In a Catholic Marriage, what is the woman's role?

[thewanderer]

Your suggestion is nonsense.

It is patently obvious in today’s culture that the entire concept of authority needs a very close study.

You immediately assume that leadership necessarily includes servitude, “one sided submission” and other ills in a marriage where a man embodies headship. This belief is really your problem, or, shall I say, the entire pagan culture’s problem, and thus, the problem of all.

Christ is bridegroom of a bride He died for. It doesn’t get more clear than that, but…

He demanded much of His bride, and it gets no more foggy than that in our world.

The fact that many individuals who claim to be Christians take Christ, His commands and example lightly is simply modeled in the trivializing of men that occurs in our culture. Hard not to, in light of the fact that most men in pop culture reflect almost no characteristics of Christ.

And…yes; I am saying that authority has no meaning whatsoever unless it is tested by disagreement, and its Word stands.

You misunderstand me. I am absolutely a proponent of the importance of a wife’s submission in marriage to her husband. And I agree with you that there are those in today’s society who have twisted the understanding of men and women’s roles in marriage to the point that it has become unrecognizeable and incompatible with Catholicism. I also am very careful to not confuse leadership with servitude. You are reading far more into what I said than is actually there.

What I did was object to the implication in your post that the ideal Catholic marriage is one in which women are never allowed to disagree with a decision their husband makes and that this is the ideal and standard to which all marriages in all places and times are to be held. Now, perhaps you did not intend to imply this, and, if that is the case, I would be glad to hear it and to take back my suggestion that you read CC more carefully. However, if this was in fact what you intended to imply I must inform you that you are gravely mistaken about the Church’s understanding of a wifes submission to her husband.

 

[Valdemar]

You misunderstand me. I am absolutely a proponent of the importance of a wife’s submission in marriage to her husband. And I agree with you that there are those in today’s society who have twisted the understanding of men and women’s roles in marriage to the point that it has become unrecognizeable and incompatible with Catholicism. I also am very careful to not confuse leadership with servitude. You are reading far more into what I said than is actually there.

What I did was object to the implication in your post that the ideal Catholic marriage is one in which women are never allowed to disagree with a decision their husband makes and that this is the ideal and standard to which all marriages in all places and times are to be held. Now, perhaps you did not intend to imply this, and, if that is the case, I would be glad to hear it and to take back my suggestion that you read CC more carefully. However, if this was in fact what you intended to imply I must inform you that you are gravely mistaken about the Church’s understanding of a wifes submission to her husband.

I never once suggested that a wife agree with idiocy {or sin}, but Casti which you point to and I agree with makes it clear that “ruling” {an evil word in today’s marriage lexicon} means nothing unless some would rather not submit to it.

 

[thewanderer]

I never once suggested that a wife agree with idiocy {or sin}, but Casti which you point to and I agree with makes it clear that “ruling” {an evil word in today’s marriage lexicon} means nothing unless some would rather not submit to it.

My point about the passage whereby CC explicitly says that both the manner and the degree of the wifes submission is dependent not only on the people involved but also on the place and time they live in makes it very clear that the Church does not claim that women must always and everywhere submit to their husband’s will in all things except sin. The fact that you continue to speak about this as though that were true is what makes me wonder whether or not you have truly understood CC.

 

[illinidiva]

The wife and the husband submit to each other in the marriage. It is an equal partnership. Somehow people hear are suggesting that I am a lesser human being because of my sexual equipment. Yes, I can have babies. I also have a MBA in Finance from a top tier school. And I am somehow lesser than my boyfriend and if he becomes a my husband I have to submit to his whims as head of the family? That he is somehow “better” than me and is “head” of the household because of his gender only, not his skills. The man is flighty concerning finances, so I don’t trust him on financial matters. However, he is more a nurturer and I trust him more than myself with kids. It is a give and take. I think both partners bring their talents to the marriage and one is not lesser than the other. Hopefully, the Pope’s theology of women will affirm their equality in all roles of society.

 

[thewanderer]

Here is the passage I have been referring to.

From Casti Conubii:

1. Again, this subjection of wife to husband in its degree and manner may vary according to the different conditions of persons, place and time.

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_31121930_casti-connubii_en.html

 

[thewanderer]

The wife and the husband submit to each other in the marriage. It is an equal partnership. Somehow people hear are suggesting that I am a lesser human being because of my sexual equipment. Yes, I can have babies. I also have a MBA in Finance from a top tier school. And I am somehow lesser than my boyfriend and if he becomes a my husband I have to submit to his whims as head of the family? That he is somehow “better” than me and is “head” of the household because of his gender only, not his skills. The man is flighty concerning finances, so I don’t trust him on financial matters. However, he is more a nurturer and I trust him more than myself with kids. It is a give and take. I think both partners bring their talents to the marriage and one is not lesser than the other. Hopefully, the Pope’s theology of women will affirm their equality in all roles of society.

I am also a woman, and I think people here are trying to make sure it is clear that men and women are not to be viewed as having unequal importance or worth in marriage. While I understand that the language of the “head” of the family is, today, often associated with a degrading relationship for the woman where she is truly seen as lesser, that is not what the Church means when it speaks of the husband being the head. There is no reason that the husband must always control financial things or that the husband must always work and the wife must always stay at home etc. The Church does not say that a wife is to submit to her husband’s whims, nor does She say that the wife must do everything her husband decides unless it is sinful. In fact, if you carefully read what She has to say about the head/heart relationship you begin to see that the Church’s idea of this relationship it becomes clear that this head/heart relationship necessarily involves mutual submission. Please don’t think that anyone who uses the language of the husband being the head is demeaning women by doing so. Trust me, I would never fit into a marriage where I was expected to always assume my husband was right, and that I must always do whatever he asks of me without complaint. But I can fit into a marriage where I look to find opportunities to submit to him out of the love of Christ and for the good of the family. And that will not mean that I always agree with everything he does, or that I will always allow him to have final say in all things. But I will still see him as the head, not because I am lesser, or any such nonsense, but because I will submit to him out of love. And he, in turn, will submit to me, seeking my good and putting my good before his own. The idea of a man being the head and the woman the heart does not have to be demeaning to women, not when understood correctly.

 

[otjm]

I understand that the man has to be the head of the family, but how much power does the wife have over marital affairs and her children?
Does the wife have only enough power that the husband gives her?

What does the Church say about this?

I’m not married or anything. I’m just wondering.

Let me give it to you real slowly and simply:

If Momma ain’t happy, ain’t nobody happy.

And you may want to look up what Pope Francis has said about the role of women in the Church and about Mary in relation to the bishops of the world.

 

[TK421]

Just a part of Casti, but a good summation just the same;

Domestic society being confirmed, therefore, by this bond of love, there should flourish in it that “order of love,” as St. Augustine calls it. This order includes both the primacy of the husband with regard to the wife and children, the ready subjection of the wife and her willing obedience, which the Apostle commends in these words: “Let women be subject to their husbands as to the Lord, because the husband is the head of the wife, and Christ is the head of the Church.”[29]

1. This subjection, however, does not deny or take away the liberty which fully belongs to the woman both in view of her dignity as a human person, and in view of her most noble office as wife and mother and companion; nor does it bid her obey her husband’s every request if not in harmony with right reason or with the dignity due to wife; nor, in fine, does it imply that the wife should be put on a level with those persons who in law are called minors, to whom it is not customary to allow free exercise of their rights on account of their lack of mature judgment, or of their ignorance of human affairs. But it forbids that exaggerated liberty which cares not for the good of the family; it forbids that in this body which is the family, the heart be separated from the head to the great detriment of the whole body and the proximate danger of ruin. For if the man is the head, the woman is the heart, and as he occupies the chief place in ruling, so she may and ought to claim for herself the chief place in love.

This.

And it’s not going to change just because some among the 10% of people living in deteriorating Western countries with appalling divorce rates want it to. Marriage is flourishing elsewhere in the world, and people are happier as a result.

Although if you want marital roles to be ubiquitous and irrelevant, by all means, nobody can stop you. Find a like-minded man or woman. See you in the prayer intentions forum in 10 years or so.

 

[Lapey]

The wife and the husband submit to each other in the marriage. It is an equal partnership. Somehow people hear are suggesting that I am a lesser human being because of my sexual equipment. Yes, I can have babies. I also have a MBA in Finance from a top tier school. And I am somehow lesser than my boyfriend and if he becomes a my husband I have to submit to his whims as head of the family? That he is somehow “better” than me and is “head” of the household because of his gender only, not his skills. The man is flighty concerning finances, so I don’t trust him on financial matters. However, he is more a nurturer and I trust him more than myself with kids. It is a give and take. I think both partners bring their talents to the marriage and one is not lesser than the other. Hopefully, the Pope’s theology of women will affirm their equality in all roles of society.

I can assure you the Pope is Catholic and will promote Catholic theology of women, men, marriage, and the roles of both in a Catholic marriage. Truth doesn’t change with times. Your “skills” as you put it have absolutely nothing to do with gender roles in a Catholic marriage as put forth by Mother Church.

The man is the spiritual leader and head of his household, just as Christ is head of His Church. Please go back and read Ep. chapter 5. But this time read it while blocking out what the modern society has taught you about married life.

Most of the problems we see in society right now can be traced back to this relationship. Men have abandoned their posts. Why have they done this, because society has neutered them. Why is abortion still legal, because any man who speaks against it gets nail by “feminists”. Why did Eve first touch the tree of knowledge? Because Adam was absent to his duty to follow the teachings fully.

Ep. 5:25-30
“Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word, that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. So [also] husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one hates his own flesh but rather nourishes and cherishes it, even as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body.”

Let me ask you, if you find a real Catholic man, and he treats you like this scripture dictates fully, why would you not submit to him as the head of the family? The family is a reflection of Christ and His Church, can you see that truth? Truth does not adjust with the times; if it would it would not be truth. It would be pop culture.

 

[Cat]

I think it would be useful in this thread to know the sex of the poster and whether or not they are married or have ever been married.

I’ll start out by stating that I’m a 56-year old woman who has been married to the same man for 34 years. We dated chastely for 6 years before we got married, so we have been a couple for 40 years. (I’ll save you the time doing the math–we started dating when I was 16 and he was 15.)

I think that what looks good on paper sometimes has to be tweaked for real-life.

 

[Lapey]

I think it would be useful in this thread to know the sex of the poster and whether or not they are married or have ever been married.

I’ll start out by stating that I’m a 56-year old woman who has been married to the same man for 34 years. We dated chastely for 6 years before we got married, so we have been a couple for 40 years. (I’ll save you the time doing the math–we started dating when I was 16 and he was 15.)

I think that what looks good on paper sometimes has to be tweaked for real-life.

Excellent point. I am a 47 year old man who is married to the same woman (46) for 26 years and together 4 years before that for a total of 30 years. We have not always been faithful to our Church’s teachings and have learned many hard lessons from our decisions. I can say that had I been the man I am today in the beginning of our relationship our marriage would have been much more fruitful.

I was an “Adam” to the fullest extent of the name. I caused her to fall which placed both of our souls to be in jeopardy. It is my responsibility to keep her without spot or blemish, without any such wrinkle, and I failed for the first 15 years of our relationship. Contraception, permanent sterilization affected our marriage and still haunts us to this day.

Our lives changed completely when I felt called to the diaconate. Since formation started in ’05 and ordination in ’10 our lives and marriage have never been better.

This is why we are involved so much in youth ministry, to share our ignorant times with others so they can make good decisions unlike us.

My wife is a professional woman; she is a former bank manager and now a high school teacher. She is a great woman and God so blessed me with placing her in my life. She would be the first here on this thread to explain exactly what it means to WANT to be submissive to her husband; her current husband, not the old me.

Society teaches us to reject true marriage and marital roles, even to the point of ridicule and ostracizing. Authentic Catholic marriage is beautiful while the husband acts as a head as Jesus did for His Church and his bride is submissive as the Church is to Christ. He is the model for us as married people. Our relationship should reflect Jesus’ relationship to His Church.

Jesus died for His Church, so men, are you ready to die for your bride?