In Numbers 14:18 God punishes the children of futures generations for the sins of their fathers

[TimothyH]

So, by this reasoning, if the Bible says that God has a particular nature or characteristic, we cannot know if this is a factual statement that reveals something about God, or the author attributing to God something about the nature of the world or the human condition.

How then can we be sure that the Bible tells us anything about God? It reminds me of a quotation attributed to G. K. Chesterton: “A good novel tells us the truth about its hero; but a bad novel tells us the truth about its author.” It seems that the Bible may tell us more about the authors than about God.

The author is God.

When we learn something about the author we learn something about God.

God used human authors but the source of all scripture is God himself.

-Tim-

 

[jcrichton]

So, by this reasoning, if the Bible says that God has a particular nature or characteristic, we cannot know if this is a factual statement that reveals something about God, or the author attributing to God something about the nature of the world or the human condition.

How then can we be sure that the Bible tells us anything about God? It reminds me of a quotation attributed to G. K. Chesterton: “A good novel tells us the truth about its hero; but a bad novel tells us the truth about its author.” It seems that the Bible may tell us more about the authors than about God.

Hi!
The difference between a novel and Scriptures is that while the writer of the first could still be inspired by God (if you follow G. K. Chesterton you would notice this in his writings) only Scriptures demonstrate that the Holy Spirit has inspired the Writers because of the content and the fulfillment, in spite of man’s lack of full comprehension of the Word of God.

When Yahweh God makes his pact with Abram, He changes his name to Abraham (Genesis 17:4-6) and makes the comparison of stars in the heavens and the sand on the shore… at the time of the Promise (and hundreds of years after) it could well have been concluded that Scriptures erred since the naked eye would discover but a few stars (perhaps as few as a couple of hundreds) in the heavens while the grains of sand would be innumerable (Genesis 22:15-17). It is only till the technology advances enough that we begin to understand the vastness of space–further, not until the Hubble Telescope does the comparison of sand and stars is fully demonstrated… and all of this when Abraham and Sarah were of advance age, Sarah infertile, and having had no offspring.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Nixbits]

TimothyH:

The author is God. When we learn something about the author we learn something about God. God used human authors but the source of all scripture is God himself.

Timothy, I don’t know what you’re trying to say. Did God Himself choose the actual words, or did God inspire the human authors who then conveyed God’s message in their own words?

 

[Nixbits]

jcrichton:

only Scriptures demonstrate that the Holy Spirit has inspired the Writers because of the content and the fulfillment, in spite of man’s lack of full comprehension of the Word of God.

How so? In the absence of full comprehension of what are the intended messages of the Bible, how do you conclude that the Scriptures were inspired by God?

 

[TimothyH]

Timothy, I don’t know what you’re trying to say. Did God Himself choose the actual words, or did God inspire the human authors who then conveyed God’s message in their own words?

The latter. The Holy Spirit inspired the human authors who then used their own language and skill to communicate the truth’s God wants us to know.

The ultimate source of Scripture is God. Scripture is, in part, God’s revelation of he who is the source of Scripture, that is to say, himself.

When God reveals something to us, we know it is true because he has revealed it to us. Jesus Christ said, “I am the truth.” God does not lie.

-Tim-

God does not lie.

 

[Jim_Baur]

There are seven capital sins.

Each one has descendants.

Pride has a few, boasting, disobedience and the like.

God’s anger or hate works against these descendants.

God works against my boasting in many ways, mostly my constant failures.

ETC…

 

[Nixbits]

TimothyH:

The Holy Spirit inspired the human authors who then used their own language and skill to communicate the truth’s God wants us to know.

My point is that it’s very difficult, perhaps impossible, to determine what is the true message of many parts of Scripture because it was written by and for people who lived so long ago and who had a very different cultural background to us. The authors used their own words, but we don’t share a common cultural viewpoint that would allow us to understand the words in the context that they were intended.

 

[jcrichton]

How so? In the absence of full comprehension of what are the intended messages of the Bible, how do you conclude that the Scriptures were inspired by God?

Hi!
I offered a simple example as proof (Yahweh God’s Promise to Abram whose name was changed to Abraham and the comparison made of his descendants–sand and stars–and how only till the Hobble Telescope could that comparison be understood since up till then the latest scientific evidence did not demonstrate the massive number of stars in the universe).

However, you can read through Scriptures in find the various prophecies and their fulfillment as further proof.

Another simple proof is Jesus’ prophecy about the razing of the Temple; the Jews would have never dreamt that that would ever happen… 70 AD was quite a wake up call!

Now, the fact that we do not have complete knowledge and lack the ability to understand the Signs does not negate God’s Omnipotence or Omniscience.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

My point is that it’s very difficult, perhaps impossible, to determine what is the true message of many parts of Scripture because it was written by and for people who lived so long ago and who had a very different cultural background to us. The authors used their own words, but we don’t share a common cultural viewpoint that would allow us to understand the words in the context that they were intended.

Hi!
This would be a problem if we were reading Scriptures as a source of historical/cultural/scientific documentation… in each case the meaning and understanding would change according to the development of technology and the various discoveries (scientific, anthropological, and archeological); however, the Word of God is Eternal (permanent)–it Reveals God as He chooses to Reveal Himself to us.

That is why Commandments do not change. That is why His Promise is patent and transcendent.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Nixbits]

jcrichton:

This would be a problem if we were reading Scriptures as a source of historical/cultural/scientific documentation… in each case the meaning and understanding would change according to the development of technology and the various discoveries (scientific, anthropological, and archeological); . . .

I disagree. The interpretation of Scripture is equally problematic when reading it as a source of instruction about the nature of God, His justice and how He wants us to behave. This is the point of the original post.

jcrichton:

. . . however, the Word of God is Eternal (permanent)–it Reveals God as He chooses to Reveal Himself to us. That is why Commandments do not change. That is why His Promise is patent and transcendent.

It doesn’t matter whether the Word of God is eternal or not if we can’t understand what the supposed Word of God means. As for the Commandments, are you referring to the 613 or just the ten?

 

[clem456]

My point is that it’s very difficult, perhaps impossible, to determine what is the true message of many parts of Scripture because it was written by and for people who lived so long ago and who had a very different cultural background to us. The authors used their own words, but we don’t share a common cultural viewpoint that would allow us to understand the words in the context that they were intended.

Good observations.
It’s not impossible. Scripture invites prayer to unlock it’s inspiration. The bible is not a textbook.

 

[Gorgias]

I disagree. The interpretation of Scripture is equally problematic when reading it as a source of instruction about the nature of God, His justice and how He wants us to behave. This is the point of the original post.

No, the point of the original post is that a single person – the OP – did not understand the Scriptures. To conclude that the Scriptures aren’t understandable would be like sitting in class for the first day of a Calculus course, and when one student says “this stuff is impossible,” we’d conclude that calculus itself was incomprehensible. It’s an invalid extrapolation. Just because one doesn’t understand it doesn’t follow that the material is incomprehensible by all.

It doesn’t matter whether the Word of God is eternal or not if we can’t understand what the supposed Word of God means. As for the Commandments, are you referring to the 613 or just the ten?

We as Catholics believe that the charism of proper interpretation of Scripture has been given to the Teaching Authority of the Church – the pope and all the bishops in union – which is sometimes called the ‘Magisterium’.

Therefore, for Catholics (and likely for many non-Catholic Christians as well, although their reasoning would differ), it is not the case that Scripture is incomprehensible. In fact, Pope Pius wrote of this very issue when he wrote that the work of Scripture scholars is invaluable in aiding the Magisterium in its task of interpreting Scripture.

 

[Nixbits]

Gorgias:

Just because one doesn’t understand it doesn’t follow that the material is incomprehensible by all.

You’re right. But, strictly speaking, just because one person, or many people, claim they understand what it means also does not make it comprehensible, inasmuch as the meaning they derive may not be the meaning intended by the author.

 

[Gorgias]

You’re right. But, strictly speaking, just because one person, or many people, claim they understand what it means also does not make it comprehensible, inasmuch as the meaning they derive may not be the meaning intended by the author.

Agreed. But, the Catholic claim is that it is the author who gives the Magisterium the grace to properly interpret Scripture.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

What should a Catholic make of this?

What should an unrepentant person expect when he sins against an infinite God?

 

[jcrichton]

I disagree. The interpretation of Scripture is equally problematic when reading it as a source of instruction about the nature of God, His justice and how He wants us to behave. This is the point of the original post.

It doesn’t matter whether the Word of God is eternal or not if we can’t understand what the supposed Word of God means. As for the Commandments, are you referring to the 613 or just the ten?

Hi!
…the interpretation of Scriptures is problematic when we selectively leave God out…

We have a clear example in Genesis… Satan selectively uses God’s Word to nullify God’s Word:

4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. Genesis 3:4)

…within the next few verses we find that Eve does eat of the fruit that was forbidden; not only that but proceeds to offer it to Adam; yet, even though they both eat of the forbidden fruit they, physically, do not die…

So did God lie and Satan revealed the truth?

…well, if we stop right there there’s only one conclusion (which would make your arguments correct). But that is only the beginning!

Soon after eating the forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve are exiled from the Garden. The Tree of Life is forever out of their reach. And, just as Yahweh God warned them, they incurred, spiritual, death–which was inherited by all of their descendants.

The conclusion, in the greater context, was wrong–God is the source of Truth!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[gus]

I am an amateur geneoligist and as such have had the opportunity to study many families over multiple generations.
I believe thinking this is a curse of sorts is erroneous.My belief and other Christian geneoligist have discussed this and came to the same conclusion that this a prophetic verse Contray to popular belief we alone are not effected by our sins but our children and their children still feel the effects.
All of us have seen the patterns repeated once established.
Whether its kAdultery,Alcolism,Abuse, Desertion or suicide. Even divorce especially were there are young children creates a growth industry for phycologists.

 

[jcrichton]

You’re right. But, strictly speaking, just because one person, or many people, claim they understand what it means also does not make it comprehensible, inasmuch as the meaning they derive may not be the meaning intended by the author.

Hi!
…you are of course thinking of Scriptures as not Inspired by God and as not directed towards God’s Plan.

Devoid of Faith it is impossible for you or anyone else to come close to begin to understand the Mind of God since it is only through God’s Holy Spirit that we can grasp God’s Revelations:

20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. (2 St. Peter 1:20-21)

15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. (St. John 14:15-17)

12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. (St. John 16:12-13)

The Holy Bible is not a recipe book or a novel that contains the elements that the mind of man has determined to display/concoct–it is the Word of God which transcends time.

The key to understanding Scriptures lies not in man’s ability to crunch numbers and theories but in God’s Own Holy Sprit:

23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.” (St. John 4:23-24)

Therefore, anyone who rejects this instruction does not reject a human being but God, the very God who gives you his Holy Spirit. (1 Thessalonians 4:8)

Maran atha!

Angel