In reference to the scandal (should we be doing something?)

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philipl said:
I find it reasonable to question the commitment to the faith of someone who dismisses the cornerstones of that faith.
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You find it acceptable to question my commitment to my faith and when I point out that I am very committed to my faith, you then tell me that you’re not impressed with my self praise. You seem very willing to question my values and commitment to my faith. Who died and left you in charge of peoples faith?
therese1998 said:
u are not an equal to the Pope in Church authority. You are not his equal in theological knowledge and development. You are not his equal in responsibility. The Lord has placed the Pope in authority AND responsibility over you. You ARE his equal in human worth, as you are both created and cherished by the Lord. But you will be answerable for any disrespect you show. Not righteous anger, correctly placed and executed, but deliberate disrespect of his person, not matter how justified you feel it is, is not justified in His eyes. Very hard truth, I would totally agree.
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When I face judgement day I will be judged upon the same standard as every single person that died before me that has reached the age of reasoning. Jesus will not have different standards for different people. He wont tell a Pope that yes you’re guilty of sin, but since you were a pope I’ll let it slide. I hope these accusation against the Pope are false. But we know they are factually provable with Cardinal Wuerl and Cardinal McCarrick. There is enough evidence these two men should be indicted face a trial and if found guilty go to jail for the rest of their lives. Why so many catholic are fearful of legal justice being served is cowardliness.
therese1998 said:
They have EVERY right to tell you to pray and fast. They also have EVERY responsibility to wholly and without grudge participate in the free and transparent disclosure of information and reform of the church.
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I am very angry, but it is righteous anger as you said. Every single catholic has a right to be angry. I will not give another dime to the church as if the my church has to close it doors that is fine with me. That building isnt the church. If we have to close all the catholic churches in the USA and then rebuild the church will be stronger afterward.

Not until they earn my trust again, they don’t. I don’t trust any priest what so ever. Again the had the church leaders did the right thing 37 years ago, this would be a non issue. They knew 70 years ago that Priest were molesting boys and they did nothing to stop it. What they have done is made it far worse. The men who molested and covered up molestation are guilty of crimes here in the USA. Those men need to face justice. Once justice is served in a court of law, the church may start to heal. Until then it is going to be a festering wound.
 
Truly, @philipl, I think I’m done with this. I’ve said my peace and the rest seems like simply arguing for the sake of arguing and I don’t see value in that.
 
therese1998 said:
-FACT: Change needs to be made. Can’t think of anyone who doesn’t agree. The argument is in the execution.
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Have you gone through the training at your local Parish?
  • If you haven’t, you really aren’t qualified to make your FACT statement.
  • If you have, what change do you think is required?
 
Annie said:
Maybe he’s thinking that more than that needs to change?
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I think it’s easy to be an arm chair quarterback on such an emotional issue. I’m pretty good at that myself 🙂

Before going through the training I would have agreed things needed to change, but my mindset was how the Church operated when I was growing up, not how it is currently operating.

I think the current training is good and people are taught to report any allegations directly to the police. Only after calling the police would you contact your pastor or perhaps the Bishop. This should be adequate unless the police are involved in a cover up.

If the change is required in seminar admittance, I don’t have expertise there. I’m confident they do background checks and am not sure we have the psychological expertise to identify potential abusers who haven’t abused yet. This is confounded by the very real problem of a Priest shortage. Allowing married people to enter Seminary might help by expanding the candidate pool, but this is far broader than targeting abuse.
 
Theo520 said:
execution.
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Yes, I have, as it turns out. I DO try to put my money where my mouth is.

I was referring to the changes that have already been made. Do I see room for changes, today in 2018? Sure. There’s always room for improvement, but I would say we are well on our way to dealing effectively and decisively with sexual abuse inside of the Church.
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Fr. James Martin has some good recommendations:

“What must happen.

Dear friends: Like you, I am sick about what is happening in our church. Also like you, I’ve prayed about how best to move ahead. Our church will survive. The “gates of hell” will not prevail against it, as Jesus Christ himself promised us.

But Christ, through the workings of the Holy Spirit, urges us to act: to rebuild the church and help his holy and faithful people. Without certain steps, people will flow out of the church, never to return, like water from the side of the Crucified One on Good Friday.

Some of you may not agree with each of these steps, but I believe that each one is essential for us to rebuild the church. This list is neither complete or exhaustive.

But in order of immediacy, and with a focus on the US church, they are:

First, while journalists have discredited large sections of the Vigano “testimony,” and while many charges have been revealed as baseless, there is one charge that journalists will not be able to uncover is Pope Francis’s knowledge and actions regarding the McCarrick case.

The faithful are exceedingly confused about this question; a short and simple answer from the Pope or from the Vatican will help us move us ahead.

Second, dioceses and religious orders should open their abuse files to the public, rather than waiting until they are forced to do so. Otherwise, the church will face years, perhaps decades, of civic authorities slowly uncovering our secret crimes, sins and failings. Confession is not just about what you’re forced to reveal.

Third, lay leaders should investigate the McCarrick case. More importantly, lay leaders should be placed in charge of all review boards in dioceses and religious orders, if they are not already in charge. The system has proven that it cannot police itself.

Fourth, bishops found guilty of abuse, or of covering it up, must be removed from their posts as soon as possible. Perhaps just as important, when bishops resign, the Vatican must be clear about the reasons for their resignations.

Fifth…
 
“Fifth, the widespread demonization within the church must end. It is a stumbling block to healing and disedifying to both Catholics and non-Catholics. Social media has played a malign role. The stereotyping of whole groups (gays, celibates, bishops, liberals, conservatives) must end. Personal vilification must stop.

Sixth, public acts of penance from the hierarchy must take place. Letters and statements are, as we have seen, insufficient. The laity should decide what form these acts should take. Symbolic actions, as well as practical actions, matter here.

Seventh, both married men and women must be included in all levels of decision-making in the church—including heading Vatican congregations, reforming the Curia, helping to select bishops, etc.

Married men and women must also be included in all levels of leadership—including leadership in the church’s liturgical life, something of immense symbolic importance. Married priests and women deacons are a start.

Eighth, a thoroughgoing review of seminary formation, especially regarding education in human sexuality, must happen—again. There are still seminaries and religious orders where candidates are incapable of, or prevented from, discussing the most fundamental areas of their lives.

Ninth, clericalism must die. The system privileging the status of bishops and priests over that of lay people (and parents); that insists on an exaggerated deference for clergy and bishops, and that has functioned as a closed world, must be dismantled.

Finally, despair about this situation must end. Despair is not of God. The Holy Spirit is with us and will help us through even the most difficult times. We must never forget Jesus’s words to his disciples: Fear not!”
 
At Mass this morning our pastor promulgated a pastoral letter in which he called for, among other things, fasting and prayer for reparation. I think rather that I will make the focus of my prayer that all perpetrators of any sexual abuse AND those who helped hide those crimes be exposed, removed from whatever posts they may occupy, no matter how high, and be turned over to the criminal justice systems of the countries in which the crimes took part, if criminal liability still applies. Justice not only must be done; it must be seen as being done.

#DraintheSwamp
#CleansetheTemple

D
 
So, now, that Francis is still silent, and most have moved on to other, more “interesting” news, what do we do NOW?

I’m realising how little recourse we have within the structure of the church, to change it. Francis has no reason to speak if he so chooses, he can’t be removed as pope, and he doesn’t need to do anything to the monsters within, like Wuerl and McCarrick.

Yes, I know… fast and pray. I’ll fast and pray that these devils come to repentance and do the right thing. But I am not hopeful.
 
They are correct. No more money! Cardinal Wuerl has hired the law firm of Jones Day in case he has to mount a defense. Where do you think the funds are coming from? Do you have any idea what they charge? Every Catholic institution should be outraged by such a poor response by the Pope.
Secondly, it’s time for the western churches to join the eastern churches to giving priests an option of marriage. I do not believe celibacy is the cause of sex abuse in the church, whether minor or young adults, but the single men only thing is an open door to pervert predators looking for a place to hide.
 
Do yourself a favor, give directly to something or someone special. My church has something called St. Gregory’s Pantry where every week they request certain products for distribution. I am no longer giving money to my parish. Cardinal Wuerl has hired the law firm of Jones Day. Do you have any idea what they charge an hour? I will no longer give to the Catholic Appeal. If they didn’t pay out millions of dollars in abuse cases, there would never be any need for the Catholic Appeal.
 
Every member of the clergy who does not speak out and take action is NOT innocent. Cardinal Wuerl has hired Jones Day law firm. Where do you think that money is coming from? Billions of dollars have been paid out to victims of sex abuse. Where do you think that money came from? When you give, give, give, you are enabling. We must send a message that this will no longer be tolerated.
 
The Popes refusal to comment on the allegations made against him is damming IMHO. Oh and are we aware of the 300 page dossier prepared for Benedict that outlines the who what and where of the Lavender Mafia in Rome? The thinking is Benedict resigned because he thought the problems outlined was too much for him to take on. The report was handed to Francis (there is even a picture of this event) and Francis has not taken any action that we are aware of.
 
In reference to the scandal, how do we behave towards the perpetrators? I know we must pray for them. But say a family member or friend is one of the ones who committed these acts. Say he is penitent, seeking counsel and has absented himself from the temptation to sin again in this regard. How do we respond to them?
 
By loving them and by helping them out by not bringing out children into his/her presence.
 
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