In quoting the Word of God do Catholics want it both ways?

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jjoshjl:
Robert…

May I ask you something, and please, I am not trying to bait, simply asking something for you to consider…

What is your definition of a personal relationship, What do you mean by the Holy Spirit speaks to you directly. While I have a great lvoe for our lord, and desire to do his will, he has never spoken to me audibly in words… I feel his presence in the church, I feel his presence in the eucharist, I feel his presence when I read scripture. But That is differant than saying he is speaking to me directly…

So, my question is this…

I read the bible on a daily basis, I pray as often as I can when ever i even think it might be appropraite, I have accepted and beleive that Jesus Died for us, so, since I cannot hear the audible voice of god as you appear to eb able to, does this make me any less a christian…

Something else to keep in mind…

How does the loard speak to us… as a thunder storm, as an earthquake, or the subtle breeze that follows…

In Christ
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I am suppose to talk to people about a personal relationship with Jesus not judge their relationship with Him. All I can do is share my own relationship. Jesus started calling me to His ministry, by using my wife’s gift of tongues and interpretation, so this is how he first spoke to me. Next He used the gift of knowledge, the next method is hard to explain because it seemed He would speak to me in my mind. After about two years I also received the gift of tongue and with my wife having the gift of interpretation, this made it easy to ask Jesus questions and receive an answer from Him. I would have a question and then get a tongue and my wife would have the interpretation, which would be the answer to my question. Jesus only spoke to me audibly twice. The first time He spoke He audibly He said,” Bob, All honor and glory belongs to me not you” I knew I had been scolded by God and I cried for three days. After that happened when ever I would get a negative though of anyone, Jesus would flood me with positive thoughts about that person. The next time Jesus spoke to me audibly, I was at a Sunday Mass and I heard a voice which said, “Quite trying to figure me out just follow me.” Jesus also has given me visions of the two of us walking down a dirt road with Him teaching and telling me things. Finally one night Jesus told me to pray to be open to His touch and word all day long.

All this happened twenty to thirty years ago. I have raised a family of four children three have graduated from college and the forth has Downs Syndrome which make it difficult for her to learn some things. I also went back to college at age fifty-two to get a degree in electronics. I’m telling you all this because most people, with whom I share what I have shared with you, think I’m a person with a severe mental problem. I am seventy-one years old am still working for a living and helping provide day care for two of my grand children. Not bad for someone who has many people believing he should be committed to the state mental health hospital.

I am sharing this so that you can see that I am paying a price to share what Jesus told me to share, and maybe then you will take what I say a little more serious.
Robert
 
Robert Heibel:
Well! Jim O you sure are not afraid to speak your mind are you? You seem to have gotten upset that anyone could challenge the teachings of the Catholic Church. You also seam to be quite adapt at putting someone on the defensive. Normally I wouldn’t even brother answering a post such as yours, because of all the false accusations in the post, but because many people may read just your post and believe that what you have said, is true, I must reply.
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I was not trying to falsely accuse you of anything. In my first post I asked very directly if I understood your position correctly. You did not respond to that inquiry, so I assumed that my understanding was correct. If my understanding of your position is incorrect, I have no problem being corrected. I do not want to misrepresent your position at all, but all I can do is read your posts and ask for clarification.

I do not have any problem speaking my mind when someone starts a thread as you did, basically accusing Catholics, like myself, of “wanting it both ways” when it comes to Scripture. Implicit in your thread title is the “accusation” (which some might also consider false) that our understanding of Scripture is false or contradictory. If that is not what you meant, then please say so.

It doesn’t bother me when someone challenges the teachings of the Catholic Church, but I also have no problem “putting someone on the defensive” by offerring a challenge back. That is what apologetics is all about - challenging and answering the challenge - isn’t it? You have made a challenge and you should be willing to defend that challenge.
Robert Heibel:
I never said I had unerring understanding of Scripture, what I share is what the Holy Spirit has shared with me. Now no man or woman is perfect and that is why I believe the Holy Spirit told me to tell people that no matter who tells them anything about God their were to ask Jesus if it was right or wrong.
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This is precisely what the Mormons say. They ask Christians to read the book of Mormon and pray to Jesus to tell them whether it is the truth. Many do exactly as they ask and end up becoming Mormons. Is this because the Holy Spirit is inconsistent, misleading or false? Obviously, no. It is because our ability to hear the Holy Spirit is flawed. This is precisely why Catholics believe that Jesus gave the Church the authority to interpret Scripture and make final determinations on matters of faith and morals.
Robert Heibel:
If I thought anyone was infallible then there would be no need to ask Jesus if something is right or wrong. Also I never said I had a mandate to tell others something they must follow. The Holy Spirit told me that I would talk to Catholics about a personal relationship with Jesus and to non-Catholics that the Eucharist was truly the Body and Blood of Jesus, and about asking Jesus what is right or wrong. Jesus told me that a time was coming soon when man would suffer more that he has ever suffered. I was to give a word and leave. Out of that word a community would grow. He wanted a place of safety for His people. Now does this sound like I am telling others what they must believe? By the way Jesus has told me many other things and some of what He has taught me I do share, but I never ask anyone to believe me, but go to Jesus and ask Him if it is right or wrong. By the way Jesus did tell me we were not to hurt anyone for any reason. My advice is to ask Him if that is true or not.
Robert
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This is a noble calling - to speak to Catholics about a personal relationship with Christ and with non-Catholics about the Eucharist. If your original post had started along these lines, reactions would have been very different. I know that mine would have been. Please allow me to give you some insight with respect to Catholics. Many Catholics do have a personal relationship with Christ, but they don’t recognize the terminology used by many Protestants. For example, asking a Catholic if he/she is saved will often result in a puzzled look. Asking a Catholic if he/she loves Jesus and wants to grow in a relationship with Him will often result in a positive response. But, if you open up the encounter questioning whether Catholics want it both ways when interpreting Scripture, then you’ll likely get the kind of response reflected in this thread.

I would encourage you in your calling, but if you issue a challenge to a specific Church teaching, be prepared to defend that challenge.

Peace,

Jim
 
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Trelow:
blah blah blah, same ol’ same ol’

even Satan can quote scripture.
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Takes a man or woman of God to live the Word of God.
 
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ahimsaman72:
Robert,
This is an indication that you are a prophet of God, isn’t it? You go to him to ask what He wants - He tells you to spread the word around. That is the role of a prophet. What is your understanding of this relationship you have with Christ in this regard?
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Yes I have been called a prophet and I do walk in the gifts of a prophet, but as to what my relationship with Christ is in this regard is (Wow) that is a tough question. He told me to just follow Him.

Jesus has given me some indication of what my future role will be, but I don’t feel free to share that with people. I will say this, He let me see that there was a battle going on and He showed me that I, on my own, was not brave enough to get into the battle, and until He takes my hand I won’t be brave enough to fight the big battle. So until He takes my hand I’ll just keep doing what He told me to do.
Robert
 
Robert Heibel:
Yes I have been called a prophet and I do walk in the gifts of a prophet, but as to what my relationship with Christ is in this regard is (Wow) that is a tough question. He told me to just follow Him.

Jesus has given me some indication of what my future role will be, but I don’t feel free to share that with people. I will say this, He let me see that there was a battle going on and He showed me that I, on my own, was not brave enough to get into the battle, and until He takes my hand I won’t be brave enough to fight the big battle. So until He takes my hand I’ll just keep doing what He told me to do.
Robert
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I should have re-phrased my statements a bit. It appears that I was calling you a prophet, but I was asking in a rhetorical way.
Though from a Baptist background, I have had friends and family members who were of the pentecostal sort (church of God, Assemblies of God) and they would speak of such things. I also have attended services where the “gifts of the Spirit” were used. So, I just wanted to clarify what you were telling us. If you are given prophecies (like you have mentioned) then that office is one of prophecy. And I wondered if you were clear as to what this really entails (that is, that in essence you are claiming to be a prophet - a very serious claim to make). And yes, I would not share with too many people these kinds of things. It’s not taken easily and can harm rather than do good in the end.

Peace…
 
Please forgive me as I do not wish to be arguentative,

However, If you are saying you first heard christ speaking to you audibly through the gift of tongues through your wife, I beg of you to please consider it suspect as I beleive you have been severly misled on what it means to speak in tongues…

To speak in tongues, as has beenmentioned, is mearly the ability for someone to suddenly beable to speak a language of a people that you never learned in an attempt to spread the words of christ.

EXAMPLE: Previously mentioned
If you go to france, and have never learned french in any way, upon trying to spread the word, you all of a sudden can speak French, and everyone there can understand you, THAT is speaking tongues as it pretains to a gift of the spirit.

If you tell me that when you emt your wife, she was of another culture and a differant language, and then she was able to ‘evangilize’ with you, I will accept that. If you mean she was speaking in strange words and sounds that does not correspond to any language, this is NOT a gift of the tongues.

I do not know where this idea developed about speaking in tongues meaning speaking in giborish, but I can assure you, it is not Biblical.

Let em reiterate that as this is a charge often thrown at catholcis…

speaking in ginorish is NOT biblical, it is NOT scriptural, and I do not need the CC to tell me this. a clear understanding of the gifts of the spirit as discibed in the bible would help you undersand this.

Please, do not think I am tryig to attack you,a s this is not my intent, I applaud you for trying to spread the word. I applaud you for trying to explain that it is a real presence, not a symbol. I applaud you for trying to ensure we as catholics increase our own faith,

However, i plead with you to resarch what speaking in tongues truely means.

Again, I do respect you and am not trying to insult, only wish to guide you away from an idea that is very anti scriptural…

In Christ
 
I think you’ll find that speaking in tongues also means speaking in “gibberish”. In some of Paul’s epistles, he talks about speaking in tongues, that one should not do it if there is not an interpreter around.

Notworthy
 
Paul also says in a scripture about praying with “groans and intercessions.” HE mentions that when praying in tongues, your spirit is praying, the Holy Spirit is interceding through you. But, he argues that unless you have an interpertation this should not be done in public, but quietly to oneself. Paul said that he prays in tongues more than most, but when he’s in public he’d much rather speak two sensible words.
 
Robert Heibel:
Jesus has given me some indication of what my future role will be, but I don’t feel free to share that with people. I will say this, He let me see that there was a battle going on and He showed me that I, on my own, was not brave enough to get into the battle, and until He takes my hand I won’t be brave enough to fight the big battle. So until He takes my hand I’ll just keep doing what He told me to do.
Robert
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If this is personal revelation, then it would not be binding upon us. Note that it seems implied that you WILL go into battle, but only AFTER God takes your hand. Note that he hasn’t taken your hand yet, and after he does you might be asked to go into battle. Now, what this has to do with not defending your family I don’t know.
 
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yochumjy:
If this is personal revelation, then it would not be binding upon us.
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And personal revelation that contradicts public revelation is not any kind of revelation at all.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
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yochumjy:
If this is personal revelation, then it would not be binding upon us. Note that it seems implied that you WILL go into battle, but only AFTER God takes your hand. Note that he hasn’t taken your hand yet, and after he does you might be asked to go into battle. Now, what this has to do with not defending your family I don’t know.
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I don’t have any authority to even try to make anything binding on any one. What I’m trying to get people to do is go to Jesus to get answers about God. I’m sharing my own personal relationship, but in no way would I ask anyone to follow me. Jesus told me to give a word, but He didn’t tell me to tell people the word I was giving was Gospel. Now for me because I know that it is God who has been teaching me, it is Gospel, but I wouldn’t expect anyone to believe me unless they themselves received confirmation from God. In thirty years, as far as I know, that hasn’t happened.
Robert
 
Robert Heibel:
Jesus told me to give a word, but He didn’t tell me to tell people the word I was giving was Gospel.
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Did Jesus tell you to read the Bible too?
 
Did Jesus tell you to read the Bible too?
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Even better–Did Jesus ever tell anyone (other than John, who wrote Revelation) to write anything down at all? Did he tell them what was truly in the canon of Scripture?

-ACEGC
 
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edward_george:
Even better–Did Jesus ever tell anyone (other than John, who wrote Revelation) to write anything down at all? Did he tell them what was truly in the canon of Scripture?

-ACEGC
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Yes, Jesus personally told me He is God and also that the Bible was His written Word. He told me to get more into the written Word, letting me know at the time that I wasn’t reading the Word enough. That was twenty eight years ago.
 
Robert Heibel:
Yes, Jesus personally told me He is God and also that the Bible was His written Word. He told me to get more into the written Word, letting me know at the time that I wasn’t reading the Word enough. That was twenty eight years ago.
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Jesus told me that anyone who claims truths contrary to what His Holy Bride teaches is wrong.

😛 There. I’ve a revelation too.
 
Robert Heibel:
…but I wouldn’t expect anyone to believe me unless they themselves received confirmation from God. In thirty years, as far as I know, that hasn’t happened.
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And yet, despite 30 years of failure, it is everyone else who is wrong and not you.

Once again: Anything that claims to be revealed by God, yet contradicts what God has revealed to everyone, is not actually from God. It is a lie.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
jjoshjl:
Please forgive me as I do not wish to be arguentative,

However, If you are saying you first heard christ speaking to you audibly through the gift of tongues through your wife, I beg of you to please consider it suspect as I beleive you have been severly misled on what it means to speak in tongues…

To speak in tongues, as has beenmentioned, is mearly the ability for someone to suddenly beable to speak a language of a people that you never learned in an attempt to spread the words of christ.

EXAMPLE: Previously mentioned
If you go to france, and have never learned french in any way, upon trying to spread the word, you all of a sudden can speak French, and everyone there can understand you, THAT is speaking tongues as it pretains to a gift of the spirit.

If you tell me that when you emt your wife, she was of another culture and a differant language, and then she was able to ‘evangilize’ with you, I will accept that. If you mean she was speaking in strange words and sounds that does not correspond to any language, this is NOT a gift of the tongues.

I do not know where this idea developed about speaking in tongues meaning speaking in giborish, but I can assure you, it is not Biblical.

Let em reiterate that as this is a charge often thrown at catholcis…

speaking in ginorish is NOT biblical, it is NOT scriptural, and I do not need the CC to tell me this. a clear understanding of the gifts of the spirit as discibed in the bible would help you undersand this.

Please, do not think I am tryig to attack you,a s this is not my intent, I applaud you for trying to spread the word. I applaud you for trying to explain that it is a real presence, not a symbol. I applaud you for trying to ensure we as catholics increase our own faith,

However, i plead with you to resarch what speaking in tongues truely means.

Again, I do respect you and am not trying to insult, only wish to guide you away from an idea that is very anti scriptural…

In Christ
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I have heard a number of different people’s understanding of the gift of tongues, and the best answer I can give is: Jesus can do anything He wants to do. My personal thinking about why so much is written against Jesus personally talking to peoples and any of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is because Jesus hasn’t talked to them and they haven’t received any of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, so rather than finding out why, the just say it doesn’t happen. Also I believe there are a lot of people out there, that are afraid of what the Holy Spirit and Jesus will say.
 
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mlchance:
And yet, despite 30 years of failure, it is everyone else who is wrong and not you.

Once again: Anything that claims to be revealed by God, yet contradicts what God has revealed to everyone, is not actually from God. It is a lie.

– Mark L. Chance.
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Not if the Word of God backs up everything that is told to me
 
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Trelow:
Jesus told me that anyone who claims truths contrary to what His Holy Bride teaches is wrong.

😛 There. I’ve a revelation too.
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AMEN!!! You have that right all the way.
Robert
 
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