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David011
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…who’s attacking my in laws? We were at their house yesterday for dinner, and I can assure you there was no violence crime fighting involved.
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dedo
Guest
Excellent!…who’s attacking my in laws? We were at their house yesterday for dinner, and I can assure you there was no violence crime fighting involved.
I am glad you guys are getting along.
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David011
Guest
That was our intention the whole time. Regardless of how crazy they can be sometimes, they’re still my children’s grandparents. They just won’t be looking after the kids until they learn their place.
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EasterJoy
Guest
I think some people have forgotten that all you wanted to know is whether or not the Church supports people who perform baptisms on the children of former Catholics without parental consent, since your in-laws seemed to be under that impression.That was our intention the whole time. Regardless of how crazy they can be sometimes, they’re still my children’s grandparents. They just won’t be looking after the kids until they learn their place.
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oneofmany
Guest
…who’s attacking my in laws? We were at their house yesterday for dinner, and I can assure you there was no violence crime fighting involved.
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David011
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Yeah, some people were taking “forgiveness” a little too far, in my opinion. Thank you for all your help!
Oh and one last question. My in-laws are always constantly nagging at us about Church teachings and mass obligations etc. Since you’re Catholic, I was wondering if there’s any advice you could give me to perhaps put them at ease, or at least back off a little? I mean we’ve already tried just telling them flat out, but perhaps Church teachings or scripture that can turn them more towards the “lets just pray for them” idea rather than what they’ve been doing?
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EasterJoy
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I kind of hate to do that, because a) of course I think it would be great if you came back to the Church and b) I know there is a real limit to the trainability of parents.
You might try something tongue in cheek, like “I love you, too, Bessie, but you’re tossing pearls before swine. Just keep me in your prayers, dear, because you’re handling that end for both of us.” Or you could try, “St. Monica did not get St. Augustine back by *nagging *him back into the Church, Bessie. I promise to keep my heart open to all that is good, but let this go, or you’re going to make my hair fall out. We can’t be putting me in an early grave just yet, right?” Things like that. It probably won’t stop them, but your affection for them is worth preserving, and a sense of humor can help you with that.
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HandyAndy
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David, David, David, LOL
It may not come as too much of a surprise to you, but I’ll bet that the grand parents are asking similar advice from their friends. “We’ve tried praying for them, but it doesn’t seem to be working.” They’re probably getting advice like, “You need to continually tell them…its for their own good you know.” “Think of the children!” “Is there a piece of scripture we can quote?” LOL
When they turn up with buckets of holy water, and start conducting candle light vigils outside your house…I think you would have just cause for concern. LOL
Good luck David…you’re going to need it. I do believe though, that they are coming at this from a position of love…annoying love…but love non the less…and that should perhaps afford them a tiny margin of tolerance.
It may not come as too much of a surprise to you, but I’ll bet that the grand parents are asking similar advice from their friends. “We’ve tried praying for them, but it doesn’t seem to be working.”
They’re probably getting advice like, “You need to continually tell them…its for their own good you know.” “Think of the children!” “Is there a piece of scripture we can quote?” LOL When they turn up with buckets of holy water, and start conducting candle light vigils outside your house…I think you would have just cause for concern. LOL
Good luck David…you’re going to need it. I do believe though, that they are coming at this from a position of love…annoying love…but love non the less…and that should perhaps afford them a tiny margin of tolerance.
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Kliska
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I’ve heard Mother Angelica and others stress the St. Monica approach in regard to St. Augustine; you may be able to use that example with them and it may “click” with them that praying for you, offering intentions for you, etc… is the answers.
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David011
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Thank you very much! I will certainly look into trying these!
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BlueEyedLady
Guest
What kind of tone do you want to take on this one? Personally, I’m the type to smile and say something like “Well, thank you for thinking of us but we’re fine as we are” a few times before putting my foot down and saying “I’m sorry if we weren’t clear before, but we have no interest in attending X with you. This is not open for further discussion or debate. Thank you for the invitation”. That should put an end to it. But if they are particularly tenacious (and rude) people, it might continue. So, if that didn’t work, and I had children (as you do), then my temper might get heated to the point where I said something like: “You need to work out your own salvation through fear and trembling. Remember that verse? It says your own salvation, not my salvation. Thank you.”
When you have family with a strong opposing viewpoint you can’t be afraid to put your foot down for the sake of your own sanity as well as the sake of your relationship with them. Constant nagging from them will only build resentment in you. Boundaries are never fun to set, but they serve a real purpose in allowing people who love each other to get along and spend time together despite their differences.
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David011
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We tried the first two approaches and our kids were baptized behind our backs.
I guess for now we’d like to resolve this as gently (but firmly) as possible before making anything heated. You’d think we’d be past that point already but we tolerate them because they’re family. Although I can’t guarantee how long our tolerance is going to last. But I will try the Augustine stuff, maybe fighting fire with fire will work. And if it doesn’t, then we’ll just have to continue to reinforce more boundaries when it comes to that type of stuff. Thank you for help!
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BlueEyedLady
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Good point. Being “gentle but firm” hasn’t exactly gone well for you.We tried the first two approaches and our kids were baptized behind our backs.
I’m a pretty shy, timid person. I try to be as kind as possible. But at the point you’re at, my temper would be roaring and I wouldn’t be able to hold back anymore.
I feel very bad for you and I hope that my in-laws don’t start behaving like this when I have kids.
Can I ask, were you married in the church? If not, how did they take that? It seems to me that some of these issues should have been hashed out already. At least with us, announcing our plans to marry opened up the door for a lot of difficult conversations that no one wanted to have.
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josh987654321
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Christians giving advice on how not to evangalize?I would share with them the philosophy “You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink.” in order to change their tactics of ‘evangalization’ if what they are currently doing is not working and if they decided to opt out and take the approach ‘nothing we can do but pray’ I would quote good old Dr Phil when he say’s “Yes, pray to God, but for goodness sake, row for the shore.”
I don’t know if you understood the conotations of EasterJoy’s quote, if you use it, your saying “Don’t bother with me because I’m a pig and your only throwing down precious pearls for me to trample all over or I’m nothing but a rabid dog that will only turn and attack you everytime you try to help me.”
If you really want them to stop, I would have an open discussion about the whole thing and work through your issues, I would research both sides, atheism and theism in order to make an informed decision. There are many great books when it comes to these things, I would recommend Anthony Flew’s book “There is a God” How the worlds most notorious atheist changed his mind and I would also recommend C.S. Lewis’ book “Mere Christianity”
Here are some good quotes.
"Some have said that the laws of nature are simply accidental results of the way the universe cooled after the big bang. But, as Rees has pointed out, even such accidents can be regarded as secondary manifestations of deeper laws governing the ensemble of universes. Again, even the evolution of the laws of nature and changes to the constants follow certain laws. 'We’re still left with the question of how these “deeper” laws originated. No matter how far you push back the properties of the universe as somehow “emergent,” their very emergence has to follow certain prior laws.'1 So multiverse or not, we still have to come to terms with the origin of the laws of nature. And the only viable explanation here is the divine Mind.” - Anthony Flew
*“One of the greatest difficulties is to keep before the audience’s mind the question of Truth. They always think you are recommending Christianity not because it is true, but because it is good. And in the discussion they will at every moment try to escape from the issue ‘True-or False’ into stuff about a good society, or morals, or incomes of Bishops, or the Spanish inquisition, or France, or Poland—or anything whatever. You have to keep forcing them back, and again back, to the real point. Only thus you will be able to undermine…their belief that a certain amount of ‘religion’ is desirable but one mustn’t carry it too far. One must keep on pointing out that Christianity is a statement which, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The one thing it cannot be is moderately important.” *- C.S. Lewis
"Supposing there was no intelligence behind the universe, no creative mind. In that case, nobody designed my brain for the purpose of thinking. It is merely that when the atoms inside my skull happen, for physical or chemical reasons, to arrange themselves in a certain way, this gives me, as a by-product, the sensation I call thought. But, if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true? It’s like upsetting a milk jug and hoping that the way it splashes itself will give you a map of London. But if I can’t trust my own thinking, of course I can’t trust the arguments leading to Atheism, and therefore have no reason to be an Atheist, or anything else. Unless I believe in God, I cannot believe in thought: so I can never use thought to disbelieve in God." - C.S. Lewis
This site is really good - apologetics315.com/search/label/C.S.%20Lewis
Thank you for reading
Josh
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HandyAndy
Guest
The problems exist with the grand parents David, because of YOUR problems with the church. Perhaps this is an area you may care to discuss via another thread.
Seeking submissions on how to frustrate the grand parents further is poor form, when it is obvious they love you all very much.
This thread was a good one and very informative, however based on your intent; you are now asking for the wrong advice from a Catholic forum IMO.
I wonder what we would be advising the grand parents if they were on here with their side of the story?
Perhaps this is an area you may care to discuss via another thread.Seeking submissions on how to frustrate the grand parents further is poor form, when it is obvious they love you all very much.
This thread was a good one and very informative, however based on your intent; you are now asking for the wrong advice from a Catholic forum IMO.
I wonder what we would be advising the grand parents if they were on here with their side of the story?
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josh987654321
Guest
That’s interesting. Do you believe we obey God because we fear him?
Gospel of John:
Thank you for reading
Josh
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Kliska
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No, Christians giving advice on how to get someone’s in-laws to back off a bit, because at this point it seems they may be doing more harm than good. Plus, the poster here is obviously well informed about Christianity already, Even the disciples sent out at some point were to move on if someone didn’t want to hear it.
Again, many Catholic speakers on EWTN that I’ve watched talk about St. Monica all the time. It was her prayer that is counted as helping Augustine. Prayer isn’t leaving someone that already knows the gospel wanting, and it doesn’t mean they can’t ever talk religion.
In short, I’m a believer who does indeed believe in Heaven and Hell, so I hope for conversion just as much as the next Christian but beating someone over the head with the Catechism isn’t at the heart of the new evangelization… at least that is what I read and hear. lol
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Rau
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To pray for their children and grandchildren I should think.
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EasterJoy
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The “pearls before swine” line was Our Lord’s, so it is impossible to take it as meaning the person is not wanted or loved by God. It is a metaphor, and it means the person is not ready to listen, hear, or see. Look at the famous story of the Prodigal Son: the father allowed his son to take the father’s wealth and go off to spend it with strangers in a strange land. The father did not go after him, but he did scan the horizon for him always, so that when the young man came back, the father caught sight of him from a distance, and could come out to meet him.
I would share with them the philosophy “You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink.” in order to change their tactics of ‘evangalization’ if what they are currently doing is not working and if they decided to opt out and take the approach ‘nothing we can do but pray’ I would quote good old Dr Phil when he say’s “Yes, pray to God, but for goodness sake, row for the shore.”
I don’t know if you understood the conotations of EasterJoy’s quote, if you use it, your saying “Don’t bother with me because I’m a pig and your only throwing down precious pearls for me to trample all over or I’m nothing but a rabid dog that will only turn and attack you everytime you try to help me.”
If you really want them to stop, I would have an open discussion about the whole thing and work through your issues, I would research both sides, atheism and theism in order to make an informed decision. There are many great books when it comes to these things, I would recommend Anthony Flew’s book “There is a God” How the worlds most notorious atheist changed his mind and I would also recommend C.S. Lewis’ book “Mere Christianity” …
**You are never ever going to talk a devout Catholic into letting go of the hope of seeing her child return to the Church and her grandchildren raised in it. **This is as it should be; one of the reasons for the vocation of marriage is to raise children so they will not only inherit the Kingdom of God, but will be blessed to live in the graces offered by the Church for life. Our faith is the great treasure of her life, and it will always chafe her that they do not have something so central and so precious.
I think the OP fully understands this. The question is how to keep the parents from building a wall of resentment in her child and son-in-law before the day comes when they might have come around. There are ways to draw people into the faith, but Our Lord himself was very clear on many occasions that nagging is not it.
St. Paul, too, was content to plant the seed and then let go:
*While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he grew exasperated at the sight of the city full of idols. So he debated in the synagogue with the Jews and with the worshipers, and daily in the public square with whoever happened to be there. Even some of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers engaged him in discussion. Some asked, “What is this scavenger trying to say?” Others said, “He sounds like a promoter of foreign deities,” because he was preaching about ‘Jesus’ and ‘Resurrection.’
They took him and led him to the Areopagus and said, “May we learn what this new teaching is that you speak of? For you bring some strange notions to our ears; we should like to know what these things mean.” Now all the Athenians as well as the foreigners residing there used their time for nothing else but telling or hearing something new.
Then Paul stood up at the Areopagus and said: “You Athenians, I see that in every respect you are very religious. For as I walked around looking carefully at your shrines, I even discovered an altar inscribed, ‘To an Unknown God.’ What therefore you unknowingly worship, I proclaim to you. The God who made the world and all that is in it, the Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in sanctuaries made by human hands, nor is he served by human hands because he needs anything. Rather it is he who gives to everyone life and breath and everything. He made from one the whole human race to dwell on the entire surface of the earth, and he fixed the ordered seasons and the boundaries of their regions, so that people might seek God, even perhaps grope for him and find him, though indeed he is not far from any one of us. For ‘In him we live and move and have our being,’ as even some of your poets have said, ‘For we too are his offspring.’ Since therefore we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the divinity is like an image fashioned from gold, silver, or stone by human art and imagination. God has overlooked the times of ignorance, but now he demands that all people everywhere repent because he has established a day on which he will ‘judge the world with justice’ through a man he has appointed, and he has provided confirmation for all by raising him from the dead.”
**When they heard about resurrection of the dead, some began to scoff, but others said, “We should like to hear you on this some other time.” And so Paul left them. **
But some did join him, and became believers. Among them were Dionysius, a member of the Court of the Areopagus, a woman named Damaris, and others with them*.
Acts 17:16-34
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josh987654321
Guest
I agree, that’s why in this case I would use the philosophy “You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink.”
Thank you for reading
Josh
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