In 'Respect For Life' Statement, No Mention Of Death Penalty

[Corki]

Hi Tim,
Another sad reflection on modern Christendom is that not a single prayer was offered up for Troy Davis on this or any other site I have visited!
Richard.

You didn’t look very hard. There were at least four separate prayer intention threads for Troy Davis here at CAF. That doesn’t even count the prayers that were offered in the other Troy Davis threads.

 

[Orogeny]

Hi Tim,
are you implying that the execution of Christ justifies the execution of others? Another sad reflection on modern Christendom is that not a single prayer was offered up for Troy Davis on this or any other site I have visited!
Richard.

You used the death of our Lord as a reason to oppose capital punishment. Rather than try and avoid the question, try answering it. Where would we be if the state did not execute Christ?

Peace

Tim

 

[Ahimsa]

You used the death of our Lord as a reason to oppose capital punishment. Rather than try and avoid the question, try answering it. Where would we be if the state did not execute Christ?

Peace

Tim

Some theologians argue that the Christ Incarnation did not require an execution. The salvation of humanity would have occurred in any event.

Where would we be? We wouldn’t have the cross as a symbol.

 

[RICKY_RASPER]

REF I think a lot of Scripture scholars would agree with you but it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Christ condemning the men who condemned a woman to death has nothing to do with the Topic at hand? I don’t think so.!
I’m sure Troy’s mother was grateful for your prayers but not of your support for the system that murdered him.It’s also quite revealing to see so many Catholics openly reject the present and past Popes opinion on execution!
Your Brother in Christ

 

[Miriam1947]

What amazes me is how often those who are against the death penalty are so often for abortion.

One kills a person who has been found guilty of an offense by a jury.

One kills a person who is completely innocent.

 

[Orogeny]

Some theologians argue that the Christ Incarnation did not require an execution. The salvation of humanity would have occurred in any event.

Some theologians might argue that, but the Church doesn’t. According to the Church, it was God’s will that His Son would die for our salvation.
Catechism of the Catholic Church:

624 “By the grace of God” Jesus tasted death “for every one”.459 In his plan of salvation, God ordained that his Son should not only "die for our sins"460 but should also “taste death”, experience the condition of death, the separation of his soul from his body, between the time he expired on the cross and the time he was raised from the dead. The state of the dead Christ is the mystery of the tomb and the descent into hell. It is the mystery of Holy Saturday, when Christ, lying in the tomb,461 reveals God’s great sabbath rest462 after the fulfillment463 of man’s salvation, which brings peace to the whole universe.464

The bottom line is that it was God’s will, so it had to happen. So the question remains - Where would we be if the state did not execute Christ?

Peace

Tim

 

[RICKY_RASPER]

You used the death of our Lord as a reason to oppose capital punishment. Rather than try and avoid the question, try answering it. Where would we be if the state did not execute Christ?

Peace

Tim

Yes Tim I did use the crucifixion of the Lord to demonstrate the evils of execution.The fact that the very first Catholic Emperor Constantine I banned it’s use speaks volumes to us today. I will always use the word to defend life. Are you prepared to cast the first stone ?
Would Christ be unable to write your sins in the dirt ? If you say yes, cast the stone. If you say no leave the stone on the dirt with your own sin.
Yours in Christ,
Richard.

 

[Corki]

REF I think a lot of Scripture scholars would agree with you but it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Christ condemning the men who condemned a woman to death has nothing to do with the Topic at hand? I don’t think so.!
I’m sure Troy’s mother was grateful for your prayers** but not of your support for the system that murdered him**.It’s also quite revealing to see so many Catholics openly reject the present and past Popes opinion on execution!
Your Brother in Christ

Prove that I support any system of murdering.

 

[Orogeny]

Yes Tim I did use the crucifixion of the Lord to demonstrate the evils of execution.The fact that the very first Catholic Emperor Constantine I banned it’s use speaks volumes to us today. I will always use the word to defend life.

Where would we be if Christ had not died for our sins?

Did Constatine ban all executions or only the use of specific methods?

Are you prepared to cast the first stone Would Christ be unable to write your sins in the dirt ? If you say yes, cast the stone. If you say no leave the stone on the dirt with your own sin.
Yours in Christ,
Richard.

Be careful with making assumptions.

Are you saying that we cannot punish people for doing wrong because we are all sinners? Is life in prison ok? Even if the criminal asks for forgiveness?

Peace

Tim

 

[RICKY_RASPER]

What amazes me is how often those who are against the death penalty are so often for abortion.

One kills a person who has been found guilty of an offense by a jury.

One kills a person who is completely innocent.

I frequently encounter the same hypocrites and agree with you completely.I’m fortunate to be living in a country were abortion and execution are both illegal. A position that is equally supported by both Catholics and Protestants. It is perhaps quite surprising in a land that has been plagued with terrorism for decades that it’s people strive to forgive one-another and not seek retributive revenge at the hands of the state.
Respectfully yours in Christ,
Richard.

 

[crayons]

That’a a flawed argument if you want to consider the death penalty as a Respect Life issue. If you based your objections on the fact that there are sometimes mistakes made, then you would have to concede that the death penalty is perfectly fine as long as guilt is certain. That becomes a matter of whether the judicial system is working and not a life issue at all.

I pointed out what part of the quoted text I was responding to. Just because it’s not the most relevant part of the argument I quoted doesn’t make it immune to criticism. Whether or not it is a flawed argument against the death penalty as a Respect Life issue, it’s still a true point. The original poster wrote a false statement. And I simply corrected him. I did not intend to point it out as a reason for why it should be considred as a Respect Life issue, but a point as to why a part of the OP’s (of the post I quoted, not the thread) argument was flawed.

 

[RICKY_RASPER]

Prove that I support any system of murdering.

Christ clearly demonstrates in John 8:1 - 11 that he is not arguing with the judgement or even the woman’s guilt. He is however arguing with our right to execute the woman. He is clearly saying that man is forbidden to take the life of another. He does not attempt to excuse the woman of her sin, in fact he condemns her for it; forgives her and tells her to sin no more. It is crystal clear that the Lord from this point on is forbidding the death sentence. It has become unlawful in the eyes of God and so it had to become unlawful because Christ would otherwise have been executed legally under the law of the day.
To support the death sentence is to support murder as much as supporting abortion is.

 

[Orogeny]

He does not attempt to excuse the woman of her sin, in fact he condemns her for it; forgives her and tells her to sin no more.

Have you even read that passage? Jesus never condemns the woman.

It is crystal clear that the Lord from this point on is forbidding the death sentence.

Nope. That is your position and is a novel interpretation that is relatively new. It certainly wasn’t the interpretation to people like Thomas Aquinas who argued FOR capital punishment.

It has become unlawful in the eyes of God and so it had to become unlawful because Christ would otherwise have been executed legally under the law of the day.

The execution of Christ was legal under the law of the day.

To support the death sentence is to support murder as much as supporting abortion is.

I oppose capital punishment, but this statement is just wrong. One is punishment of a person who committed a crime and the other is the killing of an innocent child.

Peace

Tim

 

[Corki]

Prove that I support any system of murdering.

Christ clearly demonstrates in John 8:1 - 11 that he is not arguing with the judgement or even the woman’s guilt. He is however arguing with our right to execute the woman. He is clearly saying that man is forbidden to take the life of another. He does not attempt to excuse the woman of her sin, in fact he condemns her for it; forgives her and tells her to sin no more. It is crystal clear that the Lord from this point on is forbidding the death sentence. It has become unlawful in the eyes of God and so it had to become unlawful because Christ would otherwise have been executed legally under the law of the day.
To support the death sentence is to support murder as much as supporting abortion is.

Prove I support the death sentance.

 

[RICKY_RASPER]

Have you even read that passage? Jesus never condemns the woman.

He does not condemn her to death but the fact that he tell’s her to " sin no more " means she was guilty of the charge against her.

Nope. That is your position and is a novel interpretation that is relatively new. It certainly wasn’t the interpretation to people like Thomas Aquinas who argued FOR capital punishment.
Quote:

Thomas Aquinas in all his works quotes Aristotle more frequently than Christ. Go figure? He also espoused mortification of the body!

Given the following passage from Leviticus…
“If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death.” (Leviticus 20:10 RSV)…God has either changed the law Or changed his mind.Which is it ?

 

[Neildown]

I am replying to the bolded. This is not true! It’s especially terrible/funny-in-a-sad-way that you said this in reply to a post that mentioned Troy Davis! Perhaps, in an ideal world, everyone has the means to avoid the death penalty (though, I guess, in an ideal world we could say that there would be no need for the death penalty to even exist). However, in our current society (I am mainly focusing on the U.S., but this sort of thing is apparent in other societies as well), the interconnections of class/socioeconomic level, race, etc. play out so that our justice system does not carry out justice as it always should. But merely not-committing-crimes doesn’t guarantee everyone safety from punishment or the death penalty.

That’s why, according to the Church, you only inflict the death penalty when there is absolutely no reasonable doubt that the person facing it is guilty.

 

[Orogeny]

Thomas Aquinas in all his works quotes Aristotle more frequently than Christ. Go figure? He also espoused mortification of the body!

Given the following passage from Leviticus…
“If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death.” (Leviticus 20:10 RSV)…God has either changed the law Or changed his mind.Which is it ?

He forgave that woman.

Now, answer my question. Where would we be if the state had not been allowed to execute Christ?

Peace

Tim

 

[RICKY_RASPER]

Christianity 101 if Christ had not died on the cross we would not have received our salvation.But you seem to imply that Christ’s sacrifice justifies the use ( mostly of African Americans…Texas shuffle not being a racist thing of-course ) of the death penalty!

 

[Orogeny]

Christianity 101 if Christ had not died on the cross we would not have received our salvation.

So you should be very glad that states CAN perform executions.

But you seem to imply that Christ’s sacrifice justifies the use ( mostly of African Americans…Texas shuffle not being a racist thing of-course ) of the death penalty!

Nope. You used Christ’s death on the cross as a reason that states should not execute yet you now admit that we would not be saved if, in fact, states were not allowed to execute. Logical?

Well, there you have it. Us Texans are racists because it is worse to execute blacks than it is to execute whites. Did you vehemently oppose the execution of Lawrence Brewer? Was that racist? As someone smarter than Aquinas, you should know that playing the race card means that you don’t have a valid argument.

Peace

Tim

 

[RICKY_RASPER]

1 Peter 3:9 “Do not return evil with evil or insult with insult.”