In Defense of Joseph Smith

[Stephen168]

The Bible teaches that in the church first come apostles, second prophets, so… where are the apostles? Apparently the need for apostles has been explained away. So, if an early Christian came to the Catholic church, not knowing the new organization. He would have been excommunicated if he didn’t embrace it and accept the Pope’s authority.

The first Christians were Catholic, so an early Christian would already be in the Church, and would have submitted to the authority of his Bishop.

Joseph Smith called himself ‘President’ which is not in the Bible. He didn’t create Mormon apostles until five years after he invented his church, so clearly Joseph Smith knew that Apostles were not necessary for any authority in his church. Mormon apostles were missionaries. It was Brigham Young who elevated mormon apostles as a symbol of authority, so he could unlawfully take over the Mormon Church after Joseph Smith died.

 

[TexanKnight]

If you don’t like Joseph Smith’s claim, what do you think about John 14:12 (KJV)?

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Jesus clearly said that those who believe on Him will do greater works than Him.

There is a difference between "greater works: and doing more to hold the Church together than even Jesus…

 

[PaulDupre1]

I’m not sure about the revenge part, how do you regulate that?

Revenge was regulated under the Mosaic law in two ways:

1: The Mosaic law of “An eye for an eye”, etc. See Deut 15:22. Before this law, when someone would injure a member of your family, you would take revenge by giving a greater injury. Then that guy’s family would deal a still greater injury to your family, etc etc. Under the law of Moses, revenge is a one-time thing and can only equal the injury given; no more.

2: Cities of refuge. Please read this explanation from GotQuestions.org:

Question: "What were the cities of refuge in the Old Testament?"

Answer: The cities of refuge were part of the distribution of the Promised Land among the twelve tribes of Israel. Only one tribe, the Levites, was not given land to develop. Instead, they were to be the priests of the Lord and the overseers of the tabernacle and all its rites and furnishings. Only the Levites could carry and set up the tabernacle (Numbers 2:5-13). As the Levites were to have no territorial domain allocated to them like the other tribes on the conquest of Canaan, they were to be distributed throughout the land in certain cities appropriated to their use. Part of their inheritance consisted of forty-eight cities spread throughout the land (Numbers 35:6-7). Of these forty-eight cities, six were designated as cities of refuge. The cities were Kedesh, Shechem, Hebron, Bezer, Romath, and Golan (Joshua 20:7-8).

The Mosaic Law stated that anyone who committed a murder was to be put to death (Exodus 21:14). But for unintentional deaths, God set aside these cities to which the murderer could flee for refuge (Exodus 21:13). He would be safe from the avenger—the family member charged with avenging the victim’s death (Numbers 35:19)—until the case could go to trial. The congregation would judge to find if the attacker acted unintentionally. If he did, he would return to the city of refuge and live there safely until the death of the high priest who was in office at the time of the trial, at which point he could return to his property. If the attacker left the city of refuge before the death of the high priest, however, the avenger would have the right to kill him (Numbers 35:24-28).

The establishment of those privileged sanctuaries among the cities of the Levites is probably traceable to the idea that the Levites would be the most suitable and impartial judges, that their presence and counsels might calm or restrain the stormy passions of the blood avenger. By their consecration as priests, the Levites were mediators between the Israelites and God. As such, they would have been gifted to calmly mediate between the attacker and the victim’s family, ensuring that no further bloodshed would occur.

The cities of refuge are types of Christ, in whom sinners find a refuge from the destroyer of our souls. Just as the guilty person sought refuge in the cities set up for that purpose, in the same way we flee to Christ for refuge from sin (Hebrews 6:18). We run to Christ to escape the danger we are in from the curse and condemnation of the law, from of the wrath of God, and from an eternity in hell. Only Christ provides refuge from these things, and it is to Him alone that we must run. Just as the cities were open to all who fled to them for safety, it is Christ who provides safety to all who come to Him for refuge from sin and its punishment.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[SerfOfJMJ]

I converted to Mormonism (after a Pentecostal upbringing) approximately 5 years ago. Met my wife shortly thereafter and was sealed in the Temple . . . Now, due to lots of information that I’ve researched and found disheartening, it shattered my faith in the LDS Gospel.

Now, I’m running home to Rome.

 

[Jerusha]

Now, I’m running home to Rome.

Good city of refuge. Is your wife hand-in-hand with you?

 

[SerfOfJMJ]

Good city of refuge. Is your wife hand-in-hand with you?

Sadly, no. She was raised LDS and has no desires to convert. But I am daily praying the Rosary for the unity of my family and my conversion.

 

[Jerusha]

And my prayers for you and your family in this transition.

 

[SerfOfJMJ]

And my prayers for you and your family in this transition.

Thanks. Prayers are most welcome.

I posted about it in the Family Life subforum. Really could use some interfaith advice. Posted there so I didn’t derail the thread.

 

[iepuras]

Thanks. Prayers are most welcome.

I posted about it in the Family Life subforum. Really could use some interfaith advice. Posted there so I didn’t derail the thread.

Welcome!

You and your wife will be in my prayers. I understand the family difficulties this can create as I was born and raised LDS and was baptized Catholic this past Easter. Fortunately, my husband was on the same page, but things have been very difficult with my family of origin.

 

[SerfOfJMJ]

Welcome!

You and your wife will be in my prayers. I understand the family difficulties this can create as I was born and raised LDS and was baptized Catholic this past Easter. Fortunately, my husband was on the same page, but things have been very difficult with my family of origin.

Be thankful for that. Would I love my wife to convert? YES! Will I force her? No.

All I can do is pray that I’m setting an example for her and that one day she may see the truth as well.

 

[Tarquin]

Do they [Muslims] worship Jesus Christ and savior and redeemer?

Yes, they consider him the Messiah and look towards his second coming and the judgment he will bring.

Do they have the twelve apostles?

Do you mean, do they believe that Jesus’ twelve apostles had a special role like prophets or were saints? At least somewhat: “But when Jesus felt disbelief from them, he said, ‘Who are my supporters for the cause of Allah ?’ The disciples said, ‘We are supporters for Allah . We have believed in Allah and testify that we are Muslims.’” (3:52)
Mormons have a particular view of what an “apostle” is and what an “apostle” is supposed to do, and it is all based loosely on brief passages they use as proof texts. The Islamic view of the role of an apostle is more in harmony with the New Testament use of the term than it is with the Mormon use of the term.
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the **Apostle **and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus - Hebrews 3:1
The Qur’an says, “And [appoint him] (Jesus) an **apostle **to the Children of Israel” (3:49). and Jesus himself says, “O Children of Israel! I am the **apostle **of Allah (sent) to you.” (61:6)

Do they even remotely have a claim to a succession of authority in the priesthood? No? Okay then, enough said.

Wrong answer. Correct answer is Yes, they do have a claim to a succession of authority “even remotely” and in harmony with the Bible and with Joseph Smith’s First Vision. An angel appeared to a man whom God/Allah had determined to be a prophet, for the purpose of restoring His true religion (Islam) and correct errors in the Bible.