O
otjm
Guest
Sadly, in the greater majority of parishes today, the same could be said.
"In addition, the cardinal explains why the church must not spread fear – “of Hell or whatever”." (German prelates again)
- Status
L
LoveMercyGrace
Guest
But Jesus spoke about hell. He tells us clearly. So I do not know who these Bishops are following but it is not Jesus Christ
I
IanM
Guest
LOL Ah yes the “ Don`t loose control of the narrative” tactic.Well, they sure think they are extremely important.
The Germans are apparently creating an English Language news service to “objectively” cover Catholic News from Germany…
Catholic News Agency
German bishops’ news agency launches English edition
A news agency owned by the Catholic Church in Germany has launched an English language service, which it says will provide objective news and information on the Catholic Church in Germany.
The pic of Cardinal Marx shown suggests
“I would have gotten away with it, too, if it wasn’t for you meddling kids using web based translation services.” (With apology’s to Scooby Do fans)
S
starsky77
Guest
I think when showing a flame’s warmth and light to a child and teaching of its beauty, it would be unwise not to mention that one should not go sticking their hand into the flame as one will be burnt. And how do we teach against the enemies strategy if we should not talk of the enemies ultimate prize for you, the trap of eternal damnation in Hell with foul demons that hate us with all their will.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
Well, first of all this doesn’t really go to my comment about why I in USA should have to hear every 2 seconds about what’s happening in Germany. The German bishops run the German church and they know what’s needed in their diocese there. Germany has its own culture and issues, they’re not just like United States.
Second of all, I agree with all of Father Inthepew’s comments on this thread regarding servile fear of Hell. We should be loving God out of love of God, not fear of Hell; focusing on fear of Hell is the sign of an immature spirituality. This is not some new concept, but one that’s been taught by many saints. It doesn’t mean Hell doesn’t exist or that some people don’t go there, but you don’t grow spiritually by focusing on Hell. I also think that some people on this thread are blowing the Cardinal’s remarks out of proportion, probably because he is German and it’s trendy in certain Catholic circles to go around hand-wringing over German bishops.
Second of all, I agree with all of Father Inthepew’s comments on this thread regarding servile fear of Hell. We should be loving God out of love of God, not fear of Hell; focusing on fear of Hell is the sign of an immature spirituality. This is not some new concept, but one that’s been taught by many saints. It doesn’t mean Hell doesn’t exist or that some people don’t go there, but you don’t grow spiritually by focusing on Hell. I also think that some people on this thread are blowing the Cardinal’s remarks out of proportion, probably because he is German and it’s trendy in certain Catholic circles to go around hand-wringing over German bishops.
Last edited:
M
Mary888
Guest
Maybe he’s just trying to get people in Western Europe interested in Christianity again. Germany has churches turned into shops because people stopped coming to church. So he’s really trying to find a new angle.
I find the discourse of Card Marx obsolete. These days you will hardly find any youth truly afraid of Hell. On the contrary, the Enemy is quite popular and so are various of depictitions of Hell. It’s God Who is unpopular because the Bible brings restrictions while those who claim to be in contact with the demons claim all fear of demons is nonsense brought by Christianity borrowed from Judaism and Zoroastrianism and that demons are actually pretty tolerant and all that. The Church proves once again to be way of base about what the “kids are talking” about these days.
You can’t force love. God simply is not popular because He gave laws that go against the temporary “happiness” of many of us, and the Church can’t claim otherwise just to make Him popular without losing even more credibility than that lost after the decades of atheist manifests.
Actually convincing many people that the Enemy is not our friend would be quite difficult these days.
I find the discourse of Card Marx obsolete. These days you will hardly find any youth truly afraid of Hell. On the contrary, the Enemy is quite popular and so are various of depictitions of Hell. It’s God Who is unpopular because the Bible brings restrictions while those who claim to be in contact with the demons claim all fear of demons is nonsense brought by Christianity borrowed from Judaism and Zoroastrianism and that demons are actually pretty tolerant and all that. The Church proves once again to be way of base about what the “kids are talking” about these days.
You can’t force love. God simply is not popular because He gave laws that go against the temporary “happiness” of many of us, and the Church can’t claim otherwise just to make Him popular without losing even more credibility than that lost after the decades of atheist manifests.
Actually convincing many people that the Enemy is not our friend would be quite difficult these days.
Last edited:
I
IanM
Guest
" Compulsory income tax on Christians drives Germans away from Protestant and Catholic churches"
www.telegraph.co.uk
Many Christians are leaving the churches in Germany and the stance of Cardinal Marx on denying almost all the Sacraments to Catholics who are unable or unwilling to pay the Church Tax has created much bad feeling among the Catholic laity. The article above and linked items found on the page (whilst dated five years ago when the economic situation in Germany was even better than today) gives a clue as to what has lead to many Catholics being unhappy there. I have found that many Catholics outside Germany are completely unaware as to the situation there.
Compulsory income tax on Christians drives Germans away from Protestant and Catholic churches
Up to 400,000 Germans officially filed declarations to leave the Protestant and Catholic Church after a decision to extend the 8 or 9 per cent charge to capital gains income
www.telegraph.co.uk
Many Christians are leaving the churches in Germany and the stance of Cardinal Marx on denying almost all the Sacraments to Catholics who are unable or unwilling to pay the Church Tax has created much bad feeling among the Catholic laity. The article above and linked items found on the page (whilst dated five years ago when the economic situation in Germany was even better than today) gives a clue as to what has lead to many Catholics being unhappy there. I have found that many Catholics outside Germany are completely unaware as to the situation there.
I
IanM
Guest
This article provides a pretty good overall picture of the German Church Tax situation and particular attention to item No. 6 may prove particularly beneficial and enlightening.
blog.mygermanexpert.com
10 Facts about German Church Tax
10 things you should know about the Kirchensteuer Last update: May 2021 [ Enthält Werbelinks ] // You need to register as a free...
M
Mary888
Guest
I can’t read the full article, it’s for registered users only. In Europe the Catholic Church is known to tithe or take less like 5%, in exchange for free services. To buy back churches that are now owned by city halls and can be sold if the city hall feels that way I imagine the RCC has to get the money from somewhere. Raising the collected amount is not the way to get popular however this is Germany, not a poor country, and abandoning the church just save up money is not very faithful imho.
I expect the Western world to move farther on this road of no longer helping the cults from state funds thus forcing the church to either await many generous donors or tithe. I include Eastern Europe as well in this Western secular world extending. St. John Chrysosthom advocated tithing, you know? I am well aware that tithing can be a future necessity and don’t get mad at the churvh for this. It is more like the Church lost support from.the State not that they got greedy. I read enough stories about “the greedy priests” from the Communist propaganda in the East and atheist manifests in the West.
In Europe it is said that the taxes were raised in Germany to make people flee the churches to avoid conflicts with the Muslim immigrants who might get angry at large Christiam congregations. Could be true. I can only give an outsider opinion - the German State has been going up side dowm to greet the Muslim immigrants so this theory is possibly true. Probably in the future the Church will pay taxes.
I find tithing better than awaiting some big donors that will save the situation because the existenve of big donors creates favors for certain parish members who are the “parish royalty” and that is devisive.
If my EO church will need to tithe or take 5% I will.certainly not just leave. German people are being manipulated by the media with the same “fat greedy priests” that made the Komintern win the revolution not so long ago. I come from a former Communist country. I am sick of that propaganda that is usually used against Christians who aren’t really poor because the people using that propaganda want the good Christians to spend their money on their own charities and organizations not “throw it away to the Church (who does nothing anyway since no one ever saw God etc)”.
I expect the Western world to move farther on this road of no longer helping the cults from state funds thus forcing the church to either await many generous donors or tithe. I include Eastern Europe as well in this Western secular world extending. St. John Chrysosthom advocated tithing, you know? I am well aware that tithing can be a future necessity and don’t get mad at the churvh for this. It is more like the Church lost support from.the State not that they got greedy. I read enough stories about “the greedy priests” from the Communist propaganda in the East and atheist manifests in the West.
In Europe it is said that the taxes were raised in Germany to make people flee the churches to avoid conflicts with the Muslim immigrants who might get angry at large Christiam congregations. Could be true. I can only give an outsider opinion - the German State has been going up side dowm to greet the Muslim immigrants so this theory is possibly true. Probably in the future the Church will pay taxes.
I find tithing better than awaiting some big donors that will save the situation because the existenve of big donors creates favors for certain parish members who are the “parish royalty” and that is devisive.
If my EO church will need to tithe or take 5% I will.certainly not just leave. German people are being manipulated by the media with the same “fat greedy priests” that made the Komintern win the revolution not so long ago. I come from a former Communist country. I am sick of that propaganda that is usually used against Christians who aren’t really poor because the people using that propaganda want the good Christians to spend their money on their own charities and organizations not “throw it away to the Church (who does nothing anyway since no one ever saw God etc)”.
Last edited:
I
IanM
Guest
Here is a cut and paste copy of the Telegraph article that is unavailable to you. If the page word limit is not sufficient I will post the missing text on the next page.
Hundreds of thousands of German Christians are formally renouncing their faith and leaving the church in order to escape a controversial change in the tax laws.
Up to 200,000 Germans are believed to have filed official declarations last year renouncing their membership of the Protestant church, the highest number in almost two decades. A similar number are thought to have left the Catholic Church.
Church members in Germany are required by law to pay tax to fund church activities, which is collected by the government.
Under German law, anyone who was baptised as a child is automatically a member of the church and obliged to pay the tax , charged as a percentage of their income, regardless of their beliefs or whether they attend church services.
Until recently, many Christians have been prepared to pay the extra tax for the benefits it brings them, including access to church schools and day care facilities that are funded by the state.
But the only way out of paying the tax is to make a formal declaration renouncing your membership of the church – and there is a government fee for this as well.
A decision to extend the 8 or 9 per cent charge to capital gains income, or the profit earned from selling an asset, appears to have sparked the sharp decline in church membership.
The new tax regulation was “just the straw that broke the camel’s back for people who were already thinking of leaving”, Ruth Levin, spokesman for the Protestant church in Disnlaken, told Westdeutsche Allgemeine Zeitung newspaper.
The church tax has legally been payable on capital gains for some years, but the German government recently closed a loophole that enabled many church members to avoid paying it because they did not have to declare their capital gains income.
While in the past those leaving the church have often been young adults renouncing their parents’ beliefs, over the past year many are reported to have been pensioners fearing a raid on their savings income.
The decision to leave the church is more than just a formality. Although those who decide to leave cannot be excommunicated or prevented from taking part in church services, they can legally be denied certain rites, from a religious burial to access to the best state-funded schools.
Catholics who renounce their church membership are barred from confession and communion, and from the anointing of the sick, unless they are on the point of death.
Compulsory income tax on Christians drives Germans away from Protestant and Catholic churches
Up to 400,000 Germans officially filed declarations to leave the Protestant and Catholic Church after a decision to extend the 8 or 9 per cent charge to capital gains income
By Justin Huggler in BerlinHundreds of thousands of German Christians are formally renouncing their faith and leaving the church in order to escape a controversial change in the tax laws.
Up to 200,000 Germans are believed to have filed official declarations last year renouncing their membership of the Protestant church, the highest number in almost two decades. A similar number are thought to have left the Catholic Church.
Church members in Germany are required by law to pay tax to fund church activities, which is collected by the government.
Under German law, anyone who was baptised as a child is automatically a member of the church and obliged to pay the tax , charged as a percentage of their income, regardless of their beliefs or whether they attend church services.
Until recently, many Christians have been prepared to pay the extra tax for the benefits it brings them, including access to church schools and day care facilities that are funded by the state.
But the only way out of paying the tax is to make a formal declaration renouncing your membership of the church – and there is a government fee for this as well.
A decision to extend the 8 or 9 per cent charge to capital gains income, or the profit earned from selling an asset, appears to have sparked the sharp decline in church membership.
The new tax regulation was “just the straw that broke the camel’s back for people who were already thinking of leaving”, Ruth Levin, spokesman for the Protestant church in Disnlaken, told Westdeutsche Allgemeine Zeitung newspaper.
The church tax has legally been payable on capital gains for some years, but the German government recently closed a loophole that enabled many church members to avoid paying it because they did not have to declare their capital gains income.
While in the past those leaving the church have often been young adults renouncing their parents’ beliefs, over the past year many are reported to have been pensioners fearing a raid on their savings income.
The decision to leave the church is more than just a formality. Although those who decide to leave cannot be excommunicated or prevented from taking part in church services, they can legally be denied certain rites, from a religious burial to access to the best state-funded schools.
Catholics who renounce their church membership are barred from confession and communion, and from the anointing of the sick, unless they are on the point of death.
I
IanM
Guest
Part 2 of article:
The changes include German banks now having to withhold the tax on capital gains of account-holders who are church members.
Around 200,000 German Protestants renounced their church membership last year, up from 138,100 in 2012, according to provisional figures from an evangelical news agency survey published by Welt newspaper. In Bavaria, the rate of desertion rose by 62 per cent.
Figures for numbers leaving the Catholic Church in 2014 are not yet available, but 178,000 Catholics renounced their membership in 2013, up from 118,000 in 2012.
Around 30.8 per cent of Germans, or 24.7 million people, are Catholics, according to the 2011 census, while 30.3 per cent, or 24.3 million people, are Protestants.
The changes include German banks now having to withhold the tax on capital gains of account-holders who are church members.
Around 200,000 German Protestants renounced their church membership last year, up from 138,100 in 2012, according to provisional figures from an evangelical news agency survey published by Welt newspaper. In Bavaria, the rate of desertion rose by 62 per cent.
Figures for numbers leaving the Catholic Church in 2014 are not yet available, but 178,000 Catholics renounced their membership in 2013, up from 118,000 in 2012.
Around 30.8 per cent of Germans, or 24.7 million people, are Catholics, according to the 2011 census, while 30.3 per cent, or 24.3 million people, are Protestants.
G
goout
Guest
Had no idea Germany was this way.
What a terrifying overreach by the government into religion.
What a terrifying overreach by the government into religion.
I
InThePew
Guest
Religion would disagree - please give generously when the (tax) collector calls!
R
Rau
Guest
I’m not sure I’d blame the government particularly. I don’t think it is the government demanding the people pay a tax to the church. The Catholic Church could readily decide (I assume) to remove itself from this arrangement. Presumably it chooses not to do so.
T
thistle
Guest
Actually 9 European countries charge a Church tax.
C
Cirdan_XII
Guest
It’s sad to see he can get away with this and that there isn’t more of an outcry.
C
Cirdan_XII
Guest
Maybe they don’t make the news much or make much noise, but there are some very traditionalist parishes in the Netherlands. I have attended mass there. Very impressive.Then, again, there is Holland/Netherlands from which most of my relatives emigrated. I have heard little, if anything of a conservative element there…
G
goout
Guest
Ah, I see. The Church ought to just separate itself this arrangement.
C
Cirdan_XII
Guest
It’s not as easy as that.
The Church in Germany runs quite a few institutions of social and charitative nature, some of them going back 100s of years. The government recognizes this and knows it would have to pick up the tab if the Church bowed out.
About 200 years ago or so there was a massive expropriation of Church property. The Church had over the years, through people bequeathing land and money in their wills, come to own a considerable amount of land. This was rented out to tenant farmers and the rental income used to finance charitable and educational work. The government at the time deemed it necessary to take much of this land. But concerned that this would damage the financial situation of the church, and especially its ability to maintain these ministries, an alternative source of income was guaranteed.
This arrangement, with some tweaking and reforms here and there, basically survives to this day.
It is maybe also the reason the government has so much power over the Church and that the Church tends to refrain from criticizing the government.
Last edited:
R
Rau
Guest
It’s a weak guarantee I think. AFAIK it’s easily avoided. When one registers with the taxing authority, you need to say which is your religion. You can tick “none”.
- Status