In Essentials Unity, In Non-Essentials Liberty, In All Things Charity

[Christian_Unity]

In Essentials Unity, In Non-Essentials Liberty, In All Things Charity - Lutheran theologian Rupertus Meldenius

If you go to a Catholic Forum site, members will have a Catholic slant on things. If you go to a Protestant Forum site, members will have a non-Catholic slant on things. I say live and let live, and unite as Christians within orthodoxy for the bigger cause of Christ.

I’m open to discuss all kinds of things. I personally believe in sola scriptura over apostolic succession. I also believe in a forensic justification (justification by faith alone) in comparison to a Catholic understanding of justification. However, our differences should never divide the body of Christ. Christian unity requires some compromise.

Pope Benedict said that Martin Luther’s doctrine of justification by faith alone is correct if ‘faith is not opposed to charity.’ The Pope said this during a general audience in a speech on St Paul’s teaching on justification. (Vatican, November 2008)

justforcatholics.org/benedict_justification.htm

ligonier.org/learn/articles/essentials-unity-non-essentials-liberty-all-things/

 

[KathleenGee]

You are most correct in being charitable…as the very essence of God is defined more than anything by Divine Love.

I cannot leave the universal church and all who have contributed to our understanding and life of Jesus, though, by turning away from all of them, to instead follow one man who is not Christ, and rejected the living transmission of faith by the Holy Spirit that has come down through the ages, the apostles who did know Jesus.

Then, in my belief, you are following man’s interpretation who had no witness instead of Christ Who provided us witnesses, – the apostles-- who they themselves attested they were chosen before they were born. Founders of Sola Scriptura can make no claim about themselves, nor do they recognize the reform done by the Council of Trent to address past abuses.

The Council of Trent reformed the Church.

One day my former pastor came up to speak to me and we were looking at the renovation of the altar in the church. Reflecting, I told him either I am Catholic or I am nothing.

 

[Christian_Unity]

You are most correct in being charitable…as the very essence of God is defined more than anything by Divine Love.

I cannot leave the universal church and all who have contributed to our understanding and life of Jesus, though, by turning away from all of them, to instead follow one man who is not Christ, and rejected the living transmission of faith by the Holy Spirit that has come down through the ages, the apostles who did know Jesus.

Then, in my belief, you are following man’s interpretation who had no witness instead of Christ Who provided us witnesses, – the apostles-- who they themselves attested they were chosen before they were born. Founders of Sola Scriptura can make no claim about themselves, nor do they recognize the reform done by the Council of Trent to address past abuses.

The Council of Trent reformed the Church.

One day my former pastor came up to speak to me and we were looking at the renovation of the altar in the church. Reflecting, I told him either I am Catholic or I am nothing.

The Council of Trent may be good from the Catholic perspective. I know it was a response to the Protestant Reformation. However, the Council of Trent is terrible for Christian Unity between Catholics and Protestants. Founders of Sola Scriptura are united to Christ just like me and you. In Christ, there is no male or female distinction, no Jew or Gentile distinction, no Catholic or Protestant distinction.

 

[Christian_Unity]

In Essentials Unity, In Non-Essentials Liberty, In All Things Charity - Lutheran theologian Rupertus Meldenius

Pope Benedict said that Martin Luther’s doctrine of justification by faith alone is correct if ‘faith is not opposed to charity.’ The Pope said this during a general audience in a speech on St Paul’s teaching on justification. (Vatican, November 2008)

justforcatholics.org/benedict_justification.htm

Did the Catholic Church change on the issue of justification and the Council of Trent?

monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/counciltrent.html

 

[Stephen168]

The Council of Trent reformed the Church.

Yes, Trent was the true reformation.

 

[Taestron]

I like this quote; at its core, I believe it does a good job at describing how to deal with differences. However, I feel many people use it as a vain cliche in order to justify their own views. After all, orthodoxy does not come into convenient pre-cut shapes of essentials and non-essentials. There is no King in Israel (at least not over the entirety of the Church) when it comes to who gets to decide what is dogma and what is unessential. What about large, fringe-groups like Jehovah Witnesses or Mormons? Do they disagree with main-stream Protestantism in essential doctrine or non-essential? Who is anybody to decide? What about evangelicals versus main-lines? These are just examples of varying Protestant communities and does not even touch the problem of Catholicism versus Protestantism versus Orthodoxy. Many of those who hold to these differences would cite this very quote as a superficial justification of remaining divided, which flies in the face of the spirit of the quote to promote unity.

The real meat of the quote comes in the end, IMO. “In all things charity.” This is more than merely being civil to those who happen to differ with us. The hallmark of Christian charity is self-sacrificial service to others. How much are we willing to sacrifice in order to achieve unity, to view others as better and more knowledgeable than ourselves? Don’t get me wrong; I am not saying we should abandon truth for cheap unity. We cannot control how others react to truth, but we can control how we ourselves react to truth. If we take an honest look at what are called “non-essentials” then we can sacrifice what we believe to be truth in order to fulfill the criterion of charity.

Does this solve everything? No. But it does take away the glibness of this quote. The quote has bite when it is aimed first and foremost at the “non-essentials” in our own views. Only when we first reach out with self-sacrifice, do we have any right to quote “in all things charity.”

 

[Christian_Unity]

Yes, Trent was the true reformation.

When I read the Council of Trent, it does not seem compatible with

Pope Benedict said that Martin Luther’s doctrine of justification by faith alone is correct if ‘faith is not opposed to charity.’ The Pope said this during a general audience in a speech on St Paul’s teaching on justification. (Vatican, November 2008)

 

[Stephen168]

When I read the Council of Trent, it does not seem compatible with

Pope Benedict said that Martin Luther’s doctrine of justification by faith alone is correct if ‘faith is not opposed to charity.’ The Pope said this during a general audience in a speech on St Paul’s teaching on justification. (Vatican, November 2008)

Your confusion doesn’t change the fact that Trent was the true reformation. It is a large document, so I have no idea where your confusion comes from.

 

[pablope]

In Essentials Unity, In Non-Essentials Liberty, In All Things Charity - Lutheran theologian Rupertus Meldenius

If you go to a Catholic Forum site, members will have a Catholic slant on things. If you go to a Protestant Forum site, members will have a non-Catholic slant on things. I say live and let live, and unite as Christians within orthodoxy for the bigger cause of Christ.

I’m open to discuss all kinds of things. I personally believe in sola scriptura over apostolic succession. I also believe in a forensic justification (justification by faith alone) in comparison to a Catholic understanding of justification. However, our differences should never divide the body of Christ. Christian unity requires some compromise.

Pope Benedict said that Martin Luther’s doctrine of justification by faith alone is correct if ‘faith is not opposed to charity.’ The Pope said this during a general audience in a speech on St Paul’s teaching on justification. (Vatican, November 2008)

justforcatholics.org/benedict_justification.htm

ligonier.org/learn/articles/essentials-unity-non-essentials-liberty-all-things/

Which essentials? Are all protestants going to agree on all the essentials?

The first christians believed in the Real presence, purgatory, Perpetual Virginity of Mary, oral confession…the seven sacraments, apostolic succession, etc, etc…and all these are still believed in the CC.

So which should be jettisoned in the name of unity? Should an truncated form of Christianity take form take hold…for the sake of unity?

 

[pablope]

You are most correct in being charitable…as the very essence of God is defined more than anything by Divine Love.

The Council of Trent reformed the Church.

.

Yes…and prior to that…there was Catherine of Sienna, St. Dominic, Francis of Assisi…reform of the Church was accomplished through the Church, not outside of it.

1 Samuel 15:22-23
22 But Samuel replied:
“Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the Lord?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is like the sin of divination,
and arrogance like the evil of idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the Lord,
he has rejected you as king.”

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0097.html

Why Only Catholicism Can Make Protestantism Work: Louis Bouyer on the Reformation
MARK BRUMLEY
Louis Bouyer contends that the only way to safeguard the positive principles of the Reformation is through the Catholic Church. For only in the Catholic Church are the positive principles the Reformation affirmed found without the negative elements the Reformers mistakenly affixed to them.

Interpreting the Reformation is complicated business. But like many complicated things, it can be simplified sufficiently well that even non-experts can get the gist of it. Here’s what seems a fairly accurate but simplified summary of the issue: The break between Catholics and Protestants was either a tragic necessity (to use Jaroslav Pelikan’s expression) or it was tragic because unnecessary

Yet we can go further than decrying the Reformation as unnecessary. In his ground-breaking work, The Spirit and Forms of Protestantism, Louis Bouyer argued that the Catholic Church herself is necessary for the full flowering of the Reformation principles. In other words, you need Catholicism to make Protestantism work — for Protestantism’s principles fully to develop. Thus, the Reformation was not only unnecessary; it was impossible. What the Reformers sought, argues Bouyer, could not be achieved without the Catholic Church.

From Bouyer’s conclusion we can infer at least two things. First, Protestantism can’t be all wrong, otherwise how could the Catholic Church bring about the “full flowering of the principles of the Reformation”? Second, left to itself, Protestantism will go astray and be untrue to some of its central principles. It’s these two points, as Bouyer articulates them, I would like to consider here. One thing should be said up-front: although a convert from French Protestantism, Bouyer is no anti-Protestant polemicist. His Spirit and Forms of Protestantism was written a half-century ago, a decade before Vatican II’s decree on ecumenism, Unitatis Redintegratio, yet it avoids the bitter anti-Protestantism that sometimes afflicted pre-conciliar Catholic works on Protestantism. That’s one reason the book remains useful, even after decades of post-conciliar ecumenism.

 

[pprimeau1976]

Hi there! I appreciated your post because you we’re respectful and just shared what you believed. I just wanted to clear up some of what you believe though. Please feel free to correct me if I have a misunderstanding.

I personally believe in sola scriptura over apostolic succession.

Is sola scriptura and apostolic succession two beliefs that are really at odds with each other? It’s my understanding that sola scriptura refers to scripture being the source of Christain belief. Whereas apostolic succession is the means by which a bishop receives his authority. Are you referring to sola scriptura as an authority?

I also believe in a forensic justification (justification by faith alone) in comparison to a Catholic understanding of justification. However, our differences should never divide the body of Christ. Christian unity requires some compromise.

Where I differ with you is the word “alone”. Adding “alone” makes a world of difference. The Catholic view that we are saved by grace alone, is more accurate because it is grace that compels us to believe and propels us to do good works.

 

[Christian_Unity]

Which essentials? Are all protestants going to agree on all the essentials?

The first christians believed in the Real presence, purgatory, Perpetual Virginity of Mary, oral confession…the seven sacraments, apostolic succession, etc, etc…and all these are still believed in the CC.

So which should be jettisoned in the name of unity? Should an truncated form of Christianity take form take hold…for the sake of unity?

How many of you are familar with the documents of “Evangelicals and Catholics Together 1, and Evangelicals and Catholics Together 2” which occured in 1994 and 1996? What are your opinions about this work by Catholic and Evangelical leaders?

 

[Christian_Unity]

Hi there! I appreciated your post because you we’re respectful and just shared what you believed. I just wanted to clear up some of what you believe though. Please feel free to correct me if I have a misunderstanding.

Is sola scriptura and apostolic succession two beliefs that are really at odds with each other? It’s my understanding that sola scriptura refers to scripture being the source of Christain belief. Whereas apostolic succession is the means by which a bishop receives his authority. Are you referring to sola scriptura as an authority?

Where I differ with you is the word “alone”. Adding “alone” makes a world of difference. The Catholic view that we are saved by grace alone, is more accurate because it is grace that compels us to believe and propels us to do good works.

Of course the world “alone” divides us theologically, but it shouldn’t divide us. Please consider the Joint Declaration on Justification by Faith by Lutherans and Catholics as well as this statement:

Pope Benedict said that Martin Luther’s doctrine of justification by faith alone is correct if ‘faith is not opposed to charity.’ The Pope said this during a general audience in a speech on St Paul’s teaching on justification. (Vatican, November 2008)

justforcatholics.org/bene…tification.htm

 

[pablope]

How many of you are familar with the documents of “Evangelicals and Catholics Together 1, and Evangelicals and Catholics Together 2” which occured in 1994 and 1996? What are your opinions about this work by Catholic and Evangelical leaders?

No…do you have a link?

Does this have the blessings of Rome? Or is this just confined to the US and has the imprimatur of the US CCB?

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Of course the world “alone” divides us theologically, but it shouldn’t divide us. Please consider the Joint Declaration on Justification by Faith by Lutherans and Catholics as well as this statement:

Pope Benedict said that Martin Luther’s doctrine of justification by faith alone is correct if ‘faith is not opposed to charity.’ The Pope said this during a general audience in a speech on St Paul’s teaching on justification. (Vatican, November 2008)

justforcatholics.org/bene…tification.htm

You brought this exact thing up about a month ago, and were corrected then as well. The Pope stated that justification was partially correct, but did not remove the necessity of works. It’s under the second heading of the document you posted last time, I believe it was the third or fourth paragraph. We will be charitable towards our fellow Christian brothers and sisters, but we will not abandon the Truth to curry favor with those who’s faith is based on human interpretation rather than divine guidance.

 

[pprimeau1976]

Of course the world “alone” divides us theologically, but it shouldn’t divide us. Please consider the Joint Declaration on Justification by Faith by Lutherans and Catholics as well as this statement:

Pope Benedict said that Martin Luther’s doctrine of justification by faith alone is correct if ‘faith is not opposed to charity.’ The Pope said this during a general audience in a speech on St Paul’s teaching on justification. (Vatican, November 2008)

justforcatholics.org/bene…tification.htm

Naturally, baptism unites both you and me to the mystical Body of Christ. However, believing that justification is by faith alone and also believing that the source of faith is scripture (and one’s own interpretation of it) is a recipe for division. It would be easy to say we’re justified by faith if we all agreed as to what the faith is.

 

[Christian_Unity]

You brought this exact thing up about a month ago, and were corrected then as well. The Pope stated that justification was partially correct, but did not remove the necessity of works. It’s under the second heading of the document you posted last time, I believe it was the third or fourth paragraph. We will be charitable towards our fellow Christian brothers and sisters, but we will not abandon the Truth to curry favor with those who’s faith is based on human interpretation rather than divine guidance.

I don’t think Protestants believe good works are unnecessary. I think James chapter 2 is quite clear. What do you think about the Evangelical and Catholics Together Documents? You do understand that Protetstants would also say that there understanding is from divine guidance too, through the illumination of the Holy Spirit for correct undestanding of the Scriptures.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I don’t think Protestants believe good works are unnecessary. I think James chapter 2 is quite clear. What do you think about the Evangelical and Catholics Together Documents? You do understand that Protetstants would also say that there understanding is from divine guidance too, through the illumination of the Holy Spirit for correct undestanding of the Scriptures.

The fact that there are so many different personal interpretations of the Bible in Protestantism negates this assumption. If the Holy Spirit were guiding protestants to a proper understanding of the Scriptures all of the understandings would be the same, since there is only one absolute Truth. Since the conclusions are not the same, we can reasonably concluded that the Holy Spirit is not guiding them, and that something more than a personal interpretation is necessary to understand the truth of the Scriptures. This is one of the reasons for the Church’s existence.

As to reading those documents, no I did not because you’re link is to a 404 Page Not Found. Re-link and I will find time to read them and get back to you.

 

[Christian_Unity]

The fact that there are so many different personal interpretations of the Bible in Protestantism negates this assumption. If the Holy Spirit were guiding protestants to a proper understanding of the Scriptures all of the understandings would be the same, since there is only one absolute Truth. Since the conclusions are not the same, we can reasonably concluded that the Holy Spirit is not guiding them, and that something more than a personal interpretation is necessary to understand the truth of the Scriptures. This is one of the reasons for the Church’s existence.

As to reading those documents, no I did not because you’re link is to a 404 Page Not Found. Re-link and I will find time to read them and get back to you.

I did not have a chance to link anything about the “Evangelicals and Catholics Together” documents. Here’s a link on it:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicals_and_Catholics_Together

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I did not have a chance to link anything about the “Evangelicals and Catholics Together” documents. Here’s a link on it:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicals_and_Catholics_Together

No, that is a link to a page about the document, not the document itself… and even that link says absolutely nothing about justification.

We are called to share common witness with fellow Christians in the name of Christ; but that common witness is not an invitation to abandon Catholic teaching in order to play nice.

I will stand with Baptists outside of a Planned Parenthood to pray for the souls being lost there, but I will not say that the Baptists’s beliefs represent the Truth.

Also, you completely ignored the other point I made, about how Protestants -CAN’T- be being guided by the Holy spirit to their individual interpretations. Are you going to say anything about it, or take your usual approach of ignoring any well made point against your arguemnt? I’d bet strong odds I know your answer.