Impossibility of God?

[Donald45]

Historically people did believe that the Gods had a beginnning.

True, however, the OP, posting on a Catholic forum, appeared to be asking about the classical Christian view of God. My reply, therefore, has been according to the historically Christian theistic concept. As for other more modern faith traditions, Mormonism, for example, does hold to the idea that a finite being evolved into an infinite being, but this is not a classically Christian doctrine.

the modern idea of ‘outside of time’ is logically impossible and absurd. think about it. as long as there is an observer there would always be a passage of time.

Not necessarily, since the Observer (in this case, God, an infinite being) may well be observing (i.e., experiencing awareness of) the passage of time (temporal realities) without himself being subject to that finite passage of time. In other words, he observes time from outside the temporal order, as one would expect of a Being which created time in the first place.

Pax,

Don
+T+

 

[ncgolf]

the modern idea of ‘outside of time’ is logically impossible and absurd. think about it. as long as there is an observer there would always be a passage of time.

Only impossible from where we sit, on this side of Eden. It is not logically impossible, given the theist starting point nor is it absurd given what God has revealed.

 

[Truthstalker]

as long as there is an observer there would always be a passage of time.

Where did you get that idea?

 

[AgnosTheist]

Not necessarily, since the Observer (in this case, God, an infinite being) may well be observing (i.e., experiencing awareness of) the passage of time (temporal realities) without himself being subject to that finite passage of time. In other words, he observes time from outside the temporal order, as one would expect of a Being which created time in the first place.

Absolutely Necessary. For what is time but the “measurable period during which an action, process, or condition exists or continues” (webster). An observer undergoes mental processes. Was there a measurable period? Of course. God is supposedly a thinking being. Was there a measurable period between one thought and another. Of course there should be. Gods function under time.

Perhaps what you mean to say is that God has his own timeline distinct from physical universal time? As the bible says, for God a day is like a thousand years.

 

[ncgolf]

Absolutely Necessary. For what is time but the “measurable period during which an action, process, or condition exists or continues” (webster). An observer undergoes mental processes. Was there a measurable period? Of course. God is supposedly a thinking being. Was there a measurable period between one thought and another. Of course there should be. Gods function under time.

Perhaps what you mean to say is that God has his own timeline distinct from physical universal time? As the bible says, for God a day is like a thousand years.

It is not and here is why. Do you presuppose time brought about its existence? Time is a creation … all except for God is created, if time is created it is under the control of its Creator, the creator does not necessarily need to be influenced by his creation. The Nicene Creed states “We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things seen and unseen.” All is creation except for the Creator. Time is merely a created phenomenon … much like a butterfly.

 

[AgnosTheist]

It is not and here is why. Do you presuppose time brought about its existence? Time is a creation

No, time is merely a measurement…a period between two occurrences. it doesnt create nor is it created.

God spends time like everything else.

 

[ncgolf]

No, time is merely a measurement…a period between two occurrences. it doesnt create nor is it created.

God spends time like everything else.

Between what … 2 finite occurences … God is infinite and the difference between the finite and infinite is infinite. You can’t measure it so you better find a different way to measure this since time doesnt give you an answer.

The only way for God to be affected by time is to insert himself into his creation … that’s who Jesus Christ is, God taking the nature of His created creature and subjecting himself to it’s its ultimate consequence, that’s the mystery of the Incarnation and to me a bigger mystery than God’s interaction with time.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Between what … 2 finite occurences … God is infinite and the difference between the finite and infinite is infinite. You can’t measure it so you better find a different way to measure this since time doesnt give you an answer.

What about between one thought and another? was there a period? ofcourse there is!

What about between sentences (like when he was speaking to himself in the book of genesis)? Was there a period between the words? Ofcourse!

The point is, time flows for god too.

Hey im not trying to measure anything. im just rationalizing that god spends time like everyone else.

And remember, the bible itself specifically attributes time to god: “for god a day is like a thousand years”. stop fighting your bible. dont reinvent your god.

 

[ncgolf]

What about between one thought and another? was there a period? ofcourse there is!

What about between sentences (like when he was speaking to himself in the book of genesis)? Was there a period between the words? Ofcourse!

The point is, time flows for god too.

Hey im not trying to measure anything. im just rationalizing that god spends time like everyone else.

And remember, the bible itself specifically attributes time to god: “for god a day is like a thousand years”. stop fighting your bible. dont reinvent your god.

C’mon you’re not that simple. Why didn’t it say a million, or a billion, or a bajillion. What that verse is saying is we cannot comprehend what time is for God. If God was in time like you say that verse would be unecessary, actually it would be a silly statement if what you say is true. The verse does say “is like” not “is”. If you think about all the explanations of God, even Jesus, uses the words “is like”. Finite language is unable to describe what God is so we say “is like” so we can comprehend even the least about God.

For an infinite being to interact with a finite being the greater must come down to the lower and use terms we can understand. All the written word, Bible included, must conform to the constraints of this world.

When you say from one thought to the next you still see God in a linear fashion as if God is on a straight line from here to there. Instead of looking a God as on a line you need to look at the line from the edge so it seems more like on a plane. That would make it look as if no begining and no end, it would seem all at once.

 

[AgnosTheist]

C’mon you’re not that simple. Why didn’t it say a million, or a billion, or a bajillion.

the point is, the bible implied that God has his time too.

What that verse is saying is we cannot comprehend what time is for God.

no what the verse is saying is that god’s day is much much broader than ours.

remember, in genesis the creation was a step by step process. it did not happen in an instant. the periods in between those processes, thats time. god’s time.

 

[freesoulhope]

remember, in genesis the creation was a step by step process. it did not happen in an instant. the periods in between those processes, thats time. god’s time.

God created time. God did not create the world in six days. The story of genesis is a parable. A finite being wrote that story to express the fact the God created the world; and how sin came in to the world. The author used ideas that people were familier with at the time, Such as, seven days and the seventh day being holy, to make the concept more interesting and easier to understand.

I do not believe that there was a literal talking snake.
I do not believe that there was a literal Garden of eden.
But the physical realitys that these concepts represent, are very real, such as Adam and Eve; the snake is the temptation of the devil, the Garden of Eden is a place of innocents that Adam and Eve once held.

God creating things withing time, as writen in the bible, is easier to comprehend and understand; but this is only a finite representation of a timeless being that is almost incomprehensible.

 

[AgnosTheist]

God created time. God did not create the world in six days.

time is neither created nor destroyed. it is merely a measurement, an observation, a period between two functions.

 

[freesoulhope]

time is neither created nor destroyed. it is merely a measurement, an observation, a period between two functions.

Time is not created? Where is the evidence to justify your claim? Time began to exist along with space and energy.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Time is not created? Where is the evidence to justify your claim? Time began to exist along with space and energy.

time ‘began to exist’ because there was a difference in the periods between events. time is just a measurement. just the process of thinking spends time. Your God knows how to think, right? Thats time well spent for him.

 

[Donald45]

Absolutely Necessary. For what is time but the “measurable period during which an action, process, or condition exists or continues” (webster).

This is only one definition of “time,” and not a strictly theological one. Indeed, this describes a feature of creaturely temporality. However, such terms as “action,” “process,” and “condition” may not even be accurately applied to God at all, at least not in the same sense in which they refer to the created order, since he is not a temporal creature.

An observer undergoes mental processes. Was there a measurable period? Of course. God is supposedly a thinking being. Was there a measurable period between one thought and another. Of course there should be. Gods function under time.

Your mistake lies in the assumption is that God “undergoes mental processes,” that is, that he thinks linearly—one thought, then another, and so on—in the same fashion as a human being. You assume that, for God, there must be “a measurable period between one thought and another.” Yet, here you’re ascribing to God the “mental processes” of his creatures.

Perhaps what you mean to say is that God has his own timeline distinct from physical universal time?

No, I’m not suggesting this, though this is a view that’s been held by Christians over the centuries. Throughout the past 2,000 years of Christian history, God’s “eternity” has been understood either as [1] timelessness, or as [2] endless duration. The former is by far the most prominent view, though the latter has had its share of defenders. From a Catholic perspective, both St Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas held to God’s timelessness, teaching that time came into being with creation, that God was therefore the creator of time, and that as such he cannot be bound by it. Since time is a function of change (as you’ve suggested), God’s consciousness, in this view, embraces past, present, and future in one synoptic and comprehensive vision. In modern times, this classic Christian understanding was challenged by the neo-orthodox scholar Karl Barth.

In any case, it must be pointed out that, by arguing for God’s eternity as endless duration, you’re not thereby arguing against God’s existence (or for atheism), but are positively assuming it.

Blessings,

Don
+T+

 

[Donald45]

time is neither created nor destroyed. it is merely a measurement, an observation, a period between two functions.

…between two functions of the temporal, created order. Of course, God, as a self-existent and non-contingent infinite being, is not himself a part of this temporal, created order, and is therefore not subject to time as it is understood to pertain within his creation.

Pax,

Don
+T+

 

[Donald45]

time ‘began to exist’ because there was a difference in the periods between events.

Time began because God created a contingent, temporal order. Hence, “time” properly applies to that created order of which God is not an ontological part.

…time is just a measurement. just the process of thinking spends time.

Temporal creatures think in a “process,” while God does not. You’re having trouble not ascribing strictly creaturely attributes to God.

Your God knows how to think, right?

Though not in the same sense, or in the same manner, as do his finite, temporal creatures.

Pax,

Don
+T+

 

[ncgolf]

the point is, the bible implied that God has his time too.

Not at all … the creation narratives point out and emphasize that God is the author of all creation and whatever is needed to make it work. All, nothing existed until God created it.

no what the verse is saying is that god’s day is much much broader than ours.

It speaks of a more complex relationhsip between God and His creation not merely God’s day is longer or implies some conversion factor between our second and some unknown measurement in heaven. You will have to read Aquinas to get a better explanation.

remember, in genesis the creation was a step by step process. it did not happen in an instant. the periods in between those processes, thats time. god’s time.

The story was written in a fashion for us to understand … the how it was done cannot be said for sure, though I would love to really know. There is a beautiful symetry in those narratives. The Christian God is unchanging with no beginning and no end, there is no linear component to God. There is with us … I am sure the face in the mirror is not getting any younger … we are on a one way rail created specifically for us. So God has no past and no future and with this presuppostion how can time even enter the equation.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Temporal creatures think in a “process,” while God does not. You’re having trouble not ascribing strictly creaturely attributes to God.

Though not in the same sense, or in the same manner, as do his finite, temporal creatures.

In your bible God thinks like the average human. He has the same loves & hates. He holds the same kinds of grudges. And displays the same extremes of human kindness & human cruelty.

The trouble i’m having is the fairly recent & unbiblical idea called ‘outside of time’. Its illogical and absurd.

 

[Donald45]

In your bible God thinks like the average human.

Through Scripture, God discloses his character and will in language and images that make sense to the average human. The language used in the Bible to describe God and his “actions” is referred to by biblical scholars as “anthropomorphism,” which is to describe God by reference to the attributes of his creatures. Therefore, Scripture speaks of God “seeing,” “hearing,” “speaking,” reaching out his “hand,” “coming down to see,” “smelling,” etc. These are simply anthropomorphisms designed to communicate truths about God to his finite creatures. How else, after all, may the finite begin to comprehend the infinite?

The trouble i’m having is the fairly recent & unbiblical idea called ‘outside of time’. Its illogical and absurd.

It’s hardly “recent,” given the fact that St. Augustine wrote about it copiously in the 300s A.D. Even before Augustine, however, it was discussed by other early Church Fathers. No doubt it seems “illogical and absurd” to you because you insist on trying to apply a wholly finite and creaturely reality (time) to an absolutely infinite and self-existent Being. This, I would agree, is indeed entirely illogical and absurd. My advice is to stop doing it immediately.

Blessings,

Don
+T+