In Scripture somewhere, it says 144,000 people go to heaven?

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In Scripture somewhere, it says 144,000 people go to heaven?

So does that mean a vast majority of Christians will not go to heaven? If there are 1,214 million catholics, then only 0.01 % get through to heaven?
 
No, Scripture does not say that only 144,000 will go to Heaven.
 
Seaborgium said:
In Scripture somewhere, it says 144,000 people go to heaven?

So does that mean a vast majority of Christians will not go to heaven? If there are 1,214 million catholics, then only 0.01 % get through to heaven?
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It doesn’t say that anywhere in doctrine. If I’m not mistaken, that’s a JW doctrine, and is completely unfounded.
 
It doesn’t say that anywhere. That is actually Adventist, they came up with that number out of a weird neurology from certain numbers in the bible and that is why they say that the bible says that number.
 
In all Charity, we all make mistakes, including me, but the best thing to minimise these errors is to read our Catholic Bible a little every day, listen to the Scriptures at Mass, so we know then when these odd beliefs with Reformation Sects come up is not from the Original Church, yes the Original Church - The Roman Catholic Church, which is "pre denominational, WE ARE THE ORIGINAL. Catholicism is Christianity at its fullest expression.

Happy Reading about the Lord and what He teaches in His Bible, and through his One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church and what it teaches also. You know the expression we have the three legged stool, look that one up now for yourself. :signofcross:
 
Seems to me that it’s somewhere in Revelation…but not dogmatic, of course. Curious that any religious group would continue to evangelize if only that number were allowed into paradise, isn’t it? Think of it…surely that number of “eligible” people was reached centuries ago…😉
 
They’re not just making up the number, it’s from the Apocalypse of St. John (a.k.a. Revelation):

7:4 And I heard the number of them that were signed, an hundred forty-four thousand were signed, of every tribe of the children of Israel.

14:1 And I beheld, and lo a lamb stood upon mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty-four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.

The question is whether this number is literal or symbolic. Haydock Commentary records two scholarly opinions:

Witham: By these determinate numbers need only be understood a great number of Jews converted and saved, though much greater was the number of the saved taken from among the Gentiles of all nations, of which it is said, I saw a great multitude, which no man could number, &c.

Ven. Bede: The number of one hundred and forty-four thousand is not to be taken in a literal and strict sense, but to express in general terms the great number of the elect; for it appears that the tribe of Dan, which certainly must have produced some elect, is not mentioned, and the tribe of Joseph is put in lieu of that of Ephraim: so that if it be supposed that these numbers must be taken literally, the tribe of Joseph would have produced a double number to that of any other tribe, since Manasses was his son, and the tribe of Dan would have produced none.
 
Ad_Orientem said:
They’re not just making up the number, it’s from the Apocalypse of St. John (a.k.a. Revelation):

7:4 And I heard the number of them that were signed, an hundred forty-four thousand were signed, of every tribe of the children of Israel.

14:1 And I beheld, and lo a lamb stood upon mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty-four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.

The question is whether this number is literal or symbolic. Haydock Commentary records two scholarly opinions:

Witham: By these determinate numbers need only be understood a great number of Jews converted and saved, though much greater was the number of the saved taken from among the Gentiles of all nations, of which it is said, I saw a great multitude, which no man could number, &c.

Ven. Bede: The number of one hundred and forty-four thousand is not to be taken in a literal and strict sense, but to express in general terms the great number of the elect; for it appears that the tribe of Dan, which certainly must have produced some elect, is not mentioned, and the tribe of Joseph is put in lieu of that of Ephraim: so that if it be supposed that these numbers must be taken literally, the tribe of Joseph would have produced a double number to that of any other tribe, since Manasses was his son, and the tribe of Dan would have produced none.
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👍 thanks it IS in there in a literal sense although as you said, not intended to be strictly interpreted. However based on some friends who converted to JW, they believe it. However those not among the 144K aren’t all relegated to Hell, they just don’t go to heaven.

Of course as we know there are significant numbers in the Bible including 3, 7, 40 and of course 12. 144000 is 12 times 12. Like raining 40 days and 40 nights, not necessarily a literal fact but just to indicate that this is a significant section.

Lisa
 
Yep standard Jehovah’s Witness doctrine and error.

The CAF apologists have a number of good messages that deal with their stuff.
The truth is that the very context of the passage they base this upon refutes it.

See Revelation 7.

Look here at what the passage actually says.

13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and whence have they come?”
14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” **And he said to me, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. **
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God,
and serve him day and night within his temple;
and he who sits upon the throne will shelter them with his
presence.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more;
the sun shall not strike them, nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd,
and he will guide them to springs of living water;
and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”
(emphasis mine)

It does not even infer that that they will be the only ones in Heaven.
 
Ad_Orientem said:
They’re not just making up the number, it’s from the Apocalypse of St. John (a.k.a. Revelation):

7:4 And I heard the number of them that were signed, an hundred forty-four thousand were signed, of every tribe of the children of Israel.

14:1 And I beheld, and lo a lamb stood upon mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty-four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.

The question is whether this number is literal or symbolic. Haydock Commentary records two scholarly opinions:

Witham: By these determinate numbers need only be understood a great number of Jews converted and saved, though much greater was the number of the saved taken from among the Gentiles of all nations, of which it is said, I saw a great multitude, which no man could number, &c.

Ven. Bede: The number of one hundred and forty-four thousand is not to be taken in a literal and strict sense, but to express in general terms the great number of the elect; for it appears that the tribe of Dan, which certainly must have produced some elect, is not mentioned, and the tribe of Joseph is put in lieu of that of Ephraim: so that if it be supposed that these numbers must be taken literally, the tribe of Joseph would have produced a double number to that of any other tribe, since Manasses was his son, and the tribe of Dan would have produced none.
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Yep, this is where the SDA get this belief from, and they are fundamentally misunderstanding it.

The number 144,000 is a symbolic number. It comes from 12 tribes of Israel (so first off, we aren’t talking about the number of Gentile Christians). The reason of 12 tribes is that 12 means completeness in the Bible, and so you have 12 tribes (completeness of the nation of Israel), multiplied by 12 (completeness of each tribe), multiplied by 1,000 (which signifies a very large or enormous amount). We know the number 1,000 is symbolic, as the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth described in Revelation by the Church has been going on for almost twice as long as that (and still counting!).

So the number 144,000 means the completeness of the nation of Israel to convert and come to Christ at the end of times. It doesn’t even mention the number of gentile Christians, as Revelation mentions that these numbers are uncountable.
 
LisaA said:
👍 thanks it IS in there in a literal sense although as you said, not intended to be strictly interpreted. However based on some friends who converted to JW, they believe it. However those not among the 144K aren’t all relegated to Hell, they just don’t go to heaven.

Of course as we know there are significant numbers in the Bible including 3, 7, 40 and of course 12. 144000 is 12 times 12. Like raining 40 days and 40 nights, not necessarily a literal fact but just to indicate that this is a significant section.

Lisa
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Right. JW’s believe they are relegated to paradise on earth, not heaven. The 144,000 annointed were all sealed/ born at the time of this revelation to their leader(s) some time in the 1930’s. The Lord must come back before the last of the 144,000 dies,and the remaining must be in their 70’s or 80’s. Most, if not all, JW’s you meet will say they are not of the annointed class (and can not partake of the communion meal offered once yearly to the congregation), but will be part of the earth’s inhabitants, that Revelations does say will exist.It will be a new earth, a restored paradise, much like in the beginning with Adam and Eve.
 
pocohombre said:
Right. JW’s believe they are relegated to paradise on earth, not heaven. The 144,000 annointed were all sealed/ born at the time of this revelation to their leader(s) some time in the 1930’s. The Lord must come back before the last of the 144,000 dies,and the remaining must be in their 70’s or 80’s. Most, if not all, JW’s you meet will say they are not of the annointed class (and can not partake of the communion meal offered once yearly to the congregation), but will be part of the earth’s inhabitants, that Revelations does say will exist.It will be a new earth, a restored paradise, much like in the beginning with Adam and Eve.
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That is some contorted theology :rolleyes:
This is what happens when people declare or rather make up what they believe from a fundamental misunderstanding of the Bible. Then when the sect expands exponentially they are left with the cunundrum of what to tell them. Where are they going? What is their hope?
Man made traditions indeed :eek:

Peace!
 
They consider the 144,000 to be the “elect”, those that will rule over the Earth with Christ. Everyone else, who is a member of the “Organization” (JW’s) will live here on paradise Earth. They consider themselve to be the “other sheep” (Jn 10:16). The Church has always taught that Jesus was referring to the Gentiles as he was speaking to his Jewish following, who had always understood themselves to be the Chosen People of God. JW’s do not believe in “Hell”, they simply teach that those not in touch with his “Organization” will be destroyed and will cease to exist. (i.e. no immortal soul)

Interestingly, the JW’s take the number quite literally, but not the whole of the verse. If the description were taken literally, there would be only 144,000 Male, Jewish, Virgins. The average JW will attest to the symbolic language of many of the verses in Revelation; however, when you point out the location of “the great crowd”, many cannot see the truth.

I hope that this was ‘casual’ conversation, but it is some of their more difficult teachings so I am surprised if you heard it somewhere outside of a ‘book’ study?

Peace
 
WitnessSpouse said:
Interestingly, the JW’s take the number quite literally, but not the whole of the verse. If the description were taken literally, there would be only 144,000 Male, Jewish, Virgins. The average JW will attest to the symbolic language of many of the verses in Revelation; however, when you point out the location of “the great crowd”, many cannot see the truth.
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WS can you expound on this please.

Peace!!!
 
JerryZ said:
That is some contorted theology :rolleyes:
This is what happens when people declare or rather make up what they believe from a fundamental misunderstanding of the Bible. Then when the sect expands exponentially they are left with the cunundrum of what to tell them. Where are they going? What is their hope?
Man made traditions indeed :eek:

Peace!
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Yes,we discern and judge righteously,but let us be careful, there are a lot of 2x4’s floating around and could get caught in our eye.
 
adf417 said:
WS can you expound on this please.

Peace!!!
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Chapter 7 is the first mention of the 144,000. It describes them as coming from the Tribes of Israel. It also mentions a “great multitude” standing before the throne.

Rev 7

1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth,* holding back the four winds of the earth so that no wind could blow on land or sea or against any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel come up from the East,* holding the seal of the living God. He cried out in a loud voice to the four angels who were given power to damage the land and the sea, 3 “Do not damage the land or the sea or the trees until we put the seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 I heard the number of those who had been marked with the seal, one hundred and forty-four thousand marked* from every tribe of the Israelites: 5 twelve thousand were marked from the tribe of Judah,* twelve thousand from the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand from the tribe of Gad, 6 twelve thousand from the tribe of Asher, twelve thousand from the tribe of Naphtali, twelve thousand from the tribe of Manasseh, 7 twelve thousand from the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand from the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand from the tribe of Issachar, 8 twelve thousand from the tribe of Zebulun, twelve thousand from the tribe of Joseph, and twelve thousand were marked from the tribe of Benjamin.

9 After this I had a vision of a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation, race, people, and tongue. They stood before the throne and before the Lamb, wearing white robes and holding palm branches* in their hands.** 10 They cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation comes from* our God, who is seated on the throne,
and from the Lamb.”

Chapter 14 further describes the 144,000:

Rev 14:

They were singing [what seemed to be] a new hymn before the throne, before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn this hymn except the hundred and forty-four thousand who had been ransomed from the earth.
4 These are they who were not defiled with women; they are virgins and these are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They have been ransomed as the first fruits of the human race for God and the Lamb.
5 On their lips no deceit has been found; they are unblemished.

My apologies if is said that it was the same Chapter; however, the reference is obviously to the same group.

The reference to the multitude is obviously in the same chapter. And it obviously refers to them standing before the throne.

Hope this clears things up?
 
with this logic

It kind of like saying we should forgive

only 490 times…:confused:

[BIBLEDRB] Matthew 18:22[/BIBLEDRB]
 
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