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PJM
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THANK YOU!
I do have my “senior moments”
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I do have my “senior moments”
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Gary_Sheldrake
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vames
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Same here
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PJM
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As the OP I’ll play along on this one.
[1st. as a catholic I pray you don’t actually believe this?]
So, everyone gets to heaven?
God picks and chooses the ones He likes
Man has to do nothing OR???
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Gary_Sheldrake
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I believe what is plainly seen.
Everyone is already there. Few see it. I don’t think anyone “gets” to heaven, because no one has to go anywhere to attain it. Jesus was clear on this:
"“Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”
In this one statement, Jesus makes it unambiguously clear that heaven is an interior plane of existence. And all of the world’s religious traditions point to the same, and insist that it can be directly experienced. In Hinduism it’s called Moskha, in Buddhism it’s called Nirvana, in Islam Fana, in Christianity Heaven.
Of course not.
Man has to do something, and it’s a very difficult thing to do. The realization that one has to rely on one’s own awareness of a state of being that lies deep within the manifold ground of existence is a hard matter to come to terms with, which is why so few are able to apprehend what they seek. For many are invited, but few are chosen. Those who are chosen are the ones who seek earnestly, and those who seek earnestly will find what they seek. What they seek lies within. No one “gets” to heaven. Heaven is something that has to be found, and all who find it will attain it. It won’t be found without. It is only found within.
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PJM
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Are you really a catholic? If so your faith formation eas at best very incomplete:
Where does the bible say everyone is in heaven? Or that we are ALREADY there?
**John 14:1-3 **“Let not your heart be troubled. You believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’ s house there are many mansions. If not, I would have told you: because I go to prepare a place for you. And if I shall go, and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and will take you to myself; that where I am, you also may be”.
Matthew 10:28 “And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell”
"“Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” [Lk.17:21]
In this one statement, Jesus makes it unambiguously clear that heaven is an interior plane of existence. And all of the world’s religious traditions point to the same, and insist that it can be directly experienced. In Hinduism it’s called Moskha, in Buddhism it’s called Nirvana, in Islam Fana, in Christianity Heaven.
**Lk. 17:26-30 [SAME Book & Chapter] ** And as it came to pass in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat and drink, they married wives, and were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark: and the flood came and destroyed them all. Likewise as it came to pass, in the days of Lot: they did eat and drink, they bought and sold, they planted and built. And in the day that Lot went out of Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man shall be revealed"
FRIEND: there is only One Infallible rule for right understanding of the Bible:
NEVER-EVER; CAN, MAY OR DEOES ONE VERSE, PASSAGE OR TEACHING MAKE VOID; INVALIDATE OR OVERRIDE ANOTHER. IMPOSSIBLE! The reader must place the message into the context and consider who was speaking; to whim; the time and the place.
Haydocks Catholic Commentary of your verse 21:
Ver. 21. Is within you. It is with you; your Messias is already come. — He standeth in the midst of you, as John the Baptist told you"
This is simply silly.
Matthew 3:17 “And behold a voice from heaven, saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased”
Matthew 5:19 “He therefore that shall break one of these least commandments, and shall so teach men, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But he that shall do and teach, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven”
Matthew 6:10 “Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven”
Jn. 3;5 “Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” [Heaven!]
Mt.19:16-17 “And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. **But if thou wilt enter into life,[HEAVEN!] keep the commandments”. **
Jn.20:21-23 "He [Jesus] said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained"
The position you articulate is a heresy. Be careful friend of what you preach and teach. You would do well to actually learn what we believe and why.
Send me a PM if you have questions.
May God guide and enlighten you:thumbsup:
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Gary_Sheldrake
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Thank you very much for the replies PJM. My answers are below. I hope they help you with this some.
Meaning you cannot enter the state of realization of the state of being called heaven. If you persist in thinking this way, you’re going to miss the bus.
Thanks,
Gary
Absolutely.
I see.
I quoted Christ in saying that the Kingdom of God is inside of us. If that is where it is, then there is no place one has to go, but within to realize it.
The likes of which are the hearts of those who know that Heaven is within.
Meaning you cannot enter the state of realization of the state of being called heaven. If you persist in thinking this way, you’re going to miss the bus.
Again, not inconsistent with heaven being within us.
Again, not inconsistent with heaven being within us.
It would be up to you to explain how. You have not done that.
Likewise, I would ask you to do the same. There are people reading this who might believe you.
I have learned what is plainly seen.
We can do that here if that is agreeable with you.
Likewise!
Thanks,
Gary
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Kirovsakya
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This is the best answer so far.
Christ accepted flesh - with all its implications - to demonstrate to us how to live in this fallen world. He calls us to pick up our own cross and follow Him. As Christians, our overriding mission is to conform our earthly lives to the example He set for us all. The early Saints - particularly (but not limited to) those who endured persecution and martyrdom - got it right.
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concretecamper
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Gary, I would be grateful if you could provide a reference in the CCC that explains that heaven is within us. God Bless.
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PJM
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Gary,
You hold a position that is heritical. Further it is unbiblical as I demonistrated in my previous post.
If you wish to send me a PM, feel free to do so. But truth is truth.
may God guide you,
pat/PJM
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Gary_Sheldrake
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Hello Concretecamper: Insofar as I am aware, the Catechism of the Catholic Church does not fix a location for the Kingdom of Heaven.
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Gary_Sheldrake
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Gary,
Thanks,
Gary
Hello Pat: The Pharisees had the exact same comment to Jesus about His words. I am humbled to be called the same.
You did indeed post a good deal of scripture, but as I pointed out, none of the passages you posted refute anything I had said, nor did they suggest any location for the Kingdom of Heaven. Moreover, you have not produced a piece of scripture that says the Kingdom of Heaven is not inside of us. But I have produced one that says it does. That is what I see.
Likewise
Thanks,
Gary
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concretecamper
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Gary Sheldrake:
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the CCC says much about heaven…so…you believe what YOU interpret scripture to say. I was just checking.
Posted from Catholic.com App for Android
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Gary_Sheldrake
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Yes, Concretecamper, the CCC does say much about heaven. I correctly said it doesn’t fix a location. I would intuit from this that the CCC then generously, and graciously allows Jesus to speak for Himself on the matter, which He in turn found the first occasion to do in Luke. However, I suspect that Jesus didn’t seek consult with the CCC on the matter beforehand, so it may all be superfluous.
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rinnie
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I don’t believe that heaven in inside of us. The scripture states he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
Scripture does tells us that heaven is above us.
The Apostles testified to this. They said they saw Jesus as he rose up into the sky into heaven.
Christ also stated himself he will come again in glory to judge the living and dead. It is said he will return the way he left, he will come down from heaven in the sky.
Now if you say Christ is within us, I can agree with that. But I see no place in scripture that states heaven is in us.
All I know about heaven is what I was told, no eye has seen, no ear has heard what God has Ready for those who love him.
We are told, yes , that in my Fathers house there are many mansions, and when the time is right I will come back for you and show you the place that I have PREPARED for you.
But how can heaven be within us, if Jesus is comming back to take us to the place he prepared for us?
The only heaven that is here on this earth, within our reach is the Church.
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1patterson
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godisgood77
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I’m afraid that there aren’t absolute terms that detail line by line how to assure your place in Heaven. It takes God’s grace to live in that uncertainty… it also takes God’s grace to get to Heaven… So the answer is grace squared…Dear friends in Christ,
In Absoulate terms what is necessary in order to attain Heaven.
What is the evidence of your belief?
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Gary_Sheldrake
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Yes, ancient cultures did in fact use the word ascend to indicate having achieved a higher state of being. It is used in most religions, and was in use before our religion.
Yes, the word heaven was used in multifold ways up until about 100 years ago, which included the sky. For instance “I looked into the heavens” would be a way of saying that I looked into the sky. While the diverse nature of the meaning of the word and it’s intermingling in it’s use has diminished a good deal in modern language, it was clearly used interchangeably until very recently. In this case, its use seems to cause a good deal of confusion.
I perceive this as leaving the problem of a point of termination for such a journey if we insist on reducing the experience of God and Heaven to gross physical terms, in which case there are but three possibilities that I personally can imagine. The first would be someplace in earth’s atmosphere, the second being somewhere in outer space, and the third being another state of being that encompasses all places at all times. The third option agrees most with my sense of logic, since God is said to be with us at all times, which means that Heaven is both up and down, as well as all around. God is in an omnipresent state of being, which requires no particular set place other than whatever place He happens to be. The same if possible for us.
I have no doubt that He returns to our plane of being, yes.
It’s in Luke.
I like that too. It’s very beautiful. We sing it at Church often.
Yes, as many mansions as there are hearts in which He dwells.
**Which might be right here. **
The best place for a resurrected human body is likely on the planet for which it was designed. Most of the constituent parts of my body would be of little use in the sky or in outer space. A point comes wherein one has to come to terms with the idea that consciousness is primary, and the physical is merely an agent of conscious experience, which persists without regard to time and place. Heaven is an experience. Tying it to a concept of time and place is a limitation of imagination. My sense is that existential anxiety is what has caused many over the ages to try and shackle heaven to something familiar, and what is familiar to us is being in a particular place and in a particular time. But I think there is nothing to fear, because it is probably nearer and more familiar than we are able to perceive.
Easily. Heaven is anywhere and everywhere for those who realize that heaven is within. In such a state of being, the place prepared for us is anywhere one happens to be.
I allow for the idea that Heaven is within reach in all places at all times. Church included. You may disagree, of course.
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