In favor of the agreement

[DPMartin]

Everything is in favor of the agreement of the power that be, Ethically and politically. Must “Church” be with God? Are there “Churches” without God? Then is “Church” required for the Presence of God to be in the world?

Then why is the world a place that insists that it is a place that should be without God’s Presence in it? Is it because God is not of the world? And should be some where else? Does man have the right to choose where God’s Presence should be?

Surly God has the right, and deserves, to be received where ever He chooses to be Present.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

uuuuuuhhhhhhh what?

Are you saying that we should not have the Eucharist? Your point eludes me… probably due to my tired state at the moment.

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[DPMartin]

Are you saying that we should not have the Eucharist?

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FSC

thanks for the reply

I didn’t say that at all.

But; Jesus Christ said,

Jn:4:24: God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

So what presence should one expect? When it comes to the Eucharist? Where you not baptized in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit, by water and Holy Spirit? Shouldn’t the Presence of God (Holy Spirit) be with you/in you before receiving the Eucharist?

Mt:3:11: I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Isn’t it true that one must be baptized in Holy Spirit even to be “Catholic”?

 

[Mr_Sun]

I think I get what you are talking about.

How government is deciding where people can practice their religious rituals and traditions? Taking God out of state?

There is nothing I hate more than that.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

FSC

thanks for the reply

I didn’t say that at all.

But; Jesus Christ said,

Jn:4:24: God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

So what presence should one expect? When it comes to the Eucharist? Where you not baptized in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit, by water and Holy Spirit? Shouldn’t the Presence of God (Holy Spirit) be with you/in you before receiving the Eucharist?

Mt:3:11: I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Isn’t it true that one must be baptized in Holy Spirit even to be “Catholic”?

Absolutely. Every Catholic has been baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. The Catechism lists it thus:

1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word."5

I am still confused about the point you are driving toward.

You seem to be saying that we already have the Holy Spirit within us and therefore dont need the Eucharist… Perhaps I am mis-reading your posts, butwhat you said first:

Must “Church” be with God? Are there “Churches” without God? Then is “Church” required for the Presence of God to be in the world?

Then why is the world a place that insists that it is a place that should be without God’s Presence in it? Is it because God is not of the world? And should be some where else? Does man have the right to choose where God’s Presence should be?

Surly God has the right, and deserves, to be received where ever He chooses to be Present.

Seems to lead to that conclusion… “Does man have a right to choose where God’s Presence should be?” That would seem to say that we are deciding when and where Christ will be made present, but did not Christ institute the Eucharist? Did He not tell us to do this in remembrance of Him? Did He not tell us that His flesh was true food and His blood was true drink? And at the last supper did he not institute the Eucharist? Why would the apostle have told us not to eat or drink the Body and Blood unworthily, lest we eat or drink condemnation upon ourselves? Would we eat or drink condemnation upon ourselves for eating or drinking mere bread and wine?

The direction of this thread is somewhat unnerving… But again, I may just be looking too much into these posts…

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[DPMartin]

I think I get what you are talking about.

How government is deciding where people can practice their religious rituals and traditions? Taking God out of state?

There is nothing I hate more than that.

Mr Sun

thanks for the reply

On one hand your example is on point, but on the other hand, it is we who Love Him that should be concern about our Presence with Him in His Presence with us. We don’t leave Jesus back at the church, it is that we walk with Him daily.

Searching out darkness brings no life. But holding on to the Light gives Life not only to the one who holds to the Light, but also to those who see the Light with and in the holder. The Crown of the High Priest we serve, that we now know is Jesus Christ, states:

Ex:28:36: And thou shalt make a plate of pure gold, and grave upon it, like the engravings of a signet, HOLINESS TO THE LORD.

Therefore His Holiness with us. Not our’s, His. Hence out of darkness into the Light.

In a sense the Light smacks down darkness. But that is the Presence of the Lord with us, not us. For it should be in His Grace and Peace we should walk. No matter where we are or what we are doing.

Prov:3
5: Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6: In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7: Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
8: It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.

Not what other’s are doing, or the world around us. For our Faith (Trust) is in Jesus in that He is with us.

It seems my Friend in Christ, there are those who would rather die then be in the Presence of God. There are those who refuse the Presence of God (for what ever reason) . And there are those who worship the Presence of God. Hence Love, desire, and honor the Presence of God with them. You can’t make the world Love the Presence of God. But it is those who seek the Presence of God, might see His Light with us, in all that we do in the world.

Yes we all fall short, but it is His Presence with us that never falls short of His Presence. God can not fail, to be God.

 

[DPMartin]

The direction of this thread is somewhat unnerving… But again, I may just be looking too much into these posts…

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FSC

thanks for the reply

Honestly this thread is not intended to discuss the Eucharist. It’s more toward the misgivings and perceptions amongst not only us, but the world in where the Presence of God is. And how that might change. Sorry if it seemed otherwise.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

FSC

thanks for the reply

Honestly this thread is not intended to discuss the Eucharist. It’s more toward the misgivings and perceptions amongst not only us, but the world in where the Presence of God is. And how that might change. Sorry if it seemed otherwise.

See, this is why I ask… because I live and work around lots of people that attack the Church, I see bogey men around every corner

Thanks for the clarification,

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[DPMartin]

See, this is why I ask… because I live and work around lots of people that attack the Church, I see bogey men around every corner

Thanks for the clarification,

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FSC
thanks for the reply

If you answer for your Faith in Jesus Christ then you are at Peace, for the Truth stands, and Jesus is no sinner. But if you answer for your faith in the church, then you answer for that which the church dose and says, and that will always frustrate you.

The Israelites are a chosen people and they gloried in being sons of Abraham of which the Lord answered through John the Baptist Mt:3:9: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

And when Israel was of the same attitude in Jeremiah’s day: Jer:9:24: But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.

Certainly there should be no shame in being Catholic, but is being Catholic glorying in the Church? Or is being Catholic one that understands and knows the LORD Jesus Christ which exercises loving kindness, judgment, and righteousness in the earth? Don’t carry the church on your back, it is not a burden for you. The Cross is what the Lord said should be carried and His burden is light, for it is He who is the interpretation and fulfillment of the Faith in the Power of the Holy Spirit, God’s Presence with you. It is the Lord’s delight to exercise loving kindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth.

The world will never be the way we want it, is the world the way the Lord wants it? All we can do is contribute to the Salvation of the souls that are in the world. By listening to what the Lord says to us, in our Daily Bread. Peace with God, Peace with you.

 

[ipwnuathalo]

Surly God has the right

don’t mess with a surly God.

It seems my Friend in Christ, there are those who would rather die then be in the Presence of God. There are those who refuse the Presence of God (for what ever reason) . And there are those who worship the Presence of God. Hence Love, desire, and honor the Presence of God with them. You can’t make the world Love the Presence of God. But it is those who seek the Presence of God, might see His Light with us, in all that we do in the world.

You can make the world love the presence, but then it’s not love, it’s not-love, and this is not the presence. For the presence is not not-love, but love, and love creates the presence. to seek the presence is to love the presence, which is not to not-love the world in the presence. And in the love of the presence we find the world, which the presence is in.

Then why is the world a place that insists that it is a place that should be without God’s Presence in it? Is it because God is not of the world? And should be some where else? Does man have the right to choose where God’s Presence should be?

Does God have a right to choose where man’s presence should be? If not, does man have a right to be a presence in the world of God’s presence? If man is not of the world, is the world of man in the presence of God in the world? And should be somehwere else? Or not? Aha! It is. And it is not. For herein lies the contradiction of the presence which is not love, but is made within the presence of love in the world of man created by the presence of God.

 

[TheQuestioner]

Hmm only read the first few posts (tired) but,

1. There is no place in existence where God is not, that is a theological fact that every theistic religion recognizes, or must recognize. In fact, existence depends on this fact, as the power of God does not only create things but holds them into existence. So for institutions to want to drive God out, this is not a real “driving away” of God, it is merely a rejection of God and all He has to offer to them.
2. On the Eucharist, if you are questioning its relevance then you need to read more on it. I would suggest the Catechism. While each of us has the Spirit in us at baptism, the Eucharist is the greatest and most beneficial way for us to be “formed into the Image of Christ”. Every time we receive the Eucharist we can, if we accept grace, become more and more likened unto Christ. The Eucharist is Christ’s physical presence (which is nowhere else). What happens when you eat food? That food becomes a part of your body. In the same way since the Eucharist is spiritual food when you eat it Christ becomes embedded into your spirit. Though Christ’s physical presence leaves your body, Christ’s spiritual presence forms your soul more into his image. Of course, I myself need to actually read more on what the Catechism says, this is all tidbits i hear here and there so I may be wrong on some points, but I know i have at least the gist. but I think your problem is you are confusing the indwelling of the Spirit at baptism with the transformation of the soul at Communion.

 

[StrawberryJam]

What agreement would this be? Who were the parties that agreed to this agreement?

 

[TheQuestioner]

**1324 **The Eucharist is “the source and summit of the Christian life.” “The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For in the blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ himself, our Pasch.” CCC

Seems to me that without the Eucharist, even baptism would be not be a complete Christian experience. Baptism is complete in the Eucharist.

[1391](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1391.htm’) Holy Communion augments our union with Christ. The principal fruit of receiving the Eucharist in Holy Communion is an intimate union with Christ Jesus. Indeed, the Lord said: "He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him."226 Life in Christ has its foundation in the Eucharistic banquet: "As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me."227

[1392](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1392.htm’) What material food produces in our bodily life, Holy Communion wonderfully achieves in our spiritual life. Communion with the flesh of the risen Christ, a flesh "given life and giving life through the Holy Spirit,"229 preserves, increases, and renews the life of grace received at Baptism. This growth in Christian life needs the nourishment of Eucharistic Communion, the bread for our pilgrimage until the moment of death, when it will be given to us as viaticum.

[1393](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1393.htm’) Holy Communion separates us from sin. The body of Christ we receive in Holy Communion is “given up for us,” and the blood we drink “shed for the many for the forgiveness of sins.” For this reason the Eucharist cannot unite us to Christ without at the same time cleansing us from past sins and preserving us from future sins:

[1394](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1394.htm’) As bodily nourishment restores lost strength, so the Eucharist strengthens our charity, which tends to be weakened in daily life; and this living charity wipes away venial sins.231 By giving himself to us Christ revives our love and enables us to break our disordered attachments to creatures and root ourselves in him:

[1395](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1395.htm’) By the same charity that it enkindles in us, the Eucharist preserves us from future mortal sins. The more we share the life of Christ and progress in his friendship, the more difficult it is to break away from him by mortal sin. The Eucharist is not ordered to the forgiveness of mortal sins - that is proper to the sacrament of Reconciliation. The Eucharist is properly the sacrament of those who are in full communion with the Church.

[1396](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1396.htm’) The unity of the Mystical Body: the Eucharist makes the Church. Those who receive the Eucharist are united more closely to Christ. Through it Christ unites them to all the faithful in one body - the Church. Communion renews, strengthens, and deepens this incorporation into the Church, already achieved by Baptism. In Baptism we have been called to form but one body.233 The Eucharist fulfills this call: "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread:"234

Yep, I would say the Eucharist is much more different than baptism.

 

[StrawberryJam]

All the sacraments are different, or the church would not classify them as 7 different ones, would she?

 

[DPMartin]

Sorry for answering replies out of order, I intend to respond to all. thanks

Hmm only read the first few posts (tired) but,

1. There is no place in existence where God is not, that is a theological fact that every theistic religion recognizes, or must recognize. In fact, existence depends on this fact, as the power of God does not only create things but holds them into existence. So for institutions to want to drive God out, this is not a real “driving away” of God, it is merely a rejection of God and all He has to offer to them.

TheQuestioner

thank for the reply

True Christianity is to walk with God, hence to follow Jesus Christ for ever. Does not the Presence of God quiet the out cry for Mercy? And turn it into joy.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, and all was dark, void and without form until the Spirt of God moved upon the waters (Presence of God in His creation), and God said. (His Presence revealed, made known)

Just because God made something does not mean He is present there. Is He on the planet pluto, or is He here on the earth? Why is the presence of life here and not there? There is such a thing as darkness, is God found in darkness, or in the Light? Yet He made one and is Present in the other. Truly God is well aware of all He has made, but that does not mean that His Presence can be known there.

Is God found in lies? Is God found in the Devil? But yet God made Satan. God is the God of Truth. Sanctified in Righteousness, therefore not found in unrighteousness. Holy not found in unholiness. Alive not found in death, but yet death is. God of the living, not the dead.

Your own presence is known by your presence. Not in anything you might have made, unless you dwelled in what you have made.(a house for instance, but the house is not your presence) It is only that you would receive credit or be recognized as the one who made this or did that. But it is not your presence, is it? If existence proved God, there would be no none believers. Therefore the Presence of God Himself (Holy Spirit) Through His Word, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is required, to know God is.

 

[DPMartin]

ipwnuathalo
thanks for the reply

It seems clear what is not meant here

You can make the world love the presence,

If that were so then the world would love the Presence of God, but the world loves itself. Even if it perceives that it is for the sake of itself in that it should love itself.

but then it’s not love, it’s not-love, and this is not the presence. For the presence is not not-love, but love, and love creates the presence. to seek the presence is to love the presence, which is not to not-love the world in the presence. And in the love of the presence we find the world, which the presence is in.

It is love, as in interpreted by man, as man perceives love, but not Love of God for God nor God’s Love. Just because people love, which could be anything for any reasoning or justification. Does not prove God’s Presence in the world nor God’s Love. We don’t need to find the world, we are already born into it.

Does God have a right to choose where man’s presence should be?

Yes he does, and His Choice is in His Presence through His Word, Jesus Christ, by the Power of the Holy Spirit.

If not, does man have a right to be a presence in the world of God’s presence? If man is not of the world, is the world of man in the presence of God in the world? And should be somehwere else?

Sorry dude, you got it backwards. Man is of the dust born into the world. And God is not of the world. But yet Present in the world with those who walk with Him.

Or not? Aha! It is. And it is not. For herein lies the contradiction of the presence which is not love, but is made within the presence of love in the world of man created by the presence of God.

I’m sorry but it seems that the contradiction lies with in you. And I do mean lies.

 

[DPMartin]

What agreement would this be? Who were the parties that agreed to this agreement?

StrawberryJam

thanks for the reply

Why did God make man, and gave man free reign upon the face of the earth? Would God loss anything by doing so? And truthfully, what does God have to gain by doing so? And is there anything that is against God’s Will? Or is it perceived by us that something or some one is against God’s Will?

Consider the agreement between God and mankind, Jesus Christ, He came was rejected (knew that was going to happen), and the agreement was established on the Cross, and proven by the resurrect to be the agreement of God to mankind. Does any one or anything have control over that agreement? If you refuse the agreement then you agree to receive that which is to be received without the agreement but yet that is the agreement.

If one does not agree with the King of His Kingdom? But in this case the King is the agreement. Therefore the only Way to be in His Kingdom.