In between Catholic Church and Orthodox Church

[Cavaradossi]

Is there a theological/Biblical basis for the disdain of instruments for worship?

The reasoning of several church fathers on the matter is that the human voice is the most perfect instrument, and the most suitable for worship, having been fashioned by God Himself. They interpreted the verses in the Old Testament speaking of the use of instruments as a concession made to man which is no longer necessary because of the Incarnation and our new life under grace.

 

[EIF5A]

The reasoning of several church fathers on the matter is that the human voice is the most perfect instrument, and the most suitable for worship, having been fashioned by God Himself. They interpreted the verses in the Old Testament speaking of the use of instruments as a concession made to man which is no longer necessary because of the Incarnation and our new life under grace.

Unfortunately, I have not been blessed with a harmonious voice.

What do the Incarnation and grace have to do with the use of instruments?

I wonder what the church fathers would think of beatboxing…

 

[EIF5A]

Hi. I am not in communion with either of the communions you seem to be looking into, but I have been both Protestant (was raised Presbyterian) and Roman Catholic before being received into Coptic Orthodoxy (one of the churches of the so-called “Oriental” or non-Chalcedonian family that also includes the Ethiopian, Armenian, Indian, and other churches) a year or so ago. So I can relate to the feeling of not knowing where to go because you’re not sure if you’re in the right place. Heck, I was posting here when that really came to a head for me.

My advice: Don’t post or lurk at a place like this. I mean, sure you just made this thread, so go nuts with it for the time being, but once you have gathered enough perspective to know what members of both churches would have you believe or do, keep those in mind and try to step back from it for a while. The doors of the church are always open, but you don’t want to rush through them before you know what’s on the other side. Pray a lot. Ask God to show you what you cannot find by your own reasoning. Study the scriptures and try to find versions that are in accord with each church you are looking into (translations have their own biases, after all). I know that the RCC publishes their own version(s) of the Bible, and now there is the Orthodox Study Bible, which is not without problems but does provide what seems (to an outsider) to be a pretty decent introduction to Eastern Orthodoxy.

While it was given in the context of returning the believer to God, perhaps some aspects of this sermon will help you in your confusion. I know it always helps me, and the part about not leaving God’s side until He blesses you reminds me of how I felt when I was confused about where I should go. I asked, and He answered…and sometimes that’s just what we need to avoid being in paralysis due to the conflict between needing to be right and having no idea what is right, even if we’ve been over the evidence on all sides a million times. There is definitely a limit to where listening to arguments can take us, but there is no limit to what God can do.

God be with you in your journey, EIF5A.

Thank you. There’s only one Orthodox church around where I live. I was advised not to go during the Holy Week/Paschal season because it would be quite hectic and not the “normal” Liturgical service. I will try to attend next week.

 

[Kirovsakya]

Thank you. There’s only one Orthodox church around where I live. I was advised not to go during the Holy Week/Paschal season because it would be quite hectic and not the “normal” Liturgical service. I will try to attend next week.

Kyria Eleison.

 

[wynd]

Thank you. There’s only one Orthodox church around where I live. I was advised not to go during the Holy Week/Paschal season because it would be quite hectic and not the “normal” Liturgical service. I will try to attend next week.

That’s too bad. Far from being “hectic,” Holy Week and Pascha are some of the most beautiful services in the Orthodox liturgical cycle! There’s always next year

 

[pablope]

Hello,

I’ve been lurking for a while after a thought was placed in my heart about the Catholic Church. (That was months ago, and I’ve still been searching.) Currently, I’m a Protestant (of the charismatic persuasion, no…not the jumping up and down and rolling on the floor kind), but the idea of a universal, catholic church has been appealing to me.

I don’t really have a question, but if anyone switched from RCC to OC or OC to RCC, I would love to hear your opinion.

(I’m still not sure why the Filioque was such a giant deal…it sort of seems like…semantics…? Please don’t stone me for saying that…)

Now I’m off to Mass (missed the one at 11:30 am). Thank God the parish that is two blocks away has multiple Masses… It’s actually been a while since I’ve been to Catholic Mass, even though the parish has been right there all along…

Here are some articles to help you:

chnetwork.org/2011/05/father-raymond-ryland-on-whose-authority/

catholic.com/magazine/articles/peter-and-the-eastern-orthodox

EVANGELICALS WHO JOURNEY EAST
Rev. Ray Ryland ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/1ORTHO.htm

Soloviev’s Amen - A Russian Orthodox Argument for the Papacy…catholicity.com/commentary/ryland/08198.html

The Epiphany of the Roman Primacy
Fr. Ray Ryland webspace.webring.com/people/mo/orthocath/ray.html

 

[Nine_Two]

The OC also hates chairs too apparently.

I hear this, but I have yet to see a church without chairs or pews. In the old world, or the new. Whether ancient, or built within the century.

 

[CharlesdeFoucld]

So in about the six months I first posted here, I’ve barely made 1 step and I’m just as confused now because of the claim by the Orthodox Church.

I don’t really have a question, but if anyone switched from RCC to OC or OC to RCC, I would love to hear your opinion.

It’s the tragedy of the schism that you (and I, some 15 years ago) have to make this choice.

Try to learn about Catholicism from Catholic sources and Orthodoxy from Orthodox sources. Sounds obvious, but unfortunately we often misrepresent one another’s faith in order to affirm our own.

Bishop Kallistos Ware’s An Orthodox Way is an example of this. It’s by all accounts very good, but it does constantly contrast Orthodoxy with caricatures of Catholicism that I, as a Catholic, don’t recognize.

 

[dzheremi]

I’ve only been to one OCA church, but they had chairs. We have chairs in our church, too. The only way they could be a problem is that there are many parts of our liturgy where we must prostrate ourselves, so they need to be moved (which is why we don’t have pews; chairs are at least easily moveable). It’s not that bad, though. I mean…with all the times in the liturgy when we hear “You who are seated, stand”, “Stand up in the fear of God”, or “Stand, look toward the East”, you have to figure at least some people must be sitting down beforehand! In the USA, anyway, they aren’t sitting on the floor. Things are perhaps different in parts of Egypt, Ethiopia, or wherever the “old country” is, though.

 

[Rawb]

Christ is Risen!

I used to be Roman Catholic and I converted to Orthodoxy.

Both Churches make sense within themselves, from my perspective. When you apply their arguments within the context of history and practical sense, in my opinion the clear winner is Orthodoxy. But of course I would say that - I am Orthodox. What I mean by that is that each church is internally logically consistent, as much as something which involves Virgin Births, Three-Being-One, walking on water, Bread that is not bread, and God dying can be logically consistent. The doctrines of each, internally (by which I mean within the boundaries of each church itself) make sense, so long as one doesn’t include the Eastern Catholics in the judgement of logic within Roman Catholicism (IMO). You have to determine which is telling the truth about what happened ‘back then’ and which has preserved those doctrines throughout time, and who preserved the practices if you deem the practices as important as well.

This isn’t the best site to do that, really, and I’m not sure any forum is. I have one Orthodox Forum that I feel isn’t too argumentative that I sometimes direct people too, but it’s better to avoid forums, if you can. Especially in Orthodoxy, where, as we say, you really have to experience it in order to understand it.

As a bit of biography, I was raised Protestant. At 18 I converted to Roman Catholicism and deeply loved that Church. Six years later, I left Roman Catholicism because Papal Infallibility and Supremacy were proven, to my satisfaction, to be the result of innovation and historical revisionism, because I felt they had abandoned orthopraxy, which I believe to be an essential component of belief, because I believed that the Filioque was heretical and an ‘illegal’ addition to the Creed, and because I felt the practice of Scholasticism was spiritually harmful. Leaving was the second hardest thing I’ve had to do in my life, but I feel I must follow Truth.

 

[EIF5A]

I can comprehend papal primacy, but not papal infallibility. And if you think about it, isn’t everything either spiritual or moral?

Also not sure about all the seemingly recent attributes of the Virgin Mary.

Does the Orthodox Church accept the various Marian apparitions? (e.g., Our Lady of Fatima and the three secrets?)

I honor the Blessed Virgin Mary as the Mother of God, but asking her directly to provide for things, and not just for intercessory prayer, seems…like displacing God. Though I wasn’t raised in the tradition, I can accept devotions to her, but all the other stuff…not so sure.

But I like the Catholic saints, and their writings seem to suggest we should be obedient under Rome…

There’s a particular saint, St. Catherine of Siena, who wrote of her conversation with God, and if we take it literally, God seems to place the Bishop of Rome as prime and superior.

 

[Rawb]

I can comprehend papal primacy, but not papal infallibility.

Which is an Orthodox position, though we’re still working out the details of what “primacy” entails.

And if you think about it, isn’t everything either spiritual or moral?

Yes, arguably.

Also not sure about all the seemingly recent attributes of the Virgin Mary.

Which recent attributions? If you mean things like “The Immaculate Conception” we don’t believe in that attribute, title, or dogma. If you mean “Co-Redemptorix” well, we refer to that in some of our Vesperal hymns, but we don’t mean by it the same thing the Romans mean by it (if I’m understanding correctly those Romans who’ve defined it for me.) We also believe she definitely died before she was assumed into Heaven.

Does the Orthodox Church accept the various Marian apparitions? (e.g., Our Lady of Fatima and the three secrets?)

No. The Roman Catholic apparitions are a Roman Catholic issue, we have very few Marian apparitions in our Church, and when we do they’re always a part of a saint’s hagiography, such as the time the Theotokos appeared (with Christ) to St. Nicholas of Myra.

I honor the Blessed Virgin Mary as the Mother of God, but asking her directly to provide for things, and not just for intercessory prayer, seems…like displacing God. Though I wasn’t raised in the tradition, I can accept devotions to her, but all the other stuff…not so sure.

Well, that’s something you’re going to have to deal with in either church. We honor her because she was mother of God, and she has a role as the highest ‘brag’ of humanity. We do ask her for things, but within the Orthodox context that is always via her prayers and what she did by giving birth to the Christ. In Orthodoxy, for example, every Liturgy we pray “Most Holy Theotokos, save us!” and during Pascha (Easter) we sing “Through the prayers of the Theotokos, O’ Savior, save us!” and we pray during our evening prayers, addressing the Theotokos, “…for thou art the salvation of the human race!” but it’s always, always understood in context. Nevertheless, as I said, this is something you’ll have to deal with in either Church.

But I like the Catholic saints, and their writings seem to suggest we should be obedient under Rome…

There’s a particular saint, St. Catherine of Siena, who wrote of her conversation with God, and if we take it literally, God seems to place the Bishop of Rome as prime and superior.

And the Orthodox saints say we shouldn’t be under Rome. Even the Romans would say that you shouldn’t take the personal revelation of saints for use in ‘defining’ doctrine, even though many of their people do so.

 

[dzheremi]

Does the Orthodox Church accept the various Marian apparitions? (e.g., Our Lady of Fatima and the three secrets?)

No.

But I like the Catholic saints, and their writings seem to suggest we should be obedient under Rome…

But of course. If they taught us to be obedient to Constantinople or Alexandria, they’d probably make pretty lousy Roman Catholic saints.

There’s a particular saint, St. Catherine of Siena, who wrote of her conversation with God, and if we take it literally, God seems to place the Bishop of Rome as prime and superior.

This is one of the differences between Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy. If we take as a counterpoint to that the most famous Marian apparition in history (outside of Fatima, I guess), the appearance of St. Mary atop the Coptic Orthodox Church in Zeitoun, Egypt, we can note that she did not say anything to anyone. There were no dogmas or doctrines or even confirmation of already established doctrines that were imparted via this vision. In addition, she appeared before all the people in what is a most thoroughly non-Christian environment (in fact, it was first two Muslim guards of a nearby parking garage who saw her), rather than to Catholics, confirming Catholic doctrine…

My point is not to say that you should believe in the apparition at Zeitoun (several people at my church saw it with their own eyes while still living in Egypt, but even they will say that our faith is not to be based on such things), but that there seems to be a different approach to these things outside of the RC. You will not find a novena or any such thing written to St. Mary in the wake of Zeitoun, nor any ‘secrets’ passed on as a result, nor anything but an event that many people saw, that is taken by those who believe in it as a sign that St. Mary is with Egyptians in their troubles.

Speaking as an individual Orthodox person, I think there is much wisdom in being extremely guarded in our approach to any supposed apparition. The daemons try to distract and weaken the monks by similar tactics, so why not us as well?

 

[EIF5A]

I have also read various Orthodox writings about guardian angels. Do you pray to this angel as well like one does to St. Michael or Raphael?

 

[EIF5A]

No. The Roman Catholic apparitions are a Roman Catholic issue, we have very few Marian apparitions in our Church, and when we do they’re always a part of a saint’s hagiography, such as the time the Theotokos appeared (with Christ) to St. Nicholas of Myra.

Would the encounter of St. Mary of Egypt count as a Marian apparition?

 

[EIF5A]

I bring up St. Catherine of Siena as a particular case because the claim is direct conversation with God, not just her formulation of her spiritual thoughts.

It inspires a life of charity, virtue, and humility, but also mentions the Real Presence of the Eucharist (something I had an issue with) and devotion to the Virgin Mary (another issue I struggled with, although nothing that I can remember in her book writes about Immaculate Conception or being Co-Mediatrix). In her book, God mentions how she read about the Desert Fathers and the virtue of obedience in “The Sayings of the Desert Fathers”. Coincidentally, or may not, I saw and read “The Sayings” on my roommate’s bookshelf – she’s sort of Buddhist/Hindu/Eastern philosophy, so I was surprised that she would have this book.

And I picked up “The Dialog” by St. Catherine from Amazon after reading the comments about how life-changing it is (and for me, it has been).

Either these two books (and trust me, I don’t like to read) randomly came into my life, or they’re being used by God for my spiritual growth.

One is Catholic, and the other leans more towards Orthodoxy, although “The Sayings” were written before the schism.

But I suppose papal infallibility and Immaculate Conception came after St. Catherine wrote her book…

 

[dzheremi]

If I’m understanding you correctly, you read the Sayings of the Desert Fathers after reading that the saint you are interested in had read them. That’s good, but I can’t help but wonder: The sayings are the original source of what apparently went into Catherine of Sienna’s formation, so why not stick with them likewise? Granted, I am extremely biased as a Coptic Orthodox Christian (the Desert Fathers being a quintessentially Egyptian source of spiritual wisdom, even though they were by no means all ethnic Egyptians/Copts…I’m not, either), but I do not think their wisdom can be improved upon even to the smallest degree by any later writer, particularly from outside of Orthodoxy…

 

[singletruth]

Hello,

I’ve been lurking for a while after a thought was placed in my heart about the Catholic Church. (That was months ago, and I’ve still been searching.) Currently, I’m a Protestant (of the charismatic persuasion, no…not the jumping up and down and rolling on the floor kind), but the idea of a universal, catholic church has been appealing to me.

Then I discovered that there was such a thing as the Orthodox Church who also claims to be the true catholic church. Confused, I looked into their history, and they seem to make sense as well.

So now, I’m just kind of torn because I do want to find a spiritual home, and on the one side, I’m leaning towards the Catholic Church because they do seem to be Catholic in the global, worldwide sense (and perhaps primacy of Peter is true), but the Orthodox Church is also appealing because, well, they don’t seem to have statues (yes, I know, that sounds like an idiotic reason) and they don’t have quite an intellectual, rational approach to every spiritual mystery. Both Churches place a heavier emphasis on the Virgin Mary/Theotokos that I’m still not quite familiar with (e.g., Queen of Heaven, Bride of God). (I still have baggage leftover from reading/hearing about the Catholic Church being the h*rlot and all that business…)

The one major issue is the Real Presence of the Eucharist. My current church believes Communion is only symbolic. But I feel drawn to believe that Christ our Savior is present. (This belief has been made more firm after reading The Dialog of St. Catherine of Siena.)

So in about the six months I first posted here, I’ve barely made 1 step and I’m just as confused now because of the claim by the Orthodox Church.

I don’t really have a question, but if anyone switched from RCC to OC or OC to RCC, I would love to hear your opinion.

(I’m still not sure why the Filioque was such a giant deal…it sort of seems like…semantics…? Please don’t stone me for saying that…)

Now I’m off to Mass (missed the one at 11:30 am). Thank God the parish that is two blocks away has multiple Masses… It’s actually been a while since I’ve been to Catholic Mass, even though the parish has been right there all along…

gee why not do both?

unless you think it’s a sin??

youtu.be/I1PFyiyWuVs

 

[CharlesdeFoucld]

I can comprehend papal primacy, but not papal infallibility. And if you think about it, isn’t everything either spiritual or moral?

May I make one small observation? The phrases ‘papal infallibility’ and ‘infallible pope’ were never once used in Pastor Aeternus, the document that defines the pope’s charism of teaching infallibly under specific circumstances. The expression ‘papal infallibility’ is sometimes used (sloppily) even by Catholics, but it risks obscuring the doctrine, which is rooted in the infallibility of the Church, and the bishop of Rome’s role as president of the episcopate.

But I suppose papal infallibility and Immaculate Conception came after St. Catherine wrote her book…

They were defined long after the fourteenth century, but well known long before. St. Catherine would’ve been well-acquainted with both.

The nineteenth century definition of the charism of infallibility is actually much more restrained and limited than what had been understood in the West previously. St. Catherine may have held a much more robust notion of the pope’s charism than that proscribed by the First Vatican Council.

Feasts to the Conception of Mary proceed St. Catherine by several centuries, and enjoyed wide popular support.

I hope this is of use to you. If not, I’ll gladly butt out, as I have an almost reverential respect for the discernment process.

Keeping you in prayer,
Charles

 

[EIF5A]

If I’m understanding you correctly, you read the Sayings of the Desert Fathers after reading that the saint you are interested in had read them. That’s good, but I can’t help but wonder: The sayings are the original source of what apparently went into Catherine of Sienna’s formation, so why not stick with them likewise? Granted, I am extremely biased as a Coptic Orthodox Christian (the Desert Fathers being a quintessentially Egyptian source of spiritual wisdom, even though they were by no means all ethnic Egyptians/Copts…I’m not, either), but I do not think their wisdom can be improved upon even to the smallest degree by any later writer, particularly from outside of Orthodoxy…

I read St. Catherine’s book first, but not all of it. Then I picked up The Sayings from my roommate’s bookshelf and finished that one. Then I went back and finished The Dialog, and when I went back to finish it, the second half contained the story of a Desert Father which St. Catherine writes about. (Actually, it is God who reminded her that she had read about them, and God tells her how much He loves obedience.)

Again, I only mention her specifically because she claims to have directly conversed with God under a state of ecstasy, I believe – correct me if I’m wrong.

Granted, The Dialog says nothing about the Orthodox Church and her bishops, but does mention obedience to the pope and how we should not talk maliciously about priests, even if they are in sin, because they consecrate the Bread and Wine, and to do so is an offense to God.

St. Catherine does not go against the Desert Fathers, nor does she expound upon them — The Sayings was just mentioned in her book in relations to her conversation with God, and I found it curious that someone like me who doesn’t read (at all) just happen to come across these two particular books.