In 500 years time, what will be said of the 50 years since VaticanII?

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It will be seen that the ultra conservatives served to work to destroy the necessary reforms of the Church, and that they also worked very hard to destroy any possibility of reconcilliation between Christian Churches.

That they drove many Catholics out of the Church, and eventually, after being condemned by the Holy See, they moved to their own “splinter” Church.

That once they were removed from any position of power in the Church, the work of the Church moved forward once again.
 
First, Catholics will realize in much fewer than 500 years that none of the changes associated with Vatican II were even suggested by Vatican II.

catholicnewsagency.com/column.php?n=1145

Catholics can learn more about Vatican II right now.

harvestingthefruit.com/

Catholics can realize right now that dissidents inside and outside the Church created problems. The biggest attack was against Humanae Vitae issued by Pope Paul VI in 1968. The Sexual Revolution could not go on if too many Catholics rejected artificial birth control. In the 1970s, graphic pornography became widely available through Adult Bookstores. Then we had topless bars and strip clubs followed by abortion on demand. Then, in the 1980s, No-Fault Divorce became widely available. I remember the newspaper ads: “No kids? $75 and you’re out. Call 800-DIVORCE.”

Nope. The counter-culture attacked the faithful and created a mess. In the 1990s, Churches lost membership and mall parking lots filled up. Profanity on the radio, shock jocks, and rap. Then the internet.

In seminaries in the 1970s, prospective priests were taught Humanae Vitae but they were also led to believe that the Church would change its stance on artificial birth control someday. That’s changed now.

Peace,
Ed
Sorry, Ed, but you’re ignoring a significant item: VII formalized the requirement for the Eastern Catholic Churches to delatinize, and also formally states they are sister churches in union, not merely ritual churches within the Roman. And that change IS implemented. (Delatinization is ongoing in most of the ECCs). That’s the one big doctrinal change of VII… the inherent validity of the Eastern Churches liturgical praxis (both in and out of union). And one that doesn’t affect latins much, and few (if any) latins care about.
 
One doesn’t have to be a so-called “traditionalist” to appreciate Mass according to the Missal of 1962. There are indeed many who simply prefer its liturgical and theological expression.
Indeed, witness all the young people who attend the EF Mass, especially at an all-EF parish, where the EF in all probability saved that church from total destruction. (ICRSP in Rockford and Chicago).
 
It will be seen that the ultra conservatives served to work to destroy the necessary reforms of the Church, and that they also worked very hard to destroy any possibility of reconcilliation between Christian Churches.

That they drove many Catholics out of the Church, and eventually, after being condemned by the Holy See, they moved to their own “splinter” Church.

That once they were removed from any position of power in the Church, the work of the Church moved forward once again.
I would prefer it if we stuck to facts and comments on what has happened rather than things you think will happen or things you blame on certain groups.

This is not about labels within Catholicism.
 
Catholics can realize right now that dissidents inside and outside the Church created problems. The biggest attack was against Humanae Vitae issued by Pope Paul VI in 1968.
The information Catholics had received from their priests was that one could use his/her conscience in such matters. (Progressio Populorum #37) Also the concensus of Paul VI’s moral theologians before H.V. was that ABC was okay. In this light, many simply dismissed H.V. as an anomaly when it was released. The 60’s and 70’s were loaded with such misinformation, including suppression of Latin and the old rite.
 
In 2007 the pope allowed the TLM in all parishes of the world. This is not excuse any more.

Also you shall explain why existing TLM mass draw an average 200 or so people in a weeked, while an average suburban Church draws 2000. The Mass is there, why are not there the people?

Do not deceive yourself, try to see the hard fact.
Are you serious? Laszlo, the SP states that any priest can PRIVATLY say the EF if he wishes without the permission of the Bishop! This does not mean that that the Bishop has no say in where the EF can be said publically. Almost all EF in my area that are not done by FSSP parish only or some other traditional society have their EF in very early hours like 6 or 7 am or really late on Sunday like 5 or 7 pm and yet they are still well attended. Many people have told me they would attend the EF more if it were available around 9 through 11 am slots. Now I am only speaking for my area in general. 40 years of Novus Ordo compared to almost 4 years of SP can’t be used for comparison yet! As I said if you really want to compare numbers then the Bishops should allow one EF in all if not most parishes and allow a year or two then and only then can you compare numbers. Not all areas in the world are lucky to have an EF parish less than 20 minutes away, there nearest EF parish could be 1 hours to 5 hours drive! Even if the OF thrives much more than the EF, which I am sure it would, it would not make a difference to those faithful to the Church wethere OF or EF.
 
I would prefer it if we stuck to facts and comments on what has happened rather than things you think will happen or things you blame on certain groups.

This is not about labels within Catholicism.
Ignore his post some of us have come to the conclusion that he just trolls the traditional forums, but he never responds to any of our quesitons or comments directed towards him.
 
To Aramis,

Yes, I did not know that, but if you look closely, you’ll see that people in North America and Western Europe were badly affected by the “freedom” small groups were yelling for. All of it was resisted: the pornography, cohabitation and the strip clubs. Now, things are turning around. The free and easy lifestyles came with a price.

Peace,
Ed
 
The children of the liberal chatolics realise that they do not belive anyway and so leaf the church or do not baptice there children and so only the traditionalist will stay in the church and the protestand churches in europe are all gone (i mean there are almost non of them).

And about these so called necesery reforms, the protestand in germany done that and still decreasing faster than the chatolic church because no one needs a church to feal good you stay in a church if you belive and liberal reforms make you only not to belive.
 
In 2007 the pope allowed the TLM in all parishes of the world. This is not excuse any more.

Also you shall explain why existing TLM mass draw an average 200 or so people in a weeked, while an average suburban Church draws 2000. The Mass is there, why are not there the people?

Do not deceive yourself, try to see the hard fact.
The fact is, it might be allowed in all parishes but not available in all parishes. I know many around here, myself included would go if one was offered. Remember we have a shortage of priests and the ones we have are very, very busy. To do the TLM they must be trained and that’s happening but it takes time.

I think, alot of priests are starting to adapt into the NO mass alot of the beautiful Catholic traditions that have been lost and it is wonderful to see.
 
Why wait 500 years? How about 5 minutes? Looking back on the changes of Vatican II there was only weakening and dilution. The Church will live forever, even with the Vatical II changes. Fortunately, it is now changing back to the purity of the gospel. Now, it they will only drop many of the newer diluted and desparately hollow songs and drop the distraction of the “Peace be to you”, it would be wonderful.
 
There was a 50 to 100 year period of upheaval after every great council. We are living it now.

The documents of the Second Vatican Council are like treasure chests full of priceless diamonds and rubies which have hardly even been opened yet.

The Church will praise the wisdom of those who participated in the Council and thank God for the guidance given them by the Holy Spirit.

-Tim-
 
One doesn’t have to be a so-called “traditionalist” to appreciate Mass according to the Missal of 1962. There are indeed many who simply prefer its liturgical and theological expression.
Then why are the TLM’s half empty?

In my traditional parish (one priest, and someone from the seminary to help him every weekend) there are 7 masses in a weekend and about 2000 people attend mass every weekend. The parish covers 38.000 total polulation, about 10,000 Catholics, 4500 registered families. The newrby parishes are somewhat the same size, the attendance is somewhat worse, but still around 20% of the Catholics. The churches are full.

Compare this with about TLM 400 attendance in a nearby City of 150,000. I personally know that chapel, the priest is in full communion with the Church, and impeccable character. The downtown church has two Masses in a weekend and with 200 - 200 people in each is not full.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=7801766&highlight=150%2C000#post7801766

I am old and conservative, I like the reverent masses (w/o wanting to force my view on others). In the Church what I attend there are 4 Masses in a weekend, the most attended the English Missa Cantata (Latin chant), which with vernacular and the strict observance of the new Missal, rightly can called the Mass of All Ages.

Why can’t you understand that the form is only empty form, what we need is the reverence and Jesus Christ?

Why only 400 people prefer the liturgical and theological expression in a city of 150,000? Knowing that Jesus Christ wants to draw everyone, how can one say, that this is better than more than 10 times as many in the new form?

What gives you assurance, that Jesus Christ wants to see around Him only people who thinks like you?
 
We’re coming up on 50 years since Vatican II. What will be said of the fruits of this council in 500 years time, do you think?

Just in case anybody thinks this is an inflammatory thread I am looking for positives and negatives.
i don’t know, i wont be there 😃
 
Then why are the TLM’s half empty?

In my traditional parish (one priest, and someone from the seminary to help him every weekend) there are 7 masses in a weekend and about 2000 people attend mass every weekend. The parish covers 38.000 total polulation, about 10,000 Catholics, 4500 registered families. The newrby parishes are somewhat the same size, the attendance is somewhat worse, but still around 20% of the Catholics. The churches are full.

Compare this with about TLM 400 attendance in a nearby City of 150,000. I personally know that chapel, the priest is in full communion with the Church, and impeccable character. The downtown church has two Masses in a weekend and with 200 - 200 people in each is not full.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=7801766&highlight=150%2C000#post7801766

I am old and conservative, I like the reverent masses (w/o wanting to force my view on others). In the Church what I attend there are 4 Masses in a weekend, the most attended the English Missa Cantata (Latin chant), which with vernacular and the strict observance of the new Missal, rightly can called the Mass of All Ages.

Why can’t you understand that the form is only empty form, what we need is the reverence and Jesus Christ?

Why only 400 people prefer the liturgical and theological expression in a city of 150,000? Knowing that Jesus Christ wants to draw everyone, how can one say, that this is better than more than 10 times as many in the new form?

What gives you assurance, that Jesus Christ wants to see around Him only people who thinks like you?
Yeah you only are seeing this parish and what two others? And most of us are wondering why cant you understand that the EF is here to stay? Anyways since you bring abour “numbers” which have no backing only by a CAF member who no one knows I am no longer going to respond to any comment. I’ve said what I’ve said I leave everything else in the hand of the Lord! One young person at a time.
 
Compare this with about TLM 400 attendance in a nearby City of 150,000. I personally know that chapel, the priest is in full communion with the Church, and impeccable character. The downtown church has two Masses in a weekend and with 200 - 200 people in each is not full.
I know the churches you speak of. (I assume you’re speaking of Volo and SJC.) They weren’t doing that well before the EF was introduced there in the 80’s and 90’s. In fact, it saved both parishes. I worked with people who knew both pastors there. Now you’re demeaning the EF? That’s very disingenous of you.
 
I have been watching the threads re the Vatican II question (a common theme) and others for a while now, and would very much like to comment. I would like to agree with Laszlo, if I may, whom I feel has been most inhospitably ‘shouted down’ several times while trying to be charitable and make a simple point. Please bear with me; my point has absolutely everything to do with the question posed in the OP.

I am a young man, 27, and, thanks be to God, am blessed to have been a convert to the Holy Catholic Church. I am a solid conservative and believe without exception in the Church’s Magisterium. I left, not too long ago, a very progressive parish because of remarks by the pastor such as ‘the devil is the ego’ and for cussing (S-bombs) during his homily. From this progressivism, which also included not so subtle endorsements of the clearly heretical ‘womenpriest’ agenda, I have been blessed once more to find a solid, traditional parish that is run by sterling, ordered clerics, the holiest men it has been my pleasure to meet. Of the six Holy Masses offered during the weekend one is a TLM, one is Spanish NO, one is Vietnamese NO, and the remainder are both NO in English: one with strong Latin elements such as the Gloria, Kyrie, and Agnus Dei, one strictly in English. My preference is for the English NO with Latin elements. I have also attended the TLM on occasion. All services, all of them, are excellent, and all are unabashedly orthodox.

I believe that, regardless of the denotations of VII, though which I consistently study am not yet an expert, my parish connotes the very best of the VII spirit—orthodoxy in both the Latin and vernacular forms. And I agree with Laszlo’s observation, anecdotal though it may be the TLM has a weekly attendance of some 150 people (the only young one ones in attendance children of the adults) while the other services pack the church to capacity, some 500 people (with many newlyweds and young singles). Why is it that some people cannot accept orthodoxy is not limited to strictly Latin? I can appreciate the beauty of TLM, truly, and am so thankful that the Holy Father has made the efforts he has to preserve it, indeed, to promulgate it: but the hard facts are, by every standard of my own observation, that the NO is not going to be replaced by TLM just as TLM will not be forced out by the NO. Why do so many people hereabouts seem to be insisting that the NO—which is a canonical and absolutely valid Mass—be thrown out in favor of totally restoring TLM…which by and large simply, though beautiful, does not speak to the great majority of the Faithful? Is our faith not about worshipping Our Lord in an orthodox manner? About evangelizing the world for Christ and His Church? I know ‘the boards’ causa sui attract people of strong persuasions one way or another, but the extreme—perhaps even bellicose—comments from the ardent TLM supports (who I myself sympathize with!)—do nothing to foster charity and brotherhood in the Church.

I must say I am also aghast at how conversations like this regularly marginalize, or even outright attack, the Religious Brothers and Fathers on the board that comment, and how the various Holy Fathers have been criticized by the same element. I almost, now and then, seem to catch whiffs of schism, and open endorsement of such groups as the SSPX.

Personally I am very attached to Taizé prayer, and feel that Frere Roger was slowly but surely doing his best, vis-à-vis the ‘spirit’ of VII, to lead people to the Church, and I know several people who have come to our Holy Church through the spirituality fostered by that kind old man—who was brutally assassinated, and who won the admiration of several Popes, Popes whose opinions on the nature of VII I hold more authoritative than some very bitter comments I have seen on these boards. It was more than disheartening for me to see some of the comments about Frere Roger made on these boards, by people (no matter how well intentioned) of the same mind as are now criticizing Laszlo.

Pardon me for putting forward such a long winded opening post. But I am about as conservative a Catholic (thank the Lord!) as one might find, and I believe that the Second Vatican Council will be viewed in the next several hundred years with great esteem—by—God willing—perhaps two or even three billion Catholics, orthodox, and that it will be seen as a great victory for Christ, on whose behalf the Church operates…

Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus, Chritus imperat!
 
I’m reading this thread and finding it rather interesting. There are some points that have attracted my attention more than others . . . as is the case with every human endeavor. Is it not?

First, I would like to comment on that little exchange between Brother David and another poster. I can’t remember who. I believe that I understand Brother’s query. It may be clear to us who are religious and we may assume that it’s clear to others outside of religious life, when in fact it’s not. If there is one thing that is often discouraged in the great religious orders such as the Carmelites, it’s speculation. The great founders and reformers: Benedict, Bernard, Francis, Augustine, Dominic, Bruno, Albert, Romuold, Teresa and Bonaventure considered it to be a waste of time. You must remember that our orders are all mendicant or monastic.

This is important for those who call themselves Traditional Catholics to understand, because these families are an essential part of the Catholic Tradition and are not going away. Christ has promised them that they will be around until he comes again. Also, their traditions are like the inner tube that gives shape to the outside tire. These traditions give shape to many other aspects of tradition in the Church.

These traditions are grounded on two points: 1) here and now and 2) eternity. Everything in between is unimportant, because it’s not essential to the sanctity of the religious, the ministry of his order, or the salvation of souls. It’s not germane, because it has not happened. In order to maintain our focus on the presence of the Incarnate Christ who leads us to the Father through the power of the Holy Spirit, that which is not happening is not important. At times, even much of what is happening is not important, because it does not add to our holiness or take anything away from it. By our, I mean us, God’s people. The focus of these great traditions is always going to be on that which is happening today that draws us closer to the Father. Every action is a response to the Father, not to our interests or curiosity. Therefore, for us, this question sounds very strange. It’s not one that we would conceive. There is nothing wrong with the question. It’s just foreign to friars, monks and clerks regular.

Another point that attracted my attention is the constant reference to the lack of Extraordinary Form masses in parishes. We have to remember several things. It may be true that bishops are slow on moving on it. However, it’s also true that you must have a diocesan priest who wants to celebrate it. I work with several hundred priests and know only a handful that want to celebrate it. Priests who belong to religious communities cannot celebrate it without permission from their Major Superiors or from their community, depending on how their government is structured. Many Major Superiors have granted some of their men permission to celebrate it, but there are conditions that must be met. We have to be patient and wait for that pool to get bigger.

As far as the Council is concerned, I would offer a word of advice. Don’t give the future generations the script. Let them judge us from their perspective. I believe that a great deal of good came from Vatican II. For me personally, the greatest good is the reform of religious life. The Council’s call to return to our roots, to the vision and mission of our founders has been a blessing. I belong to a religious family that had lost its identity between 1800 and 1960. We were founded a fraternity of men and women. Originally, we had brother-priests, non-clerical brothers, nuns, married men and women, secular priests and deacons. All were part of the same family. All were equal. All had the same mission. All were called to follow the Gospel in a family.

As a result of the quick growth in dioceses, bishops asked the Ministers to ordain more brothers and lend them for the new parishes that were opening to serve the poor. Fast-forward to 1950. More than 60% of the men entering the order were being directed toward the priesthood. Priests had total control over the order. Other members had no rights. Their function was to run the house and do menial jobs to liberate priests to run parishes. It became so bad that the ordained friars never cleared a table, did laundry, washed a car, cut grass, sweep a floor, prepare a meal or hang a picture on a wall. They didn’t even make their beds. Community prayer went out the window. The non-clerical brothers kept the Divine Office going, because the ordained brothers were too busy to stop their parish work to pray with their brothers. You attended community recreation as long as there was nothing else to do in the parish, no confessions, no masses, and no meetings. Some men were living alone, managing their own money, owning their own cars and deciding when to come and go without being accountable. However, when they got old or sick, then they returned to the fraternity to be cared for.

We have spent the last 40-years retracing our steps, examining where we went wrong, pulling back from all of these parish commitments, rethinking this urgency to ordain and pulling men back to the basics. Today we have ordained friars who wash dishes, make beds, prepare meals, serve meals in a soup kitchen, pick up homeless people on the street, and drop parish work to serve the fraternity caring for the elderly and sick brethren. We again have non-clerical friars in command of houses, ministries and serving as equals to their ordained brothers and their lay brothers and sisters. We even have community functions that take priority over parish functions or the shelter, the soup kitchen, the hospital or the school. I see Vatican II as a great blessing. There are many other little things that are not always too obvious.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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