeed there are some events only probabilistically caused), and that means that we cannot claim authorship of events which we think are indeterministic. If an event is truly indeterministic, we cannot have achieved it by intention, but may have wished for it and become lucky that it happened.

 

[Bobber90]

This is precisley it, so much for agnostics and atheists ( please dont be offended) rides on chance, yet nothing can lie on chance. the world wasnt fixed before we got here, and it wont be fixed if we leave here.

This is exactly the question: do we live in a universe in which effect follows cause, and in which everything is actually fixed? You have asserted that this is not so, but I don’t yet believe you!

You do give an emotive description of what free will is but, really, how can we believe this sort of free will is true and consistent with physics and philosophy?

the beauty of it is that GOD in HIS Omnipotent mercy and LOVE gave us a free will, HE never fixed anything, HE created us, GAVE US EVERYTHING! is with us, BUT HE would NEVER EVER infringe your free will, regardless of the man dying, whether it was chance or destiny that put him there, our actions arent fixed, a complex concept to be sure, but our wills arent fixed. we still have the choice to walk by him or help him, GOD saw this from the beginning of time, yes, HE also saw your thoughts and feelings and ultimatley your decision and action, but it is YOU who can change it, as you have the power of free will to fix it. Our LORD isnt some dictator, who fixed things and cruelly watches us be damned through no choice of our own, HE LOVED US SOO MUCH, HE gave us the choice to love or not to love, And while there is still time here on this planet, i suggest, we seal our destinies by choosing heaven, and acting as such for e.g helping our neighbour, loving the LORD OUR GOD WITH ALL OUR HEARTS, WITH ALL YOUR MIND AND WITH ALL OUR STRENGHTS, Confession, HOLY EUCHARIST, etc. THESE AND OUR ACTIONS BY THESE, WILL BE THE ONES TO SEAL OUR DESTINY, WHETHER FOR HEAVEN OR HELL, NOT SOME MERE WHIM AND CHANCE, OR SOME KIND OF CRUEL DICTATORSHIP.

PAX ET BONUM
AMDG
TOTUUS TOUUS MARIA!
MAY THE SACRED HEART OF JESUS, BE FOREVER PRAISED, LOVED, ADORDED AND GLORIFIED NOW AND FOREVER!

No doubt you’ll be thinking something like: “This is crazy, I experience free will all the time so I know it is real!” But there is an alternative, which is that we perceive decision-making to be deliberate and conscious when this is an illusion generated non-consciously after the fact - once choices have been formed.

Here is a parallel:

The philosopher Wittgenstein was supposed to have said this.

"Why do people say that it was natural to think that the sun went round the earth rather than that the earth turned on its axis?”

[consensus:] "Because it looked as if the sun went round the earth.”

"Well what would it have looked like if it had looked as if the earth turned on its axis?”

 

[mymamamary]

My problem with Science is that they continue to try to tell me that they can fit Our LORD into a box, thats impossible, you cannot put the LORD into a box with physics. Free will, like our souls, cannot be gauged by physics or any other material science,