in love with a muslim

[Montalban]

Indeed but His Almighty Eminence the owner of the site is only interpreting the verse in line with his train of belief.
There are waaay more moderate interpretations of the Sura 5 also taking into account other verses in that Sura and the rest of the Koran-ranging from the “different kinds of friendship” approach to the “depends-on-the-person-is he-going-to make-you-lose-your-faith” approach.

You mean that when the Koran says “Don’t take non-Moslems as close friends” and he then says “Don’t take Moselms as close friends” he’s only putting his spin on it?

And taking into account of the other verses in the Koran that say that the Jews are donkeys, deceivers, etc that’s still putting a spin on it?

I guess some people may have read the ‘nice’ verses and not be aware of ‘abrogation’.

Did you have any specific verses in mind? The term supposition looms large.

 

[inJESUS]

Things are simple. Children will be raised Muslims, unless the guy doesn’t mind raising them as Catholics but then will his family/relatives intervene? most probably. Will he change his mind later? who knows.

Montalban, i guess the verse you quoted is interpreted as “during the war” because the Quran says Muslim men can marry Christians and Jews but the children must be raised Muslims and da’wa (preaching) to the woman who according to them will rot in hell if she’s not Muslim, especially a “Trinitarian Polytheist” = that’s how much muhammad understood and that’s how much they do

 

[Montalban]

Things are simple. Children will be raised Muslims, unless the guy doesn’t mind raising them as Catholics but then will his family/relatives intervene? most probably. Will he change his mind later? who knows.

Montalban, i guess the verse you quoted is interpreted as “during the war” because the Quran says Muslim men can marry Christians and Jews but the children must be raised Muslims and da’wa (preaching) to the woman who according to them will rot in hell if she’s not Muslim, especially a “Trinitarian Polytheist” = that’s how much muhammad understood and that’s how much they do

Her best bet, if she must go ahead is to draw up an extensive contract (though I’m not sure if this is valid between Moslems and non-Moslems)

 

[Montalban]

Indeed but His Almighty Eminence the owner of the site is only interpreting the verse in line with his train of belief.
There are waaay more moderate interpretations of the Sura 5 also taking into account other verses in that Sura and the rest of the Koran-ranging from the “different kinds of friendship” approach to the “depends-on-the-person-is he-going-to make-you-lose-your-faith” approach.

Have you come up with alternative interpretations?

 

[TheGarg]

I’m truly shocked to come back and see more of the same.

Here’s a relationship about which we have no details, yet most posters here are predicting doom and gloom only because one person in the relationship is Muslim.

epl92,

Do not listen to what people are telling you. You can keep your religion (Yasser Arafat’s wife, for example, is Christian), and the only thing you should wonder about is how good his character is and if you two are compatible.

You should try to understand why your parents feel the way they do. If you think your parents would not like this person for bad reasons like racism (which is a big problem in your home country), then you should think hard about whether or not they will really have your best interests at heart in this situation. If there are other good reasons that they don’t think this man is right for you, then you should tell them so that you’ll be able to hear what they have to say.

If he’s a devout Muslim, he won’t drink or gamble your children’s money away, he’ll be serious about commitment and his duties to his family, and he’ll be serious about teaching religious values to his children.

all that is irrelevant, and your compromising is dangerous. He DOES NOT BELIEVE THAT CHRIST IS LORD. her love should be for Jesus first, and Christ says do NOT be unequally yolked, and that is specific to religion.

I am trying to be compassionate, but eventually oneday she will have to make this decision, Christ, or no Christ.

peace of the Lord be with you all

 

[exoflare]

I wonder some members here who have answered this sister indeed intend to confuse her instead of helping her how to convince her parents to accept that man. maybe Allah love this sister thats why he send this man and maybe he will be the reason to guide this lady to the true path.

And just why should she accept that man? You have yet to give a reason for that, other than your own blind assumption that Islam is the truth.

What if this were a Muslim female wanting to marry a Christian male? Mark my words you will not answer this because you are a hypocrite who doesn’t want people to know your gross double-standards.

If you don’t want to speak up, the teachings of Islam will remain for everyone to see regardless: a Muslim female CANNOT marry a non-muslim man!

 

[Prague]

I think EPL is MIA…Anyone heard from her lately?

 

[Montalban]

I think EPL is MIA…Anyone heard from her lately?

Maybe it’s the rapture. Oops, that’s another thread

 

[inJESUS]

Yea let’s wait for EPL’s replies .

 

[Montalban]

If he’s a devout Muslim, he won’t drink or gamble your children’s money away, he’ll be serious about commitment and his duties to his family, and he’ll be serious about teaching religious values to his children.

He’ll be able to beat her, and to take three other women (if he can afford it) as his wives. Their ages might be as young as nine years old (depending upon whether he obeys wicked western laws that make him wait till she’s a haggard & old 18)

 

[pro_universal]

He’ll be able to beat her, and to take three other women (if he can afford it) as his wives. Their ages might be as young as nine years old (depending upon whether he obeys wicked western laws that make him wait till she’s a haggard & old 18)

I see here more of the odd tendency to believe you know what Islam requires better than the Muslims themselves do.

As for beating…not if he wants to consider himself a Muslim he can’t beat her. The consensus I’ve seen is that the Koran permits light spanking of family members who are misbehaving; but it demands following the law. The laws of Australia don’t permit it, so if he wants to be a Muslim, he’s going to follow Australia’s law on that subject.

For other wives…there is absolutely no more chance of this happening than there is of a western husband finding a mistress, and at least in the Islamic context, she has the right to refuse the new marriage. How many cheating westerners give their spouses a choice as to whether or not they consent to the relationship?

Age…again, following the law is required. So the people he could marry as a Muslim in Australia will be the same age as for anyone else.

The odd part of your post, Montalban, is that you seem to be making issues out of things that are traditionally black marks on the Australian national character. You have a serious problem with domestic violence, rape, child abuse (especially of aboriginals!), and infidelity in Australia, all unrelated to immigration.

Maybe you should spend your time helping to make your own co-religionists and countrymen behave morally, instead of fixating on Muslims.

 

[Michelle2006]

ep192

You will not like my advice on this but it is to run away from this man as fast as you can. I speak from 15 years of horrible experience.

I was once very much in love with a muslim man, he also told me he respected my religious beliefs etc, etc. He appeared very western and open minded, he drank alcohol and ate pork once in a while to prove how “moderate” a muslim he was. It wasn’t true and slowly and steadily the manipulations began. Little things comparing our faithes, mine always inferior in his mind, then his trying to undermine my schooling, job etc., then the threats of violence if I didn’t “behave” (code for convert or at least act inferior to his muslim relatives, what they term a “dhimmi”), then the mental and physical violence started, then the threats of death if I dishonored him (he did have a closet full of unregistered guns, and yes, I believed he might murder me). He was a local business man and gave to political candidates and had the police in his pocket, so please, don’t anyone tell me I should have gone to the police. I won’t go into more details, if I did this post would go on for pages. It lasted 15 years. I was only able to get away because I had never married him and, because of my Catholic beliefs had never lived with him. I had to change my job, address and telephone number and I literally ran away and hid from him. I know if I had ever married him I would never have gotten away, not ever.

I sink down on my knees and thank my Lord Jesus I never married him. You do not have to believe me. Do your own research in to islam (a word which means a specific type of forced submission, NOT peace as is commonly thought), read Robert Spencer,or Bridgitte Gabriel or Serge Trifkovic.

Your parents are right. In my estimation, the best thing you could do is run from this man and find a good Catholic man. I prayed to God for such a man myself and He sent me one. I hope and pray He will do the same for you.

Your sister in Christ Jesus, our Lord and Savior

Michelle

 

[Montalban]

I see here more of the odd tendency to believe you know what Islam requires better than the Muslims themselves do.

You just go to prove my statement…

As for beating…not if he wants to consider himself a Muslim he can’t beat her. The consensus I’ve seen is that the Koran permits light spanking of family members who are misbehaving; but it demands following the law. The laws of Australia don’t permit it, so if he wants to be a Muslim, he’s going to follow Australia’s law on that subject.

Which is besides the point. In an Islamic country, you’d be able to beat her. And she’s admonished if she refuses sex.

For other wives…there is absolutely no more chance of this happening than there is of a western husband finding a mistress, and at least in the Islamic context, she has the right to refuse the new marriage.

Any information to back this up? How can she refuse, in general?

How many cheating westerners give their spouses a choice as to whether or not they consent to the relationship?

And they cheat in Islamic countries.

Age…again, following the law is required. So the people he could marry as a Muslim in Australia will be the same age as for anyone else.

Thanks again for trying to change the goal-posts. I’m not talking about here in Australia but under Islam, you’re argument in fact goes against you for if not for Australian law, these women would be beating under Islamic law.

The odd part of your post, Montalban, is that you seem to be making issues out of things that are traditionally black marks on the Australian national character. You have a serious problem with domestic violence, rape, child abuse (especially of aboriginals!), and infidelity in Australia, all unrelated to immigration.

And all unrelated to anything to do with this discussion

Maybe you should spend your time helping to make your own co-religionists and countrymen behave morally, instead of fixating on

So Moslems are not my country-men?

 

[pro_universal]

Any information to back this up? How can she refuse, in general?

In general, she can refuse, period. If the man insists on having this other wife, she can divorce him and go elsewhere.

Here you go: islamicity.com/mosque/w_islam/poly.htm

It has to be added that polygamy in Islam is a matter of mutual consent. No one can force a woman to marry a married man. Besides, the wife has the right to stipulate that her husband must not marry any other woman as a second wife.

And they cheat in Islamic countries.

But they also take cheating seriously and punish it. We do not do this in secular countries. If you proposed that there be a punishment for cheating, I think you would be laughed out of parliament.

Thanks again for trying to change the goal-posts. I’m not talking about here in Australia but under Islam, you’re argument in fact goes against you for if not for Australian law, these women would be beating under Islamic law.

The fact of the matter is, beating is prohibited by the religion. Period. The maximum permissible force is light spanking, ie, as if correcting a child. But following the law of the land is also required…by the religion. So this isn’t an issue for you or for epl92.

here’s a ruling on hitting:qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=11&ID=4863&CATE=121

Not only is wife beating not endorsed, it is strictly prohibited. Beating someone, whether a husband, wife, or child is unlawful. Beating someone is a form of abuse and Islam does not allow abuse.

And all unrelated to anything to do with this discussion

It is completely related. Your are pretending as if these problems of spousal abuse and infidelity are somehow Islamic problems; the fact of the matter is that they are not.

If you were a real Christian, you’d spend your time fixated on all your co-religionists and countrymen who abuse children, their wives, and who are unfaithful instead of spending all your time inventing theories as to how other religions sanction in theory the very same things that your society actually practices.

So Moslems are not my country-men?

Some are, but most Muslims are not your countrymen. Also, most of your countrymen are not Muslims.

 

[Montalban]

In general, she can refuse, period. If the man insists on having this other wife, she can divorce him and go elsewhere.

Here you go: [islamicity.com/mosque/w_islam/poly.htm

](Women in Islam - Part 14- Polygamy?)

So, you give no evidence that she can ‘refuse’. (Which is what I asked about). Secondly, her ability to divorce is not the same, as she could loose custody of her kids, under Islamic law.

But they also take cheating seriously and punish it. We do not do this in secular countries. If you proposed that there be a punishment for cheating, I think you would be laughed out of parliament.

Why should there be a punishment for cheating? Perhaps that’s why it would be laughed out of parliament.

The fact of the matter is, beating is prohibited by the religion. Period. The maximum permissible force is light spanking, ie, as if correcting a child. But following the law of the land is also required…by the religion. So this isn’t an issue for you or for epl92.

here’s a ruling on hitting:qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=11&ID=4863&CATE=121

Your site, like youself, offers simply a ‘just-so’ that it’s not allowed, then gives evidence that it is, but tries first to excuse it by saying it’s allowed by al-lah, in certain circumstances. It says he’s allowed to use his hand.

“Finally, he is allowed to physically discipline her, but only within the above-mentioned limits.”

The limits are using his hand.

It is completely related. Your are pretending as if these problems of spousal abuse and infidelity are somehow Islamic problems; the fact of the matter is that they are not.

No. I’m not arguing this at all. I’m arguing that Moslem men are permitted to beat their wives. I make no claim about anyone else. It falls outside the scope of what I wrote. You are trying to have several arguments at once, as per normal.
a) that Moslms don’t do this
but if they do
b) other people do it too.

If you were a real Christian, you’d spend your time fixated on all your co-religionists and countrymen who abuse children, their wives, and who are unfaithful instead of spending all your time inventing theories as to how other religions sanction in theory the very same things that your society actually practices.

Frankly you’ve no right to judge me in my own faith.

Some are, but most Muslims are not your countrymen. Also, most of your countrymen are not Muslims.

Sorry, you seem confused. You were restricting your argument to Moslem Australians. You suggested that I should extol ‘my countrymen’ to do somethig, some of my countrymen are Moslem, so you want me to extol them TOO, athough you seem to have forgotten that my countrymen would include this group. You need to concentrate on a particular argument.

 

[pro_universal]

So, you give no evidence that she can ‘refuse’. (Which is what I asked about). Secondly, her ability to divorce is not the same, as she could loose custody of her kids, under Islamic law.

I cited you an entire article about the situation with multiple wives in Islam. I’m confused at your claim that I provided no evidence of this. What exactly would be evidence, if not an article by a Muslim scholar covering exactly this topic?

Why should there be a punishment for cheating? Perhaps that’s why it would be laughed out of parliament.

Considering that it can rip families apart, I’d say it’s not so crazy to at least consider the idea. But that was my point: the idea that ripping a family apart should be a crime is ridiculous in many western countries.

Your site, like youself, offers simply a ‘just-so’ that it’s not allowed, then gives evidence that it is, but tries first to excuse it by saying it’s allowed by al-lah, in certain circumstances. It says he’s allowed to use his hand.

Read the site. It has plenty of reference to the scriptures and legal traditions that justify its opinions. It is also a Muslim website specifically designed for Muslims to get answers…so besides just not wanting to accept the facts when they’re staring you in the face, I’m not sure what’s motivating this claim.

“Finally, he is allowed to physically discipline her, but only within the above-mentioned limits.”

The limits are using his hand.

Again, read the article. There is a large gulf between using your hand and a beating; beating is prohibited.

No. I’m not arguing this at all. I’m arguing that Moslem men are permitted to beat their wives. I make no claim about anyone else. It falls outside the scope of what I wrote. You are trying to have several arguments at once, as per normal.
a) that Moslms don’t do this
but if they do
b) other people do it too.

I just cited to you a Muslim source for fatwas that explains that it is expressly forbidden. The fact that people still do it doesn’t mean the religion sanctions it, just like the fact that domestic violence and child abuse are practiced by some Australians doesn’t mean that Australia sanctions either.

Frankly you’ve no right to judge me in my own faith.

I have just as much a right to judge you in your faith as you have to judge Muslims in their faith. My advice is to remember a Christian teaching: Judge not, or you will be judged yourself.

Sorry, you seem confused. You were restricting your argument to Moslem Australians. You suggested that I should extol ‘my countrymen’ to do somethig, some of my countrymen are Moslem, so you want me to extol them TOO, athough you seem to have forgotten that my countrymen would include this group. You need to concentrate on a particular argument.

Where did I restrict my argument to Muslim australians? Huh?

What I’d like to see is more of you taking notice of the problems that your own society and those close to you have, and doing something to fix them, instead of spending all your time claiming that Islam is bad.

Look at this thread as an example…instead of asking epl how she is treated by this man, you just went on about how Islam is bad (despite the fact that no reputable sources in Islam support your wild claims.) I have to conclude that you don’t really care if epl is being treated well, but are instead only concerned with her boyfriend’s religion.

How much good can you possibly do when that’s your focus?

 

[SedesDomi]

I know this Sunni who’s married to a Shi’a. He calls himself a ‘Sushi’.

 

[inJESUS]

I know this Sunni who’s married to a Shi’a. He calls himself a ‘Sushi’.

 

[Montalban]

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 30:

Narrated Abdullah bin 'Umar:

Allah’s Apostle said, "Evil omen is in the women, the house and the horse.’

zawaj.com/articles/sahihbukhari.html

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 31:

Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

Evil omen was mentioned before the Prophet: The Prophet said, “If there is evil omen in anything, it is in the house, the woman and the horse.”

(Ibid)

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 32:

Narrated Sahl bin Sad:

Allah’s Apostle said, “If at all there is bad omen, it is in the horse, the woman, and the house.”

(Ibid)

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 33:

Narrated Usama bin Zaid:

The Prophet said, “After me I have not left any affliction more harmful to men than women.”

(Ibid)

pro_universal:

I cited you an entire article about the situation with multiple wives in Islam. I’m confused at your claim that I provided no evidence of this. What exactly would be evidence, if not an article by a Muslim scholar covering exactly this topic?

I suppose you mean that your evidence is this “Besides, the wife has the right to stipulate that her husband must not marry any other woman as a second wife.”

I take the point that she can have a pre-nuptial contract specifying this; that she will not have any co-wives for her husband. However, if she’s not taken up that as a pre-nup, then she can not refuse. It’s not an absolute. I guess you didn’t want to state that. She is not an equal partner in the relationship. She can’t ‘veto’ this if she’s not already done a contract.

pro_universal:

Considering that it can rip families apart, I’d say it’s not so crazy to at least consider the idea. But that was my point: the idea that ripping a family apart should be a crime is ridiculous in many western countries.

Divorce rips families apart.
A death of a spouse can do that.
A child running away from home.
Which of these also deserve a punishment?

pro_universal:

Read the site. It has plenty of reference to the scriptures and legal traditions that justify its opinions. It is also a Muslim website specifically designed for Muslims to get answers…so besides just not wanting to accept the facts when they’re staring you in the face, I’m not sure what’s motivating this claim.

The facts say he’s allowed to beat her within certain limits; ie. using his hand. She’s also to be cursed if she doesn’t give him sex when he desires it; something you’ve decided to skip past a second time.

pro_universal:

Again, read the article. There is a large gulf between using your hand and a beating; beating is prohibited.

You can beat her with your hand. You can’t beat her with something other than your hand.

pro_universal:

I just cited to you a Muslim source for fatwas that explains that it is expressly forbidden. The fact that people still do it doesn’t mean the religion sanctions it, just like the fact that domestic violence and child abuse are practiced by some Australians doesn’t mean that Australia sanctions either.

No, you just cited a site that says beating other than use by the hand is expressly forbidden.

Other abuses are allowed upon a woman, such as female genital mutilation. And again Muhammad ‘moderates’ that, by saying don’t ‘cut’ too ‘severely’.

You’re allowed to curb the practice of her faith (if she’s Christian). There’s heaps of things that you can do to hinder her.

You would be allowed to kill your wife if she becomes an apostate.

You have segregated worship

Moslems also think a woman is less intelligent than a male

 

[Montalban]

pro_universal:

Where did I restrict my argument to Muslim Australians? Huh?

You went on about Australia this, Australia that, and then said that I should go back to my own countrymen and stop them abusing people. My countrymen INCLUDE MOSLEMS, so you missed that point.

pro_universal:

What I’d like to see is more of you taking notice of the problems that your own society and those close to you have, and doing something to fix them, instead of spending all your time claiming that Islam is bad.

You do it again!

MY SOCIETY INCLUDES MOSLEMS

And, I note that your ‘scholar’ is but one opinion. Most interpret it as ‘beat’.
“Which interpretation of daraba is more popular? Unfortunately, the one that connotes beating. But we need to consider why that translation is more popular while ones that are more in tune with the flow of the verse and the overall teachings of Islam are not.”
mwlusa.org/publications/others/domesticviolence.htm

Look what happens when a woman goes to Muhammad and claims she was beaten. Is the husband admonished?
Volume 7, Book 72, Number 715:

Narrated 'Ikrima:

Rifa’a divorced his wife whereupon 'AbdurRahman bin Az-Zubair Al-Qurazi married her. 'Aisha said that the lady (came), wearing a green veil (and complained to her (Aisha) of her husband and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating). It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah’s Apostle came, 'Aisha said, “I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!” When 'AbdurRahman heard that his wife had gone to the Prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, “By Allah! I have done no wrong to him but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this,” holding and showing the fringe of her garment, 'Abdur-Rahman said, “By Allah, O Allah’s Apostle! She has told a lie! I am very strong and can satisfy her but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifa’a.” Allah’s Apostle said, to her, “If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifa’a unless Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you.” Then the Prophet saw two boys with 'Abdur-Rahman and asked (him), “Are these your sons?” On that 'AbdurRahman said, “Yes.” The Prophet said, “You claim what you claim (i.e… that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow,”
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/072.sbt.html#007.072.715

Even with the ‘support’ of Muhammad’s favourite wife, Aisha, she was sent packing because she had lied. Therefore under these ‘restricted circumstances’ (as a Moslem apologist might smirk) she was allowed to be beaten, until her skin was so bruised it was green!

Book 11, Number 2141:

Narrated Abdullah ibn AbuDhubab:

Iyas ibn Abdullah ibn AbuDhubab reported the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) as saying: Do not beat Allah’s handmaidens, but when Umar came to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Women have become emboldened towards their husbands, he (the Prophet) gave permission to beat them. Then many women came round the family of the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) complaining against their husbands. So the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: Many women have gone round Muhammad’s family complaining against their husbands. They are not the best among you.
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/011.sat.html#011.2141

Here’s another ‘restricted circumstance’ - when women become ‘emboldened’, or, in other words, speak up against their husbands.

Check out this article
memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area%20=sr&ID=SR2704