In Persona Christi - 2 Cor. 2:10

  • Thread starter Thread starter Randy_Carson
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
R

Randy_Carson

Guest
The Douay-Rheims and King James Versions provide powerful backing for the Catholic doctrine of confession to a priest.

The passage is found in 2 Corinthians 2:10 and hinges upon the translation of the Greek word, prosopon. Here is the passage as seen in context in three major translations.

Douay-Rheims
“For to this end also did I write, that I may know the experiment of you, whether you be obedient in all things. And to whom you have pardoned any thing, I also. For, what I have pardoned, if I have pardoned any thing, for your sakes have I done it in the person of Christ.”

King James
For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things. To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;

New International
The reason I wrote you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything. If you forgive anyone, I also forgive him. And what I have forgiven—if there was anything to forgive—I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake

While the first two translations each contain the words “in the person of Christ” or in persona Christi, the modern Protestant translation carefully avoids this phrase. Why is this important? In persona Christi is a Latin phrase which translates literally as “in the person of Christ.” This is an important theological concept of the Catholic Church referring to the action of a priest while celebrating a sacrament. The priest acts in the person of Christ, or it could be said, the Person of Christ is acting in the performance of the gesture and the pronouncing of the words of the sacramental rite.

In particular, there are essential moments in the rites where the priest’s words and gestures confect the sacrament. These words are spoken in persona Christi. “This is my body.” in the Eucharistic prayer and “I absolve you of your sins” in the Sacrament of Reconciliation are chief examples.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_persona_ChristiIs this another example of the anti-Catholic bias of the NIV? Or has the NIV, like the NAB and RSV-CE, captured the phrase more accurately?
 
Randy_Carson said:
The Douay-Rheims and King James Versions provide powerful backing for the Catholic doctrine of confession to a priest.

The passage is found in 2 Corinthians 2:10 and hinges upon the translation of the Greek word, prosopon. Here is the passage as seen in context in three major translations.

Douay-Rheims
“For to this end also did I write, that I may know the experiment of you, whether you be obedient in all things. And to whom you have pardoned any thing, I also. For, what I have pardoned, if I have pardoned any thing, for your sakes have I done it in the person of Christ.”

King James
For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things. To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;

New International
The reason I wrote you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything. If you forgive anyone, I also forgive him. And what I have forgiven—if there was anything to forgive—I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake

While the first two translations each contain the words “in the person of Christ” or in persona Christi, the modern Protestant translation carefully avoids this phrase. Why is this important? In persona Christi is a Latin phrase which translates literally as “in the person of Christ.” This is an important theological concept of the Catholic Church referring to the action of a priest while celebrating a sacrament. The priest acts in the person of Christ, or it could be said, the Person of Christ is acting in the performance of the gesture and the pronouncing of the words of the sacramental rite.

In particular, there are essential moments in the rites where the priest’s words and gestures confect the sacrament. These words are spoken in persona Christi. “This is my body.” in the Eucharistic prayer and “I absolve you of your sins” in the Sacrament of Reconciliation are chief examples.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_persona_ChristiIs this another example of the anti-Catholic bias of the NIV? Or has the NIV, like the NAB and RSV-CE, captured the phrase more accurately?
Click to expand...
Actually, the NAB, RSV CE and the RSV 2CE all translate the passage as “in the presence of Christ”. Only the Douay Rheims, of the English Catholic Bibles, uses “in the person of Christ”.
 
The real question is how the Greek word Prosoponshould be rendered in this passage.

I will grant that in other passages it could be rendered differently if the context of the passage warranted it.

So the questions comes down to–in cases where more than one rendering of a word is possible does the witness of the Catholic Church and its teachings for over 2,000 years account for anything?

Should that witness and those teachings carry more weight than a Protestant understanding of the bible?

For Protestants the answer would indeed be no–for Catholics it would indeed be yes.

What did Paul originally mean when wrote to the church in Corinth and used the word prosopon?

Don’t tell me that modern biblical scholarship is not capable of asking such a question and critically being able to give the more probable answer.

You could of course tell me that modern scholarship might give a very different answer than that given by the tradition of the Vulgate and I would believe such a statement!

Why? Well if the modern biblical scholarship of even bishops who are part of the magisterium can approve inclusive language renderings that are unacceptable to the Holy See–then those very same biblical scholars are quite able to give a rendering such as presence over person.

That’s not to say that the Protestantas always have things wrong. It is not the Catholic Church’s right to change the scriptures where it finds them inconvenient–

Jus as it is not the Protestant’s perogative to change “Full of Grace”!

One good thing about the Catholic Editions of the RSV is that they have made some minor changes for the better.

When a final liturgy is approved those parts of the Liturgy that come from the NAB and are approved by the Holy See will certainly be good enough and will have ecclesiastical approval.

Does that mean that the NAB with those changes will be superior in accuracy to the RSV or the Douay Rheims?

No! It will mean that we will eventually have a better NAB if one is published with all those changes. The RSV is better with the Catholic changes.

The Douay Rheims Challoner in my opinion is better with the minute changes of Haydock which used some of the renderings of Dr. Troy.

Learn Latin–read the Nova Vulgata–read Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew and see what the Catholic Church has taught about various subjects that the Bible refers to and then you’ll be pretty close to accuracy.

We’ll never get complete accuracy with the bible just like our understanding of God will never be complete at least as far as we’re able to understand God until we’re in heaven after the final judgement.

Until then whatever Bible you prefer by all means read it!

And also by all means be critical of it–that includes all versions of the Bible.

By doing so you will love God with your “whole mind” which Jesus commanded us to do.

All the other people who have posted here and disagreee with me–I’m sure that is what they’re doing and to all I say Peace and help me understand as you understand.

We can all learn from one another.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top