In the beginning - science and religion

[kalt]

Do religion and evolution conflict?

Do you believe that Xianity and evolution are incompatible?

Does accepting evolution weaken faith in God? Strengthen faith in God?

Social Darwinism–a gross misuse of evolution theory–is it a condemnation of the theory or proof of humans’ capacity for cruelty?

I’m asking these questions to see how people of different religions view evolution. So if you could tell us what religion you are…

Does your religion take an official stance on evolution?

 

[hamba2han]

In order to show the inadequacies of science, why limit ourselves to just evolution?

For instance, can scientists explain why the world’s oceans and lakes do not dissapear into the ground like what presumably happened on Mars?

I do not think that there is to be found even a single hydrologist or geologist anywhere in the world who would be able to provide a scientifically-sound explanation as to why bodies of water on the surface of the planet like oceans and lakes are defying the laws of gravity and not seeping and dissapearing completely into the interior of the Earth.

And on a related note, everyone should have a look at this newly discovered mystery which once again affirms the fact that often science is simply unable to provide the answers to even the most fundamental questions concerning our existence vis-a-vis the world which we live in.

 

[kalt]

In order to show the inadequacies of science, why limit ourselves to just evolution?

For instance, can scientists explain why the world’s oceans and lakes do not dissapear into the ground like what presumably happened on Mars?

I do not think that there is to be found even a single hydrologist or geologist anywhere in the world who would be able to provide a scientifically-sound explanation as to why bodies of water on the surface of the planet like oceans and lakes are defying the laws of gravity and not seeping and dissapearing completely into the interior of the Earth.

And on a related note, everyone should have a look at this newly discovered mystery which once again affirms the fact that often science is simply unable to provide the answers to even the most fundamental questions concerning our existence vis-a-vis the world which we live in.

Well, it’s obvious that you have an ax to grind.

The “newly discovered mystery” is very interesting, but hardly proves that science is unable to provide answers.

Do you dismiss all science? If so, is that part of your religion?

 

[hamba2han]

Well, it’s obvious that you have an ax to grind.

The “newly discovered mystery” is very interesting, but hardly proves that science is unable to provide answers.

Do you dismiss all science? If so, is that part of your religion?

Actually, I have faith in BOTH Islam and Science.

And as far as I know, there has never been a situation where science has disproved the teachings of Islam.

BTW, Darwin’s “Theory of Evolution” is NOT science, it is pseudo-science.

 

[Angelos]

Actually, I have faith in BOTH Islam and Science.

And as far as I know, there has never been a situation where science has disproved the teachings of Islam.

BTW, Darwin’s “Theory of Evolution” is NOT science, it is pseudo-science.

The science detected by some Muslim scholars in the Koran is NOT science, but pseudo-science.

 

[mikew262]

IMO, science is man’s attempt to explain how God does it.

 

[dzheremi]

Do religion and evolution conflict?

No.

Do you believe that Xianity and evolution are incompatible?

No.

Does accepting evolution weaken faith in God? Strengthen faith in God?

Strengthens. Look at all the cool stuff God made via evolution!

Social Darwinism–a gross misuse of evolution theory–is it a condemnation of the theory or proof of humans’ capacity for cruelty?

It’s proof of human’s ability to grossly misuse other humans’ theory…

I’m asking these questions to see how people of different religions view evolution. So if you could tell us what religion you are…

Catholic.

Does your religion take an official stance on evolution?

We do not see a conflict between our religion and evolution. That is a Protestant Evangelical stance.

 

[cheddarsox]

Do religion and evolution conflict?

Do you believe that Xianity and evolution are incompatible?

Does accepting evolution weaken faith in God? Strengthen faith in God?

Social Darwinism–a gross misuse of evolution theory–is it a condemnation of the theory or proof of humans’ capacity for cruelty?

I’m asking these questions to see how people of different religions view evolution. So if you could tell us what religion you are…

Does your religion take an official stance on evolution?

Some religions are incompatible with evolution, but not all.

I think that accepting evolution weakens faiths in some types of deities. If a faith teaches about a deity that is very personally involved in each human’s life and creates situations in each human’s life, etc, then it is hard to understand that type of a loving personal relationship along with a deity who created a system like evolution. At least they don’t mesh in my mind.

I think that evolution clashes with the concept of the Christian god. It doesn’t fit with the other aspects that are attributed to him…all powerful, all knowing, all loving, etc.

Social Darwinism is about humans applying what they’ve witnessed in nature…using human will rather than impersonal nature to do the dirty work. Thus, human agenda will always “creep” in.

If we, as a species, overcome some of the ways that Nature once weeded us out, at some point we will have to find a way to weed ourselves out…or wait until Nature takes its course. And since humans tend to think they can do a better job if they are in control, they tend to want to take control.

The thing is, if we don’t weed ourselves out, or let nature weed us out now…we will become a society crushed under the weight of caring for it’s non functional members. At some point, something will give. If you look at it dualistically, it looks like it is an issue between humans and nature, but if you look at it realistically, humans are part of nature, and when a group feels threatened, they kill off another group and take their resources. That is how nature equipped us.

I don’t think there is any good answer for this, except to know that nature, one way or another, will take care of it.

I am a Natural Pantheist. I believe the Universe is the ultimate reality. At this point, based on the information we have, I would say that Nat Pans pretty much across the board support the idea of evolution as reality. But we are open to changing that stand if/when new information becomes known.

cheddar

 

[Lee_M]

I do not think that there is to be found even a single hydrologist or geologist anywhere in the world who would be able to provide a scientifically-sound explanation as to why bodies of water on the surface of the planet like oceans and lakes are defying the laws of gravity and not seeping and dissapearing completely into the interior of the Earth.

It’s called the hydrologic cycle and it is effected by permeability of soils and rocks and also with air pockets below the earth surface. This has been known for quite some time.

How things work are not always a mystery. It is how they just work together so perfectly that is the mystery. I believe that most science can actually support our religious beliefs. The theories I don’t agree with is that we are all here because of accident.

 

[Lee_M]

I think that evolution clashes with the concept of the Christian god. It doesn’t fit with the other aspects that are attributed to him…all powerful, all knowing, all loving, etc.

Why doesn’t it? Genesis says that God created the sea animals and birds first ,then the land animals and last, Man. Evolution does support that a lot of land animals actually evolved from sea animals and birds.

 

[kalt]

It’s called the hydrologic cycle and it is effected by permeability of soils and rocks and also with air pockets below the earth surface. This has been known for quite some time.

How things work are not always a mystery. It is how they just work together so perfectly that is the mystery. I believe that most science can actually support our religious beliefs. The theories I don’t agree with is that we are all here because of accident.

Do you believe that evolution is an accident?

I think that a lot of people have trouble accepting evolution and God together simply because they think of God as existing in time. Our experience of time.

God is eternal. God is.

People seem to have trouble understanding how evolution (which they see as accidental) and God’s creation are compatible because they forget that God doesn’t experience time as we do.

They would ask how God could have created us when he didn’t know how evolution would work out in the end (or until we appeared).

What?!

God is eternal. How could God not know what “will” happen, when He exists in eternity.

Eterninty, imo, doesn’t mean from now on. Or even from beginning to end. It means in all time. No beginning. No end.

What do the rest of you think?

 

[Ruthie]

I am a Catholic.

I am also a dog fancier. Over the past 10,000 years, more than 400 breeds of dogs have evolved, both through natural selection and deliberate selection on the part of humans. This shows me that, yes, evolution happens.

I would think, that if Darwin’s theory that new species evolved from old species were true, that in the past 10,000 years, we would have bred a new species, but we haven’t. The tiniest Chihuahua can interbreed with the biggest Irish Wolfhound (or with wolves and coyotes, for that matter) and produce fertile offspring. No new species.

From this, I believe that each species is a direct creation of God. Evolution occurs within species; we humans are in the process of losing our wisdom teeth, for example. But there is no proof that a given species evolved from a different one.

I am not closed to the idea that a new species might spring from a genetic mutation - but I don’t believe that it’s a mere accident that these “mutations” cannot interbreed and produce fertile offspring.

Thus I believe that we humans are indeed the descendants of the real Adam and Eve, which is in line with Catholic teaching.

I’m assuming that *species *is the right word - I can never remember zoological terminology!

I also believe that science itself is neutral. It is the uses to which it is put that make it moral or immoral. In its discoveries, science just tells us (as an earlier poster said) how God does it.

Ruthie

 

[kalt]

I am a Catholic.

I am also a dog fancier. Over the past 10,000 years, more than 400 breeds of dogs have evolved, both through natural selection and deliberate selection on the part of humans. This shows me that, yes, evolution happens.

I would think, that if Darwin’s theory that new species evolved from old species were true, that in the past 10,000 years, we would have bred a new species, but we haven’t. The tiniest Chihuahua can interbreed with the biggest Irish Wolfhound (or with wolves and coyotes, for that matter) and produce fertile offspring. No new species.

From this, I believe that each species is a direct creation of God. Evolution occurs within species; we humans are in the process of losing our wisdom teeth, for example. But there is no proof that a given species evolved from a different one.

I am not closed to the idea that a new species might spring from a genetic mutation - but I don’t believe that it’s a mere accident that these “mutations” cannot interbreed and produce fertile offspring.

Thus I believe that we humans are indeed the descendants of the real Adam and Eve, which is in line with Catholic teaching.

I’m assuming that *species *is the right word - I can never remember zoological terminology!

I also believe that science itself is neutral. It is the uses to which it is put that make it moral or immoral. In its discoveries, science just tells us (as an earlier poster said) how God does it.

Ruthie

How does this view account for the fossil record? Did God create species over billions of years? Do you think that God will create a new species again? In our lifetime?

 

[cheddarsox]

Why doesn’t it? Genesis says that God created the sea animals and birds first ,then the land animals and last, Man. Evolution does support that a lot of land animals actually evolved from sea animals and birds.

I don’t think that part clashes, but the parts where people say that the Christian God created the planet for humans to work out their salvation and relationship with him. And that he has a plan for each life, etc. I find that hard to reconcile with the billion years of life before humanity arose, and the plagues and natural occurances that regularly wipe out huge numbers of people.
I don’t understand how that fits into the personal plan he has for each individual.

Catholicism teaches about the value of each human life, but looking at nature and evolution, it looks like to nature, life is pretty cheap and expendable. Many mutations prove fatal, which is hard to reconcile with a perfect God who has each humans best interest at heart. If each individual soul is of uncountable importance, what of all the ones that played “expendable” parts along the way?

That is what seems to conflict in some Christian theologies, they teach that God values us above all things, that even if there was just one lost soul, Christ would have gone to the cross to save it, yet the majority of human experience and certainly evolution don’t seem in keeping with that sort of God.

Sometimes people seem to play both sides of the coin, saying “oh well, the ways of God are so above those of men…who are we to question.” which I can get behind, but then the same people will say “isn’t it wonderful how God spells it all out so we can understand and makes perfect sense and logic.”

Somewhere there is a conflict.

Evolution is astounding, effective, elegant, but not very loving and personal. It is not about individuals.It is not personal, and if this earthy life is just a testing ground for the real one that comes later (something I’ve often heard Christians preach) then evolution is a rather cruel and inefficient means of creating humanity…all that to get us here for a short life that according to many Christians is relatively unimportant and nothing we should get attached to.

but if you don’t experience any conflicts…that’s cool

 

[kalt]

I don’t think that part clashes, but the parts where people say that the Christian God created the planet for humans to work out their salvation and relationship with him. And that he has a plan for each life, etc. I find that hard to reconcile with the billion years of life before humanity arose, and the plagues and natural occurances that regularly wipe out huge numbers of people.
I don’t understand how that fits into the personal plan he has for each individual.

Catholicism teaches about the value of each human life, but looking at nature and evolution, it looks like to nature, life is pretty cheap and expendable. Many mutations prove fatal, which is hard to reconcile with a perfect God who has each humans best interest at heart. If each individual soul is of uncountable importance, what of all the ones that played “expendable” parts along the way?

That is what seems to conflict in some Christian theologies, they teach that God values us above all things, that even if there was just one lost soul, Christ would have gone to the cross to save it, yet the majority of human experience and certainly evolution don’t seem in keeping with that sort of God.

Sometimes people seem to play both sides of the coin, saying “oh well, the ways of God are so above those of men…who are we to question.” which I can get behind, but then the same people will say “isn’t it wonderful how God spells it all out so we can understand and makes perfect sense and logic.”

Somewhere there is a conflict.

Evolution is astounding, effective, elegant, but not very loving and personal. It is not about individuals.It is not personal, and if this earthy life is just a testing ground for the real one that comes later (something I’ve often heard Christians preach) then evolution is a rather cruel and inefficient means of creating humanity…all that to get us here for a short life that according to many Christians is relatively unimportant and nothing we should get attached to.

but if you don’t experience any conflicts…that’s cool

Many Christians have a problem with this, too. That’s why they reject evolution. It’s not that there isn’t ample proof of evolution, or that evolution is wrong. They’re not even interested in being right. They’re interested in being comfortable with their religious beliefs about science. Weird, huh?

And many sceintists and non-believers have a problem w/ the Christian God, too, because they’ve heard only what those who are opposed to evolution science have to say about God. One of their arguments against evolution is exactly your argument against God–that a loving God couldn’t have allowed for evolution, because evolution would be cruel.

Says who, though? Who says evolution is cruel? Who says that God guarantees and easy life? For any species or for any individual?

Knowing that God doesn’t guarantee an easy life, how does what both sides describe disprove God or evolution?

 

[cheddarsox]

Many Christians have a problem with this, too. That’s why they reject evolution. It’s not that there isn’t ample proof of evolution, or that evolution is wrong. They’re not even interested in being right. They’re interested in being comfortable with their religious beliefs about science. Weird, huh?

And many sceintists and non-believers have a problem w/ the Christian God, too, because they’ve heard only what those who are opposed to evolution science have to say about God. One of their arguments against evolution is exactly your argument against God–that a loving God couldn’t have allowed for evolution, because evolution would be cruel.

Says who, though? Who says evolution is cruel? Who says that God guarantees and easy life? For any species or for any individual?

Knowing that God doesn’t guarantee an easy life, how does what both sides describe disprove God or evolution?

*I *didn’t provide an argument against God. I stated what appears to me to be conflicts in what his own people say about him.

Nor do I think evolution is cruel. Cruelty implies intent to cause suffering. I do not think there is a sentient intent to cause suffering behind evolution.

What I am pointing out, as the OP requested is a conflict between how Christians themselves describe their God, and what evidence and experience indicate about a higher power.

I don’t think anyone has evidence to disprove God or evolution.

However, somewhere there IS a conflict, I expect it is, as you suggest in the theology. People want their deity to be…as they want it to be, rather than as it is.

Just yesterday, on another religious forum, a teen girl was asking people to supply her with the names of religions that met her criteria and would make her happy and comfortable and validate everything she believed in. She had no interest in growth or truth, just in having others tell her what she believes is “ok”.

People have used all manner of mental and emotional machinations to “explain” why God IS one way, and SEEMS to be another.

There is not a conflict in my religion between what IS, and well…what is. We don’t use the term “god” because in my culture, that term refers to the personal deity that is followed by the Abrahamic religions, so using it would cause confusion concerning our beliefs.

We believe in ultimate reality as it presents itself, without assigning human feelings and motivations to its actions. We respect that it owes us no explanations and that we, as finite beings are probably not capable of truly understanding its doings.

I don’t really “have a problem” with the Christian God. I don’t think that, as described by most Christians, it is real. So either the people are wrong, or their deity is fantasy. I don’t know which.

There is an ultimate reality and a higher power. It is NOT as most Christians describe it. I guess the question for me is who is responsible for the gap between reality and theology. I think it is the desires of humans…for security, eternity, assurances and power.

 

[tommiatkins]

For instance, can scientists explain why the world’s oceans and lakes do not dissapear into the ground like what presumably happened on Mars?

.

Sure can.
Lighter elements are gravitated towards the outer layers. Air, water, rock, metals in order. Hence the sky is above the land, and the core of the earth below the rock. Pretty simple.

The writers of the bible thought it would be cool to have a layer of water above the air, as described in genisis. Modern apologists decided that in ancient times this would have been a layer of ice.
It’s a nuts theory and breaks down at every level.

The water on mars, discovered last week, is due to a completly different planetary structure, and the orbital bombardment and subsequent cooling.
Nothing to see here, move along.

 

[hamba2han]

Sure can.
Lighter elements are gravitated towards the outer layers. Air, water, rock, metals in order. Hence the sky is above the land, and the core of the earth below the rock. Pretty simple.

The writers of the bible thought it would be cool to have a layer of water above the air, as described in genisis. Modern apologists decided that in ancient times this would have been a layer of ice.
It’s a nuts theory and breaks down at every level.

The water on mars, discovered last week, is due to a completly different planetary structure, and the orbital bombardment and subsequent cooling.
Nothing to see here, move along.

Don’t we have a thing called ‘continental drift’ and also earthquakes constantly occuring which breaks up the sea-floor?

Are there not faults, chasms, fissures, crevices, and pinnacles on the sea floor?

Why is the water in the oceans defying the law of gravity by not seeping down into the Earth’s interior through these kind of openings in the sea-floor?

 

[tommiatkins]

Don’t we have a thing called ‘continental drift’ and also earthquakes constantly occuring which breaks up the sea-floor?

Are there not faults, chasms, fissures, crevices, and pinnacles on the sea floor?

Why is the water in the oceans defying the law of gravity by not seeping down into the Earth’s interior through these kind of openings in the sea-floor?

Internal pressure.
Really matey, I did this 20 years ago in geology. Theres no need to look for supernatural answers to natural questions.

Just google it

 

[hamba2han]

Internal pressure.
Really matey, I did this 20 years ago in geology. Theres no need to look for supernatural answers to natural questions.

Just google it

With all due respect, the study of geology is not that dissimilar to the study of evolution when it comes to speculating on the probable cause of things which are pretty much unknown to those putting forward their theories.

I mean, how do geologists know that the internal structure of the planet Mars is different from that of Earth?

Is there a reason why the geological structures of Mars and Earth should be so significantly different?

BTW, these are rhetorical questions and no one should feel compelled to answer them.