In Defense of Islam

[elwill]

and you should not dwell on the past, but rather in the present!, so don’t tell us we need to get off our high horse…you want to promote/defend islam , then that’s your prerogative, but don’t come to a Catholic forum and expect the Catholics/Christians here to recognize and agree that the list you provided somehow shows islam as a “good” religion.

Regarding Objection 2, you said it was a custom at the time for “child” marriages, yeah, your right a child marrying a child, not a 52 yr old man marrying a 6yr old girl, and then consummating the marriage at 9yr!!. And to top it all off, he claimed that the Almighty Allah showed Ayesha in a dream, and Allah said “OK, go ahead mohammed, i allow you to marry ayesha”…and you call him prophet, yeah a false prophet!

The analogy of the founding fathers is baseless and ridiculous, why, because the founding fathers of the United States were not prophets and did not claim to be a universal prophet for all mankind. So they keeping salves is not the same as mohammed the so called universal prophet marrying a 6 yr old!

what was the true age of aaisha ? !!!

A great misconception prevails as to the age at which Aisha was taken in marriage by the Prophet. Ibn Sa‘d has stated in the Tabaqat that when Abu Bakr [father of Aisha] was approached on behalf of the Holy Prophet, he replied that the girl had already been betrothed to Jubair, and that he would have to settle the matter first with him. This shows that Aisha must have been approaching majority at the time.
Again, the Isaba, speaking of the Prophet’s daughter Fatima, says that she was born five years before the Call and was about five years older than Aisha. This shows that Aisha must have been about ten years at the time of her betrothal to the Prophet, and not six years as she is generally supposed to be.
This is further borne out by the fact that Aisha herself is reported to have stated that when the chapter [of the Holy Quran] entitled The Moon, the fifty-fourth chapter, was revealed, she was a girl playing about and remembered certain verses then revealed. Now the fifty-fourth chapter was undoubtedly revealed before the sixth year of the Call.

All these considerations point to but one conclusion, viz., that Aisha could not have been less than ten years of age at the time of her nikah, which was virtually only a betrothal. And there is one report in the Tabaqat that Aisha was nine years of age at the time of nikah. Again it is a fact admitted on all hands that the nikah of Aisha took place in the tenth year of the Call in the month of Shawwal, while there is also preponderance of evidence as to the consummation of her marriage taking place in the second year of Hijra in the same month, which shows that full five years had elapsed between the nikah and the consummation. Hence there is not the least doubt that Aisha was at least nine or ten years of age at the time of betrothal, and fourteen or fifteen years at the time of marriage

 

[elwill]

Regarding Objection 2, you said it was a custom at the time for “child” marriages, yeah, your right a child marrying a child,** not a 52 yr old man marrying a 6yr old girl, and then consummating the marriage at 9yr!!. **And to top it all off, he claimed that the Almighty Allah showed Ayesha in a dream, and Allah said “OK, go ahead mohammed, i allow you to marry ayesha”…and you call him prophet, yeah a false prophet!

In the book of Genesis in the Bible it is recorded about Abraham:

“Now Sarai, Abram’s wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian maidservant named Hagar; so she said to Abram, ‘The Lord has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my maidservant; perhaps I can build a family through her.’ Abram agreed to what Sarai said. So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian maidservant Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife. He slept with Hagar, and she conceived. … So Hagar bore Abram a son, and Abram gave the name Ishmael to the son she had borne. Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore him Ishmael.” (Genesis, chapter 16, verses 1–4, and 15–16, New International Version. Bolding is mine.)

Firstly, it is evident that as Abraham (who then had the name Abram) was 86 years old, Hagar must have been some fifty years younger than him, and probably even younger, to bear a child. Secondly, the Bible speaks of Sarai giving her maidservant Hagar to Abraham. So Hagar’s consent was not obtained but rather she was commanded by Sarai to go and become Abraham’s wife.

now , tell me do you believe that abrahm (pbuh) is a prophet although he married very younger woman and may be without her consent !

 

[s4angel]

As many of you who knew me when I first began, I was curiouse about islam, I no longer hold on to false beliefs about what they believe but I do know that maby you should read it again, this time open your eyes! Many good things are said, many truths are told but then again maby you should read again…

 

[planten]

what was the true age of aaisha ? !!!

A great misconception prevails as to the age at which Aisha was taken in marriage by the Prophet. Ibn Sa‘d has stated in the Tabaqat that when Abu Bakr [father of Aisha] was approached on behalf of the Holy Prophet, he replied that the girl had already been betrothed to Jubair, and that he would have to settle the matter first with him. This shows that Aisha must have been approaching majority at the time.
Again, the Isaba, speaking of the Prophet’s daughter Fatima, says that she was born five years before the Call and was about five years older than Aisha. This shows that Aisha must have been about ten years at the time of her betrothal to the Prophet, and not six years as she is generally supposed to be.
This is further borne out by the fact that Aisha herself is reported to have stated that when the chapter [of the Holy Quran] entitled The Moon, the fifty-fourth chapter, was revealed, she was a girl playing about and remembered certain verses then revealed. Now the fifty-fourth chapter was undoubtedly revealed before the sixth year of the Call.

All these considerations point to but one conclusion, viz., that Aisha could not have been less than ten years of age at the time of her nikah, which was virtually only a betrothal. And there is one report in the Tabaqat that Aisha was nine years of age at the time of nikah. Again it is a fact admitted on all hands that the nikah of Aisha took place in the tenth year of the Call in the month of Shawwal, while there is also preponderance of evidence as to the consummation of her marriage taking place in the second year of Hijra in the same month, which shows that full five years had elapsed between the nikah and the consummation. Hence there is not the least doubt that Aisha was at least nine or ten years of age at the time of betrothal, and fourteen or fifteen years at the time of marriage

Elwill, I had explaind in an earlier post that Aisha was about 17 years old when she was married with the prophet. The reason was as follows:

All the children of Hazrat Abu Bakr r.a. were borne befor ethe prophet got the first Wahi, i.e. year 610 A.D. So Aisha may have been born in year 608 A.D. She was married to the prophet in year 625 A.D. That makes her 17 year old.

Also it is recorded that when the prophet got permission from Allah to migrate (to leave the city of Makkah), he went to the hous eof Abu Bakr and gave him the news. Abu Bakr requested to accompany the prophet in his hazardous journey. So that prophet is not alone. The Prophet Muhammad agreed to let Abu Bakr come along. That was day time and prophet told Abu Bakr to be ready at night.
In the night the Prophet went to Abu Bakr house secretly. It was Aisha who had prepared food for the two travellers. She was old enough to prepare and tie up the food. She used part of her garment (head gear) to do that. She was about 15 years old at that time.

Our christian friends cannot find anything good in the books of Hadith. They just pick something bad which is written by some one. It is not the word of God.It is not the words of the prophet Muhammad.It is not the words of Aisha or her father. Just some one wrote something and it became useful fo the catholics or Protestants to malign Muhammad.

We are not bothered by such things, such false reports. I wish we could rather seek out from the seeker about the many unmarried mothers in the church and so many unmarried fathers in the church system. That would be better seek and search and research to keep the Protestants busy for a while. Why they have unmarried mothers and unmarried fathers in the church.

 

[elwill]

Elwill, I had explaind in an earlier post that Aisha was about 17 years old when she was married with the prophet. The reason was as follows:

All the children of Hazrat Abu Bakr r.a. were borne befor ethe prophet got the first Wahi, i.e. year 610 A.D. So Aisha may have been born in year 608 A.D. She was married to the prophet in year 625 A.D. That makes her 17 year old.

Also it is recorded that when the prophet got permission from Allah to migrate (to leave the city of Makkah), he went to the hous eof Abu Bakr and gave him the news. Abu Bakr requested to accompany the prophet in his hazardous journey. So that prophet is not alone. The Prophet Muhammad agreed to let Abu Bakr come along. That was day time and prophet told Abu Bakr to be ready at night.
In the night the Prophet went to Abu Bakr house secretly. It was Aisha who had prepared food for the two travellers. She was old enough to prepare and tie up the food. She used part of her garment (head gear) to do that. She was about 15 years old at that time.

Our christian friends cannot find anything good in the books of Hadith. They just pick something bad which is written by some one. It is not the word of God.It is not the words of the prophet Muhammad.It is not the words of Aisha or her father. Just some one wrote something and it became useful fo the catholics or Protestants to malign Muhammad.

We are not bothered by such things, such false reports. I wish we could rather seek out from the seeker about the many unmarried mothers in the church and so many unmarried fathers in the church system. That would be better seek and search and research to keep the Protestants busy for a while. Why they have unmarried mothers and unmarried fathers in the church.

planten , that’s why i beginned my post with a question
my main point is that , the age of aaisha is controversial issue
you can consider my post about her age was talking about least supposition age if we take under consideration the entire records ,

the logic says that their somthing wrong here , whether aisha’s age to be 9 is a fake or that all these other records are the fake

no mattar with me what was her accurate age , we have million of things are more valuable and more important to learn about from biography of mohammed (pbuh)

 

[Sam_777]

the logic says that their somthing wrong here , whether aisha’s age to be 9 is a fake or that all these other records are the fake

Then the logic says we should consider all the hadiths by Bukhari & Muslim to be also fake …

Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3309:
“'A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina and I had an attack of fever for a month, and my hair had come down to the earlobes. Umm Ruman (my mother) came to me and I was at that time on a swing along with my playmates. She called me loudly and I went to her and I did not know what she had wanted of me. She took hold of my hand and took me to the door, and I was saying: Ha, ha (as if I was gasping), until the agitation of my heart was over. She took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have share in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and embellished me and nothing frightened me. Allah’s Messenger (, may peace be upon him) came there in the morning, and I was entrusted to him.”

صحيح مسلم - النكاح - تزويج الأب البكر الصغيرة:
تزوجني رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏لست سنين ‏ ‏وبنى بي ‏ ‏وأنا بنت تسع سنين قالت فقدمنا ‏ ‏المدينة ‏ ‏فوعكت ‏ ‏شهرا ‏ ‏فوفى ‏ ‏شعري ‏ ‏جميمة ‏ ‏فأتتني ‏ ‏أم رومان ‏ ‏وأنا على أرجوحة ومعي صواحبي فصرخت بي فأتيتها وما أدري ما تريد بي فأخذت بيدي فأوقفتني على الباب فقلت هه هه حتى ذهب نفسي فأدخلتني بيتا فإذا نسوة من ‏ ‏الأنصار ‏ ‏فقلن على الخير والبركة وعلى خير ‏ ‏طائر ‏ ‏فأسلمتني إليهن فغسلن رأسي وأصلحنني فلم ‏ ‏يرعني ‏ ‏إلا ورسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏ضحى فأسلمنني إليه ‏
​

(E) (A)

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64:
“*Narrated 'Aisha:*that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).”

صحيح البخاري - النكاح - إنكاح الرجل ولده الصغار:
حدثنا ‏ ‏محمد بن يوسف ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏سفيان ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏هشام ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبيه ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عائشة ‏ ‏رضي الله عنها ‏
أن النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏تزوجها وهي بنت ست سنين وأدخلت عليه وهي بنت تسع ومكثت عنده تسعا ‏
​

(E) (A)

 

[elwill]

Then the logic says we should consider all the hadiths by Bukhari & Muslim to be also fake …

this is your logic

the logic i know that , it’s not necessery that all hadith are fake because some of them are under doubts

actually the prophet (pbuh) himsel prophesied that the lies will be told in his tongue after his death , and he commanded us to be care and reject whatever contradicts the quran or entire teaching and readitions of islam

 

[bolsheviks]

Certainly the Assyrians, Copts, Maronites, Armenians, Arab Christians and others who suffered and continue to suffer under Islamic hegemony in their native countries are not making it all up.

I’m part Armenian.

This is a consistent misconception that I see. The Turks absolutely brutalized the Armenians in the late Ottoman Empire, but it was for secular reasons, contrary to popular belief.

In fact, many surrounding Muslim majority countries welcomed the fleeing Armenian refugees into their societies. There’s still significant Armenian populations in Iran, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan who have never been under threat of persecution to date.

 

[dzheremi]

Bolshevik,

To a certain extent, I agree. I know several Armenians, all of whom DO agree that the repression by the “Young Turks” in the Ottoman Empire (with their ideology of Pan-Turkism which inevitably had very negative consequences for the non-Turks like Armenians, Assyrians, and Greeks) was from political, not religious ideologies. Or at least if there was religious bias involved, it was not a matter of official policy. They were accused of revolutionary insurrection and propaganda, much like the Kurds have been accused of (ironic, given well-known Kurdish participation in the Armenian genocide).

However, there is more to it than that particular series of events. I have done a fair bit of research into the modern (WWI and onward) history of the Assyrians, and have for obvious reasons also learned quite a bit about Armenians, who are generally the other recognizable Christian body in whatever country I’ve looked at. With regard to Iran, for instance, while the Armenians and the Assyrians are by and large left alone today (not completely, of course; do you know the story of Haik Hovsepian Mehr?), this was certainly not the case in the past. After the revolution, for instance, non-Persian schools (such as the schools set up by Assyrians and Armenians to teach their languages to their children) were ordered closed by government directive in October of 1981. It is my understanding that even today Armenians or other non-Muslims who wish to enter the public service sector in Iran must first pass Islamic theology tests (or at least that was the case under the “reformer” Khatami. I can’t imagine it is any better under Ahmedinejad; see this report for more details).

So, please do not assume that I am only talking about the genocide

 

[bolsheviks]

I guess it is naive to think there’s no persecution in a country that self-identifies as an “Islamic” republic.

Suffice it to say, the few family members I have that still live in Iran, who are mainly elderly, don’t seem to feel persecuted. My mom is mainly my source of information about this stuff (between her local Armenian connections and then our huge family that mainly lives in the Boston area). I guess that’s what I was basing my opinion on.

Oh well. I certainly think the majority of the Muslim world could stand a little Enlightenment.

 

[elwill]

you don’t have to trust every word be saying by members here , as i don’t expect that you will trust me
how can we get benefits from such discussion ? it’s by collecting information then testing them then use your mind . logic , rational and honesty to come up with conclusions

i don’t impose anyone to hold the beliefs or the thoughts i have , i just give you a tools and the means which made me come with such openion

i didn’t said that the hadeeth which says that aisha was 6 is fake then full stop
i gave you from the historic records which proof to me that with reference of these records the age for aishah to be 6 will be impossible

it’s not blind thoughts nor self desire , i have a reasons for my thoughts . if you found it unlogic then discuss these reasons with me and convince me that i’m wrong

 

[Seeker]

In the book of Genesis in the Bible it is recorded about Abraham:

“Now Sarai, Abram’s wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian maidservant named Hagar; so she said to Abram, ‘The Lord has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my maidservant; perhaps I can build a family through her.’ Abram agreed to what Sarai said. So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian maidservant Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife. He slept with Hagar, and she conceived. … So Hagar bore Abram a son, and Abram gave the name Ishmael to the son she had borne. Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore him Ishmael.” (Genesis, chapter 16, verses 1–4, and 15–16, New International Version. Bolding is mine.)

Firstly, it is evident that as Abraham (who then had the name Abram) was 86 years old, Hagar must have been some fifty years younger than him, and probably even younger, to bear a child. Secondly, the Bible speaks of Sarai giving her maidservant Hagar to Abraham. So Hagar’s consent was not obtained but rather she was commanded by Sarai to go and become Abraham’s wife.

now , tell me do you believe that abrahm (pbuh) is a prophet although he married very younger woman and may be without her consent !

OK, firstly, you are speculating the age of Hagar, when you say “she must have been some fifty years younger”, that is pure speculation, you don’t have proof. If you use that kind of argument, then I could say that Hagar could have also been 40, 50 or even 60 yrs of age, because we know today there are women who can conceive and have conceived in those age categories.
Click link:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy_over_age_50#Age_60_to_64

Secondly, even if Hagar was 50 yrs younger than Abraham as you supposedly stated, she would still be 36 yrs, and she would be considered an adult. Mohammed was 52 yrs old, and married Aisha who was 6 yr old, a 46 yr difference!

You mentioned consent, you stated that Hagar did not given consent, really, how do you know, again you are speculating. Here’s the versus from Genesis chapter 16: 1-4:

1 Now Sarai, Abram’s wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian maidservant named Hagar; 2 so she said to Abram, “The LORD has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my maidservant; perhaps I can build a family through her.”
Abram agreed to what Sarai said. 3 So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian maidservant Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife. 4 He slept with Hagar, and she conceived.

It says in verse 4 “Sarai his wife took her Egyptian maidservant Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife”. So technically Abraham took Hagar as his wife, correct, i think u muslims believe that too. This means according to traditional laws (and here is am going to speculate like you), there would have been consent, either direct consent like Abraham would have asked Hagar “will u be my wife” or Sarai would have consented on behalf of Hagar to Abraham, just like Aisha’s mother did on her behalf. If Hagar did not consent, then Ishmael would have been an illegitimate son of Abraham, which would mean all the arabs who are the descendants of Ishmael would be illegitimate, including mohammed!!! Would you accept it??

Now as for Aisha giving her consent, was it really her or her mother that spoke on Aisha’s behalf, as i mentioned above??. Well according to the hadith below in bold-italics it was Aisah’s mother.
Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3309:
"'A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina and I had an attack of fever for a month, and my hair had come down to the earlobes. Umm Ruman (my mother) came to me and I was at that time on a swing along with my playmates. She called me loudly and I went to her and I did not know what she had wanted of me. She took hold of my hand and took me to the door, and I was saying: Ha, ha (as if I was gasping), until the agitation of my heart was over. She took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have share in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and embellished me and nothing frightened me. Allah’s Messenger (, may peace be upon him) came there in the morning, and I was entrusted to him."

So basically Aisha was playing when she was called by her mother, she was so engrossed in her playing activity, that she was gasped like a child would for air " ha ha" . She was then taken, cleaned and groomed, and then in morning she was entrusted to mohammed. Where was her consent? So now I am going to ask you the same question you asked me:
Do you believe that mohammed is a prophet although he married a child at the age of 6yrs, without her consent, but rather her mother’s consent?? "

 

[Seeker]

what was the true age of aaisha ? !!!

Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3309:
"'A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64:
“Narrated 'Aisha:that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).”



A great misconception prevails as to the age at which Aisha was taken in marriage by the Prophet. Ibn Sa‘d has stated in the Tabaqat that when Abu Bakr [father of Aisha] was approached on behalf of the Holy Prophet, he replied that the girl had already been betrothed to Jubair, and that he would have to settle the matter first with him. This shows that Aisha must have been approaching majority at the time.
Again, the Isaba, speaking of the Prophet’s daughter Fatima, says that she was born five years before the Call and was about five years older than Aisha. This shows that Aisha must have been about ten years at the time of her betrothal to the Prophet, and not six years as she is generally supposed to be.
This is further borne out by the fact that Aisha herself is reported to have stated that when the chapter [of the Holy Quran] entitled The Moon, the fifty-fourth chapter, was revealed, she was a girl playing about and remembered certain verses then revealed. Now the fifty-fourth chapter was undoubtedly revealed before the sixth year of the Call.

All these considerations point to but one conclusion, viz., that Aisha could not have been less than ten years of age at the time of her nikah, which was virtually only a betrothal. And there is one report in the Tabaqat that Aisha was nine years of age at the time of nikah. Again it is a fact admitted on all hands that the nikah of Aisha took place in the tenth year of the Call in the month of Shawwal, while there is also preponderance of evidence as to the consummation of her marriage taking place in the second year of Hijra in the same month, which shows that full five years had elapsed between the nikah and the consummation. Hence there is not the least doubt that Aisha was at least nine or ten years of age at the time of betrothal, and fourteen or fifteen years at the time of marriage

So what made the earliest muslim commentators Shahi Muslim and Bukhari to write what they wrote, are you saying that they are wrong???..I mean these are your own hadiths, and based upon islamic sunni scholarship these are the most authentic hadiths, Bukhari is # 1 and Muslim is # 2, see below:

Sahih Bukhari
Muhammad Ibn Ismail Ibn Ibrahim Ibn al-Mughirah Ibn Bardizbah al-Bukhari (Arabic: محمد بن اسماعيل بن ابراهيم بن المغيرة بن بردزبه البخاري), popularly known as Al-Bukhari (Arabic: البخاري‎) or Imam Bukhari (194/810—256/870), was a famous Sunni Islamic scholar of Persian ancestry.[2][3] He was, perhaps, best known for authoring the hadith collection named Sahih Bukhari, a collection which Sunni Muslims regard as the most authentic of all hadith compilations and the most authoritative book after the Qur’an.
link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahih_Bukhari

Sahih Muslim
Sahih Muslim (Arabic: صحيح مسلم, ṣaḥīḥ Muslim, full title Al-Musnadu Al-Sahihu bi Naklil Adli) is one of the Six major collections of the hadith in Sunni Islam, oral traditions relating to the words and deeds of the Islamic Prophet Muhammad. It is the second most authentic hadith collection according to Sunni Muslims, the most authentic book of hadith after Sahih Al-Bukhari. It was collected by Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj, also known as Imam Muslim.
link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahih_Muslim

 

[Seeker]

Elwill, I had explaind in an earlier post that Aisha was about 17 years old when she was married with the prophet. The reason was as follows:

All the children of Hazrat Abu Bakr r.a. were borne befor ethe prophet got the first Wahi, i.e. year 610 A.D. So Aisha may have been born in year 608 A.D. She was married to the prophet in year 625 A.D. That makes her 17 year old.

Also it is recorded that when the prophet got permission from Allah to migrate (to leave the city of Makkah), he went to the hous eof Abu Bakr and gave him the news. Abu Bakr requested to accompany the prophet in his hazardous journey. So that prophet is not alone. The Prophet Muhammad agreed to let Abu Bakr come along. That was day time and prophet told Abu Bakr to be ready at night.
In the night the Prophet went to Abu Bakr house secretly. It was Aisha who had prepared food for the two travellers. She was old enough to prepare and tie up the food. She used part of her garment (head gear) to do that. She was about 15 years old at that time.

Our christian friends cannot find anything good in the books of Hadith. They just pick something bad which is written by some one. It is not the word of God.It is not the words of the prophet Muhammad.It is not the words of Aisha or her father. Just some one wrote something and it became useful fo the catholics or Protestants to malign Muhammad.

We are not bothered by such things, such false reports. I wish we could rather seek out from the seeker about the many unmarried mothers in the church and so many unmarried fathers in the church system. That would be better seek and search and research to keep the Protestants busy for a while. Why they have unmarried mothers and unmarried fathers in the church.

hahah…lol Planten, you amaze me by your comments.

So are you saying that what is written by Sahih Bukhari and Muslim as something bad which is written by some one and Just some one wrote something and it became useful fo the catholics or Protestants to malign Muhammad, Really?? Is not Sahih Bukhari and Muslim authentic hadiths ??

Secondly what does unmarried mothers and fathers in the Chruch have to do with mohammed and his marriage to aisha the 6 yr old?? Please don’t digress from the topic at hand like most Muslims do when put into a difficult situation.

 

[Seeker]

you don’t have to trust every word be saying by members here , as i don’t expect that you will trust me
how can we get benefits from such discussion ? it’s by collecting information then testing them then use your mind . logic , rational and honesty to come up with conclusions
So then were Bukhari and Muslim were not logical, rational or honest with their conclusions??

i don’t impose anyone to hold the beliefs or the thoughts i have , i just give you a tools and the means which made me come with such openion
And we too have given you proof

i didn’t said that the hadeeth which says that aisha was 6 is fake then full stop
i gave you from the historic records which proof to me that with reference of these records the age for aishah to be 6 will be impossible
** then why did Bukahri and Muslim state she was 6yrs old?? How did they come up with that age???
Secondly, what hadiths are you using for your proof, and why according to you Bukhari and Muslim are not convincing enough, what makes you challenge them??
**

it’s not blind thoughts nor self desire , i have a reasons for my thoughts . if you found it unlogic then discuss these reasons with me and convince me that i’m wrong
why do we have to convince you that you are wrong, your own hadiths prove that you are wrong

 

[elwill]

So what made the earliest muslim commentators Shahi Muslim and Bukhari to write what they wrote, are you saying that they are wrong???..I mean these are your own hadiths, and based upon islamic sunni scholarship these are the most authentic hadiths, Bukhari is # 1 and Muslim is # 2, see below:

Sahih Bukhari
Muhammad Ibn Ismail Ibn Ibrahim Ibn al-Mughirah Ibn Bardizbah al-Bukhari (Arabic: محمد بن اسماعيل بن ابراهيم بن المغيرة بن بردزبه البخاري), popularly known as Al-Bukhari (Arabic: البخاري‎) or Imam Bukhari (194/810—256/870), was a famous Sunni Islamic scholar of Persian ancestry.[2][3] He was, perhaps, best known for authoring the hadith collection named Sahih Bukhari, a collection which Sunni Muslims regard as the most authentic of all hadith compilations and the most authoritative book after the Qur’an.
link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahih_Bukhari

Sahih Muslim
Sahih Muslim (Arabic: صحيح مسلم, ṣaḥīḥ Muslim, full title Al-Musnadu Al-Sahihu bi Naklil Adli) is one of the Six major collections of the hadith in Sunni Islam, oral traditions relating to the words and deeds of the Islamic Prophet Muhammad. It is the second most authentic hadith collection according to Sunni Muslims, the most authentic book of hadith after Sahih Al-Bukhari. It was collected by Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj, also known as Imam Muslim.
link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahih_Muslim

all what you said is perfectly right , these are our own hadeeth and based upon islamic sunni scholarship , and they did very great and honest work by collecting these hadeeths , and we consider them one of the most authentic sources in islam

but i believe that it’s a work of human after all , it can’t to be 100% correct

“It is reported from Aisha that she said: The Prophet entered into marriage with me when I was a girl of six … and at the time [of joining his household] I was a girl of nine years of age.”
“Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed [alone] for two years or so. He married Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old.”

As to the authenticity of these reports, the compilers of the books of Hadith did not apply the same stringent tests when accepting reports relating to historical matters as they did before accepting reports relating to the practical teachings and laws of Islam. The reason is that the former type of report was regarded as merely of academic interest while the latter type of report had a direct bearing on the practical duties of a Muslim and on what was allowed to them and what was prohibited. Thus the occurrence of reports such as the above about the marriage of Aisha in books of Hadith, even in Bukhari, is not necessarily a proof of their credibility.

 

[elwill]

why do we have to convince you that you are wrong, your own hadiths prove that you are wrong

the hadeeth are very important source in islam , but it dosn’t equate the quran .
we consider the hadeeth to be historic records , records which may be wrong and may be right and may be accurate and may be not accurate or fabricated
we consider the hadeeth which collected in sahih bukhary and muslim to be the most authentic because they followed some rules in accepting the hadeeth , they collected them with careness . yet it’s not perfect

**the only book which we believe to be perfect and have zero errors is the quran **

 

[Sam_777]

 

[qwerk]

Listening, or reading, from Muslims is very confusing sometimes. So who do you trust? Their texts or an individual Muslim?

Muslim-ology is not a reliable method since it is a branch of sociology and has all of its limitations. How many Muslims do you have to ask? Which ones do you believe if there are contradictions? Besides, if what a Muslim says disagrees with the Koran and the Sunna (what Mohammed did and said) it is wrong. If it agrees with the Koran and the Sunna, then it is redundant. The only Muslim who counts is Mohammed. Therefore, the only reliable answer comes from the doctrine of the Koran and the Sunna. There is only one other basis for studying Islam–its doctrine

The words of Allah are only about 17% of the total doctrinal texts. The words and actions of Mohammed comprise 83% of the doctrine of Islam.

source.

 

[dzheremi]

I wouldn’t trust the individual Muslim any more than the individual Christian, individual Buddhist, individual Hindu, etc. People are people, and even when they mean well they’re often ill-informed. I should know. I’ve been a person all my life, even though the Qur’an calls me a son of an ape or a pig or something like that.