Impressions first TLM, oops EF

[scylla]

So I finally went to a EF Mass a couple weeks ago and I finally have come around to write about it, see if my thoughts are of any use to you.

I grew up in the 80’s under a pretty orthodox old Priest who eventually went away and was replaced by a succession of Priests, scandal and heterodoxy. So I fell away from the faith and came back a few years ago, thanks to Catholic Answers, the multitude of Protestant Churches I went to and a seed planted by my baptism and the orthodoxy of my childhood, though I have until recently been a terrible Catholic, now I am a bit better. I am still a work in progress.

That being said, I once made fun of those who liked latin, I used to say silly things like, “why not just say the Mass in Greek?”

Well I am a bit more mature and respectful of the faith of our fathers. What is it about the Mass the has fostered the faith of countless Saints? What was wrong with it?

First the praise
I could find nothing wrong, it was a beautiful expression of the Catholic faith in so many ways. The respect is forced upon you, the Mass takes a bit of work, it taxes you, and forces your focus on the importance of Christ.

Maybe it is too much for those who don’t believe Christ is present in the Eucharist, the EF Mass forces us to respect and acknowledge the presence of Christ, the presence and centrality of God.

Now the complaints…
There needs to be a reaching out for those who go to the OF Mass. It is quite a transition and uncomfortable for those who have grown up and absorbed so much or so little. I can compare it to me coming back to the Catholic Church after spending time wandering through non-catholic faiths, statues of Mary were a shock to me. In the same way the centrality of Christ and the explicit seriousness is a shock. It can scare you.

There needs to be handy guides to help follow along, I brought my family and had to help them use 4 different missals and spent some of the time trying to keep them understanding where we were. It was easier for me and very tough on them. If you attend a parish with the EF Mass seek to have booklets available in the front for newcomers.

Traditional Catholics who are used to being criticized, looked down upon, and rejected need to come out of their protective shells. It will be difficult but the seige mentality is strong. Learn to invite and open up.

I am not sure how to overcome hostility, as there are still very many people strongly against the faith inside the Catholic Church. I know in my parish they will refer people to the Protestant school rather than the independant traditional Catholic school in town.

Any comments questions,
Scylla

 

[bpbasilphx]

That being said, I once made fun of those who liked latin, I used to say silly things like, "why not just say the Mass in Greek?"

**It happens in Greece and Greek Orthodox parishes all the time!

And at one time, Greek was the liturgical language of the Roman Rite.**

 

[eelpis]

That being said, I once made fun of those who liked latin, I used to say silly things like, "why not just say the Mass in Greek?"

**It happens in Greece and Greek Orthodox parishes all the time!

And at one time, Greek was the liturgical language of the Roman Rite.**

Latin was used on the CROSS of Our Blessed Lord together with Hebrew and Greek.
Latin is a sacred language.

 

[LilyM]

Latin was used on the CROSS of Our Blessed Lord together with Hebrew and Greek.
Latin is a sacred language.

But, you will notice, NOT Aramaic, which is the language Our Lord sanctified by speaking it on a daily basis, and thus surely must also be considered a sacred language if any language is.

 

[eelpis]

But, you will notice, NOT Aramaic, which is the language Our Lord sanctified by speaking it on a daily basis, and thus surely must also be considered a sacred language if any language is.

Aramaic is used in the liturgies of the Church.
Of course it’s a sacred language.

 

[Timothysis]

Latin was used on the CROSS of Our Blessed Lord together with Hebrew and Greek.
Latin is a sacred language.

So the native language of Julius Caesar, Caligula, Nero and Diocletian is sacred???

 

[Chatter163]

So the native language of Julius Caesar, Caligula, Nero and Diocletian is sacred???

Yes, it is, but not because those pyschos spoke it. Read the words of Blessed John XXIII.
catholic-forum.com/saints/pope0261a.htm

 

[LilyM]

Aramaic is used in the liturgies of the Church.
Of course it’s a sacred language.

So is English, French, German, Japanese, Swahili …

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

So I finally went to a EF Mass a couple weeks ago and I finally have come around to write about it, see if my thoughts are of any use to you.

I grew up in the 80’s under a pretty orthodox old Priest who eventually went away and was replaced by a succession of Priests, scandal and heterodoxy. So I fell away from the faith and came back a few years ago, thanks to Catholic Answers, the multitude of Protestant Churches I went to and a seed planted by my baptism and the orthodoxy of my childhood, though I have until recently been a terrible Catholic, now I am a bit better. I am still a work in progress.

That being said, I once made fun of those who liked latin, I used to say silly things like, “why not just say the Mass in Greek?”

Well I am a bit more mature and respectful of the faith of our fathers. What is it about the Mass the has fostered the faith of countless Saints? What was wrong with it?

First the praise
I could find nothing wrong, it was a beautiful expression of the Catholic faith in so many ways. The respect is forced upon you, the Mass takes a bit of work, it taxes you, and forces your focus on the importance of Christ.

Maybe it is too much for those who don’t believe Christ is present in the Eucharist, the EF Mass forces us to respect and acknowledge the presence of Christ, the presence and centrality of God.

Now the complaints…
There needs to be a reaching out for those who go to the OF Mass. It is quite a transition and uncomfortable for those who have grown up and absorbed so much or so little. I can compare it to me coming back to the Catholic Church after spending time wandering through non-catholic faiths, statues of Mary were a shock to me. In the same way the centrality of Christ and the explicit seriousness is a shock. It can scare you.

There needs to be handy guides to help follow along, I brought my family and had to help them use 4 different missals and spent some of the time trying to keep them understanding where we were. It was easier for me and very tough on them. If you attend a parish with the EF Mass seek to have booklets available in the front for newcomers.

Traditional Catholics who are used to being criticized, looked down upon, and rejected need to come out of their protective shells. It will be difficult but the seige mentality is strong. Learn to invite and open up.

I am not sure how to overcome hostility, as there are still very many people strongly against the faith inside the Catholic Church. I know in my parish they will refer people to the Protestant school rather than the independant traditional Catholic school in town.

Any comments questions,
Scylla

I agree with you that TLM churches should have missals or missalettes for people who don’t have one. I know the indult parish I have attended does have them.

That being said, I would tell anyone attending the TLM the first four or five times to not get too hung up on trying to keep up in their missal with what is going on. That will come with time and I can imagine it would get frustrating trying to keep several people on the same page, especially if it’s their first or second TLM.

They can still see what is going on in their missal, but I would just suggest to them to soak up the experience rather than frantically trying to keep up in their missal.

God bless and I think it will all become more natural the more you attend.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

So is English, French, German, Japanese, Swahili …

I suppose that statement would hold if there is no such thing as a sacred (or liturgical) language. After all, if every language on earth is sacred then none of them are.

A language is usually considered sacred because after long use in the liturgy it becomes set and unchanging and is not changed or discarded regardless of whether or not it is the vernacular langauge of any particular people. Thus, from what I understand, the Greek Orthodox Church uses old Greek and they have not changed it to the modern form of Greek because old Greek is their liturgical (or sacred) language.

Of course, as mentioned in an above post, Pope John XXIII has enumerated the reasons Latin ought to be held in esteem in Veterum Sapientia:

catholic-forum.com/saints/pope0261a.htm

 

[LilyM]

I suppose that statement would hold if there is no such thing as a sacred (or liturgical) language. After all, if every language on earth is sacred then none of them are.

A language is usually considered sacred because after long use in the liturgy it becomes set and unchanging and is not changed or discarded regardless of whether or not it is the vernacular langauge of any particular people. Thus, from what I understand, the Greek Orthodox Church uses old Greek and they have not changed it to the modern form of Greek because old Greek is their liturgical (or sacred) language.

Of course, as mentioned in an above post, Pope John XXIII has enumerated the reasons Latin ought to be held in esteem in Veterum Sapientia:

catholic-forum.com/saints/pope0261a.htm

Well, Ancient Egyptian is set and unchanging, and certainly was used in liturgy for millennia. That doesn’t make it a sacred language, it makes it a dead language. No, there is no such thing as a sacred language, there is only language which we use to communicate about and with the sacred - which in liturgical contexts is often a dead language for various reasons.

Although I would agree with John XXIII that Latin has a special and estimable (and useful) place in our faith, as it does in law and medicine and other disciplines, that doesn’t make it or any language sacred.

 

[Timothysis]

Well, Ancient Egyptian is set and unchanging, and certainly was used in liturgy for millennia. That doesn’t make it a sacred language, it makes it a dead language. No, there is no such thing as a sacred language, there is only language which we use to communicate about and with the sacred - which in liturgical contexts is often a dead language for various reasons.

Although I would agree with John XXIII that Latin has a special and estimable (and useful) place in our faith, as it does in law and medicine and other disciplines, that doesn’t make it or any language sacred.

I completely agree. How does a language, in itself, become sacred?

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Well, Ancient Egyptian is set and unchanging, and certainly was used in liturgy for millennia. That doesn’t make it a sacred language, it makes it a dead language. No, there is no such thing as a sacred language, there is only language which we use to communicate about and with the sacred - which in liturgical contexts is often a dead language for various reasons.

Although I would agree with John XXIII that Latin has a special and estimable (and useful) place in our faith, as it does in law and medicine and other disciplines, that doesn’t make it or any language sacred.

When a language, such as Latin, is set apart and used for the liturgy, as well as Church documents, for centuries, it is sacred because it is primarily used in the context of the sacred liturgy. A few definitions:

1.devoted or dedicated to a deity or to some religious purpose; consecrated. 2.entitled to veneration or religious respect by association with divinity or divine things; holy. 3.pertaining to or connected with religion (opposed to secular or profane): *sacred music; sacred books. *

This fits Latin and other liturgical languages to a T. Liturgical or sacred languages are not primarily used for profane or secular purposes.

 

[LilyM]

When a language, such as Latin, is set apart and used for the liturgy, as well as Church documents, for centuries, it is sacred because it is primarily used in the context of the sacred liturgy. A few definitions:

1.devoted or dedicated to a deity or to some religious purpose; consecrated. 2.entitled to veneration or religious respect by association with divinity or divine things; holy. 3.pertaining to or connected with religion (opposed to secular or profane): *sacred music; sacred books. *

This fits Latin and other liturgical languages to a T. Liturgical or sacred languages are not primarily used for profane or secular purposes.

Rubbish. Up until even 50 years ago Latin was used in plenty of non-religous contexts - it was the language of medicine and most other sciences, law, international diplomacy, other professions. For this reason most schoolkids even in my parents day routinely learned Latin.

It wasn’t primarily used for sacred purposes at all.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Rubbish. Up until even 50 years ago Latin was used in plenty of non-religous contexts - it was the language of medicine and most other sciences, law, international diplomacy, other professions. For this reason most schoolkids even in my parents day routinely learned Latin.

It wasn’t primarily used for sacred purposes at all.

Just because it was used for other purposes doesn’t mean it isn’t a sacred language. It hasn’t been a vernacular language for centuries, it is not an everyday “street” language, it used to be the one language of the Roman rite the world over, and hence it is a sacred, “set apart” language as it was the language of worship of the Roman Catholic Church. As well as the language of Church documents.

 

[eelpis]

Rubbish. Up until even 50 years ago Latin was used in plenty of non-religous contexts - it was the language of medicine and most other sciences, law, international diplomacy, other professions. For this reason most schoolkids even in my parents day routinely learned Latin.

It wasn’t primarily used for sacred purposes at all.

Iesus Nasarensis Rex Iudaeorum, was written on the holy cross of Our Lord. That a language could be given a more glorious praise I cannot see how.

It certainly was not written in English.

God intended it there and God does not make mistakes.

 

[LilyM]

Iesus Nasarensis Rex Iudaeorum, was written on the holy cross of Our Lord. That a language could be given a more glorious praise I cannot see how.

It certainly was not written in English.

God intended it there and God does not make mistakes.

For one, how about the Aramaic (and Hebrew) that came from His blessed mouth? He never spoke any Latin or Greek, or none that was recorded, and that absolutely makes those two incredibly second-rate languages, well behind the Aramaic (which was never even used on the sign) and Hebrew.

That’s if you genuinely know anything about such things.

Besides which of course those words were written in English - check in any Douay-Rheims Bible

God intended that English translation of the words to happen too, every bit as much as He intended the writing of the original. He intended it so that I and other English speakers might understand His word in our own tongue which He gave to us, and He certainly didn’t make a mistake when He did so either.

This talk about Latin being sacred is hogwash.

 

[eelpis]

For one, how about the Aramaic (and Hebrew) that came from His blessed mouth? He never spoke any Latin or Greek, or none that was recorded, and that absolutely makes those two incredibly second-rate languages, well behind the Aramaic (which was never even used on the sign) and Hebrew.

That’s if you genuinely know anything about such things.

Besides which of course those words were written in English - check in any Douay-Rheims Bible

God intended that English translation of the words to happen too, every bit as much as He intended the writing of the original. He intended it so that I and other English speakers might understand His word in our own tongue which He gave to us, and He certainly didn’t make a mistake when He did so either.

This talk about Latin being sacred is hogwash.

You are entitled to your view but I recommend that you read Veterum Sapientiae.

The English is a translation and not the inspired written word of God.

I’ve seen the titulum of the cross in Sa Croce in Gerusalemme in Rome, impressive.

My point was that every detail in the gospel carries a meaning if we pray and let it sink into our minds.

All the best.

 

[eelpis]

For one, how about the Aramaic (and Hebrew) that came from His blessed mouth? He never spoke any Latin or Greek, or none that was recorded, and that absolutely makes those two incredibly second-rate languages, well behind the Aramaic (which was never even used on the sign) and Hebrew.

That’s if you genuinely know anything about such things.

Besides which of course those words were written in English - check in any Douay-Rheims Bible

God intended that English translation of the words to happen too, every bit as much as He intended the writing of the original. He intended it so that I and other English speakers might understand His word in our own tongue which He gave to us, and He certainly didn’t make a mistake when He did so either.

This talk about Latin being sacred is hogwash.

You are entitled to your view but I recommend that you read Veterum Sapientiae.

The English is a translation and not the inspired written word of God.

I’ve seen the titulum of the cross in Sa Croce in Gerusalemme in Rome, impressive.

My point was that every detail in the gospel carries a meaning if we pray and let it sink into our minds.

All the best.

 

[LilyM]

You are entitled to your view but I recommend that you read Veterum Sapientiae.

The English is a translation and not the inspired written word of God.

I’ve seen the titulum of the cross in Sa Croce in Gerusalemme in Rome, impressive.

My point was that every detail in the gospel carries a meaning if we pray and let it sink into our minds.

All the best.

Of course the choice of language for Christ’s titulum has a meaning. That meaning was … drumroll that most people in Jerusalem spoke Greek, Latin or Hebrew, so it made sense to write it in those languages, but most people did NOT speak the Aramaic which He spoke, so it made sense NOT to write it in Aramaic too.

Hun, even with the Gospels sometimes a banana really is just a banana.