In 1835 Mormons taught that Father was a spirit

[TheosisM]

Please read this. It also addresses Paul’s claims. You see, all this has been around for quite some time. Paul gets his information from antimormons. He just doesn’t think all this up himself.

en.fairmormon.org/Lecture_5_teaches_the_Father_is_%22a_personage_of_spirit%22

The question of spirit and physical bodies are addressed in the above link.

None of that explains what you said previously, which directly contradicts Mormon beliefs. You said:

-“I don’t think that we have our physical bodies in Heaven. But we do have our spirit bodies”. Then what about the bodily (physical) resurrection of the dead? The bodies that we have will be “re”-surrected, and will be perfected.

-“Christ came to earth and gained His physical body. But now…? I believe that He has His spirit body”. So what happened to His physical body? Again, see above on the "re"surrection. Christ was bodily resurrected, and bodily ascended to Heaven, and retains the same body that He had on earth, that is now glorified. This is held as true by both Mormons and Catholics, and Mormons believe that both the Father and the Son have “glorious incorruptible bod[ies] of flesh and bone”.

 

[why_me]

None of that explains what you said previously, which directly contradicts Mormon beliefs. You said:

-“I don’t think that we have our physical bodies in Heaven. But we do have our spirit bodies”. Then what about the bodily (physical) resurrection of the dead? The bodies that we have will be “re”-surrected, and will be perfected.

-“Christ came to earth and gained His physical body. But now…? I believe that He has His spirit body”. So what happened to His physical body? Again, see above on the "re"surrection. Christ was bodily resurrected, and bodily ascended to Heaven, and retains the same body that He had on earth, that is now glorified. This is held as true by both Mormons and Catholics, and Mormons believe that both the Father and the Son have “glorious incorruptible bod[ies] of flesh and bone”.

I might not have explained it well. But I took what was in fist cor. 15:44 to mean what I wrote.

And Bruce R. said.

They are the two personages who came to Joseph Smith in the spring of 1820 in a grove of trees in western New York. They are exalted men. Each is a personage of spirit; each is a personage of tabernacle. Both of them have bodies, tangible bodies of flesh and bones. They are resurrected beings. Words, with their finite connotations, cannot fully describe them. A personage of tabernacle, as here used, is one whose body and spirit are inseparably connected and for whom there can be no death. A personage of spirit, as here used and as distinguished from the spirit children of the Father, is a resurrected personage. Resurrected bodies, as contrasted with mortal bodies, are in fact spiritual bodies. With reference to the change of our bodies from mortality to immortality, Paul says: “It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.” (1 Corinthians 15:44.) “For notwithstanding they [the saints] die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.” (D&C 88:27.)

I think that above was stated by Bruce R.

 

[TheosisM]

I might not have explained it well. But I took what was in fist cor. 15:44 to mean what I wrote.

And Bruce R. said.

They are the two personages who came to Joseph Smith in the spring of 1820 in a grove of trees in western New York. They are exalted men. Each is a personage of spirit; each is a personage of tabernacle. Both of them have bodies, tangible bodies of flesh and bones. They are resurrected beings. Words, with their finite connotations, cannot fully describe them. A personage of tabernacle, as here used, is one whose body and spirit are inseparably connected and for whom there can be no death. A personage of spirit, as here used and as distinguished from the spirit children of the Father, is a resurrected personage. Resurrected bodies, as contrasted with mortal bodies, are in fact spiritual bodies. With reference to the change of our bodies from mortality to immortality, Paul says: “It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.” (1 Corinthians 15:44.) “For notwithstanding they [the saints] die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.” (D&C 88:27.)

I think that above was stated by Bruce R.

Yes, that makes a lot more sense, and is in line with what both Mormons and Catholics believe (as far as our resurrected bodies). As we see, there is a “change of our bodies”, meaning that we still have our bodies, however they are changed (glorified). Thanks.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I think that in this issue you are being unreasonable. How is the bishop or missionaries to know what are the controversial issues? First I showed you where the adam god theory was denounced in 1976 by the then leader of the lds church spencer w. kimball during the general conference. Should the missionaries or your bishop friend told you that? It would be like me investigating the catholic faith and being confirmed into the faith and then I read what some whacky pope said in 1145 and leave the catholic church because the RCIA class did not tell me that whacky quotation.

These issues you mentioned are not only online but they are in mormon books. For example, the encylopedia of mormonism has the whacky issues in it and this has been published with the help of the lds church by MacMillian. I can read about adam god, adam as Michael and I can even read about the antimormon literature that claims that sidney rigdon wrote the book of mormon using the spaulding manucript. It is all in the encylopedia of mormonism and yes, that is online too. The journal of discourses are also published by the lds church and they have been sold in the lds bookstores. Maybe the missionaries should have given you those books to read. Most mormons have no problem with them at all. The truth claim of the mormons rests with the book of mormon. Nothing more and nothing less. If that book is true, it matters not what brigham young said. It is all down to the book of mormon. And the same anti theories about it were around at the Joseph Smith time and the mormon faith was not phased at all.

And so, what is secret?

why me:

Of course the Bishop and the missionaries knew what would be controversial to a Protestant Christian. It is unrealistic to assume otherwise.

Even if you remove the “revelation” to Mormon Prophet, Brigham Young, that “Adam is god,” there are still particular Mormon beliefs that a Bishop and missionaries would know are controversial. The following three would clearly startle a Protestant Christian:

1. God is an exalted man
2. Man becomes God through exaltation
3. God has a wife and lives on (near) a star called Kolob

I remember after my baptism (same night); I was introduced to a woman who was to continue my lessons. She was a convert and had not been brought up in Mormonism. I told her I had just learned, the day before, that Mormons believe that God has a wife and lives on a star called Kolob (my sister called and told me.) I told this kind Mormon woman that it was difficult to take in, and I was a bit shaken by this belief. She told me that she understood that some of the Mormon beliefs are difficult to accept. Then she actually said to me, “I’ve wavered over the years.”

The lessons the Mormon missionaries present are carefully and skillfully given to avoid the controversial issues. Many converts, including myself, are shocked to learn the truth. The problem is that one has usually already been baptized, before the serious issues are revealed. Then it is difficult to leave.

So, to say a Mormon Bishop and Mormon missionaries would not know the controversial issues is extremely unlikely.

Anna

 

[PaulDupre]

why me:

Please read this. It also addresses Paul’s claims. You see, all this has been around for quite some time. Paul gets his information from antimormons. He just doesn’t think all this up himself.

Nope, I get my information directly from LDS prime sources. I have nothing to do with anti-Mormons. There are, however, some prime sources that are no longer available from the LDS church because the LDS are frantically trying to distance themselves from things like the Lectures on Faith, the 1835 D&C and the 1830 Book of Commandments, so if we want to provide links to these documents, they will necessarily be to non-LDS sites. But even if the documents are located at non-LDS sites, they are still the prime source documents.

You will notice that I have often warned people on these fora not to get there information from anti-Mormon sources, because these are usually somewhat inaccurate. I counsel people to seek out the prime sources for their info on Mormonism. It is more work, but it is worth it.

 

[PaulDupre]

None of that explains what you said previously, which directly contradicts Mormon beliefs. You said:

-“I don’t think that we have our physical bodies in Heaven. But we do have our spirit bodies”.

why me knows as much about Mormonism as he does about Catholicism: NADA

 

[why_me]

Nope, I get my information directly from LDS prime sources. I have nothing to do with anti-Mormons. There are, however, some prime sources that are no longer available from the LDS church because the LDS are frantically trying to distance themselves from things like the Lectures on Faith, the 1835 D&C and the 1830 Book of Commandments, so if we want to provide links to these documents, they will necessarily be to non-LDS sites. But even if the documents are located at non-LDS sites, they are still the prime source documents.

I pointed out that the Encyclopedia of Mormonism is in most lds churches. In those volumes much is discussed about issues that antimormons claim are hidden, including the Rigdon Spaulding theory, adam god, adam as michael etc. No one is Frantically trying to distance themselves from it. The lectures on faith are not hidden. They can be found on Mormon sourced websites. By the way, Catholic Answers is not the catholic church. It is a web community that addresses issues. If I go to the vatican website, I will not find much on controversial issues in the past. But the mormons themselves are addressing the controversial issues on their sponsored websites and blogs as are catholics.

contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/EoM&CISOPTR=4391&CISOSHOW=3873&REC=1

Here is the section on the Lectures on Faith linked above.

Your take on everything is actually the view that FAIR attempts to address: the critics. And so far you are hitting a hundred percent with your critic interpretation. It is true that many lds are not familiar with the lectures but church leaders, lds scholars do quote from them on occasion.

 

[why_me]

why me knows as much about Mormonism as he does about Catholicism: NADA

I answered his concerns. But here is the difference between you and I. I really don’t care what the mormons said in the past. I have no concern about it. Likewise, I have no concern about what past popes said and they said much too. I am only concerned with the now and the with the future.

I am using these issues to sow misunderstandings, bitterness, dislike, etc. I am bringing up the past to make points in a basketball game. All can play that game since the past contains skeletons within every religion because religion is made up of living human beings who were not or are not perfect.

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . .I really don’t care what the mormons said in the past. I have no concern about it. Likewise, I have no concern about what past popes said and they said much too. I am only concerned with the now and the with the future.

. . . All can play that game since the past contains skeletons within every religion because religion is made up of living human beings who were not or are not perfect.

why me:

I think it is critical to understand the origins of our religions. I am a Christian in the Protestant Sector; but I am not a fan of Luther or Calvin–I think many of their teachings were very wrong and led many astray. I speak of this often on the Forums.

So, that, in addition to a long list of other reasons (including my experience with the Mormon Church) causes me to question what I have been taught in the Protestant Sector–and it should. I struggle with this every day and continue to pray and study.

So, our origins do matter. One of the main issues with Mormonism is the claim that your Church Presidents are “Prophets.”

When one claims to be a prophet and teaches the church according to “revelations” from God; his words must be absolutely true. Otherwise, he fails the test of a true prophet.

If your founder and 1st Mormon Prophet, Joseph Smith; and the 2nd Mormon Prophet, Brigham Young, proclaimed revelations from God that turned out to be false; what basis do you have for the Mormon religion? False prophecies = false prophets = Mormonism crumbles.

I keep posting this Scripture, because it is so important:

Deuteronomy Chapter 18:

20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’

21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the LORD has not spoken?’

— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.

If your founding “Prophets” cannot pass this test; you are burying your head in the sand, every time you say, “I really don’t care what the Mormons said in the past.”

Somehow, we must find the courage to investigate and test the origins of our “indoctrination.” I am not saying this is easy. If it were, I would not be somewhere between Protestantism and Catholicism. I understand “holding on.”

I pray that God will give us both the courage to find His truth,
Anna

 

[benidict]

You are looking at the Doctrine and Covenants of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints which is not the lds church. The reorganized church has more revelations in their D and C by their leaders.

hi why me. keep trying to tell people something similar to this. that we cannot judge the lds church today, by their founders. much has changed. am i correct?

 

[Janet1983]

You might be interested in watching the DVD’s or on youtube ‘the bible vs. the book of mormon’ and also the book of mormon vs. dna’ yes there stories change. One must keep lying to cover up the first lie!

I own a couple of copies…

 

[Janet1983]

You are looking at the Doctrine and Covenants of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints which is not the lds church. The reorganized church has more revelations in their D and C by their leaders.

What source are you referring to?
D&C 1891 was LDS…
“The Doctrine and Covenants, of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints, containing the revelations given to Joseph Smith, Jun., the prophet, for the building up of the kingdom of God in these last days. Divided into verses, with references, by Orson Pratt, Sen.”

 

[Janet1983]

Both dvds are sponsored by known mormon haters. They spend their lives attempting to destroy the lds church. However, the mormons have an answer to both dvds.

Well the BoM against the Bible does raise a couple of very good questions and they actually interview Mormons… they are proving their points by asking LDS members…
Did you ever watch any of the DVDs?

 

[jake23]

Both dvds are sponsored by known mormon haters. They spend their lives attempting to destroy the lds church. However, the mormons have an answer to both dvds. You can find it here:

fairlds.org/Bible/Bible_vs_the_Book_of_Mormon_Video.html

google.com/cse?cx=006480910542272568972%3Adjiv3kx8zqo&ie=UTF-8&q=the+book+of+mormon+and+dna&sa.x=3&sa.y=11

It would be like me going to known catholic haters to find information about the catholic church. The makers of the antimormon video are born again christians.

To have the success that the lds cult has had, you have to be verry good at manipulating and lying so obviously the cult conjured up some more lies to manipulate the truths in these videos. Calling a church and ex mormons haters is a laugh! They are lovers of Christ who wish to proclaim the truth against the false prophet and his cult which is a great disgrace to Christ. I would suggest for you to get a better education on the matters!

 

[Janet1983]

To have the success that the lds cult has had, you have to be verry good at manipulating and lying so obviously the cult conjured up some more lies to manipulate the truths in these videos. Calling a church and ex mormons haters is a laugh! They are lovers of Christ who wish to proclaim the truth against the false prophet and his cult which is a great disgrace to Christ. I would suggest for you to get a better education on the matters!

You realize that the first link is going to an LDS page ranting over a video made by ex-mormons?
Did you ever watch it?

 

[thecourt]

My reply to this is Joseph Smith had the First Vision and this matter is closed.

To suggest that the church changed its doctrine is wrong, when it was noted about Lectures on Faith. The church has never officially taught that the Father was a spirit.

When God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith, in answer to his prayer to find out which of the churches in existence at the time was the true church of Jesus Christ — Joseph responded about what happened during the First Vision.

 

[twopekinguys]

My reply to this is Joseph Smith had the First Vision and this matter is closed.

To suggest that the church changed its doctrine is wrong, when it was noted about Lectures on Faith. The church has never officially taught that the Father was a spirit.

When God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith, in answer to his prayer to find out which of the churches in existence at the time was the true church of Jesus Christ — Joseph responded about what happened during the First Vision.

And aren’t there multiple versions of the first vision? I believe 7 in all.

 

[vickimonica]

Hi everyone. You need to google "Hot Mormon Muffins, and “Men on a Mission”. They are calanders that a group of mormons made. Obviously, they were NOT wearing their Jesus jammies!!!