In the debate between Karl Keating and INC?

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In the debate between Karl Keating and INC, there was a point where the INC minister was questioning how can Peter also be the foundation stone of the Church when in the Bible it was written in 1 Corinthian 3 verse 11, “For God has already placed Jesus Christ as the one and only foundation” what do you should have been Karl Keating’s reply?
 
In the debate between Karl Keating and INC, there was a point where the INC minister was questioning how can Peter also be the foundation stone of the Church when in the Bible it was written in 1 Corinthian 3 verse 11, “For God has already placed Jesus Christ as the one and only foundation” what do you should have been Karl Keating’s reply?
Doesn’t Christ also mention that the Apostles are the foundation.

All authority has been given to me, go therefore…

BTW, what was Karl Keating’s answer?
 
Doesn’t Christ also mention that the Apostles are the foundation.

All authority has been given to me, go therefore…

BTW, what was Karl Keating’s answer?
I’m sorry. Matthew 28:18-20

Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.*** 19 ****** Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,****** 20 ****** teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."***
 
1 Cor 3:10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. 3:11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 3:12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw --3:13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort

If you read the whole context containing these verses, you’ll see that St. Paul is not talking about the visible institution of the Church (founded by Jesus); he is talking about the **foundation of our **personal **faith **-- whom do we believe is our Saviour, the “Messiah”, the God whom we must seek to please, etc.
The foundation on whom our faith must be solidly based is Jesus. (We do not believe Peter is God, that he can save us, etc.)

St Peter and the apostles are the ones that Jesus appointed to be the **foundation of the Church **He established. Peter was appointed to be head of this magisterium (cf Mt 16:18). Jesus is called the cornerstone of this foundation.

Eph 2:19-20 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the **foundation of the apostles **and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,

Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them the twelve names of the** twelve apostles of the Lamb. **

So, in summary:
**The foundation of our faith **is Jesus;
**The foundation of His Church **is Peter (papacy) in union with the other apostles – the Magisterium. (Jesus is the cornerstone of this foundation, which is a guarantee of it’s solidity.)
 
I cannot understand Karl Keating answer,please watch the video here:

part 1- video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2953664829520280607&hl=en

part 2 - video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1936905102193057313&hl=en

and by the way, could you give the chapter and verse of the words you quoted from the bible?
The video clearly shows that the INC are heretics big time, not believing first of all in the divinity of Christ. Karl tears apart their authority and INC falsehoods all crumble from there.

The INC simply try to win by being rude, interrupting, and making it a shouting match, feeding his mind-numbed drones the same false doctrine that they have come to know, and their twisted reasoning and destructive beliefs.

They all drink the leader’s kool aid… it’s like watching old news footage of Jonestown where all the people are brainwashed.

Kudos Karl for going int hat hostile environment and standing up for truth who is Jesus the Christ, only begotten Son of the Living God.
 
yes, actually Iglesia Ni Cristo is a commercial corporation(posing asa religion) registered in the Securities and Exchange Commission. It is funny that it is not God’s Holy Spirit that’s guiding them, rather it is the Securities and Exchange Commission.

And they kill anyone who opposes them without fear of prosecution. Their ministers are known for using violence everytime they are starting to lose the debate, also without fear of prosecution, considering they have infiltrated the police and some positions in the governent. They also bully court justices to favor them in court litigation. They also used the politicians who owe votes to them or seeking to win their “bloc-voting”.

I think Karl Keating must come here in the Philippines and help the Catholic defenders here like for sharing his knowledge in seminars conducted by these catholic apologists. These Iglesia ni Cristo people must be stopped!!!
 
hello everyone, i’m a new member in this site, God bless us all
 
Karl Keating loose in that debate. If you observe him? ohhhh. a poor one, very tense and i am worried about him when i watching him in the video, i think he will just walk out in that event. tsk. tsk. hehe
 
Karl Keating loose in that debate. If you observe him? ohhhh. a poor one, very tense and i am worried about him when i watching him in the video, i think he will just walk out in that event. tsk. tsk. hehe
Only the ignorant or brainwashed by these INC tactics would say that Karl “lost” the debate. When you espouse truth, as Karl did, you can’t lose a debate. The INC are nothing but lies, and so will always lose.
 
i can’t believe Karl even debated with them. He was accused of not using scripture references just because his references were type on paper rather than opening up the bible itself to find references. Karl was asked to answer questions which he did yet the opposition refused to and resorted to a screaming and yelling as though it makes his argument more valid. he said that St Ignatius invented the phrase “Catholic Church” as though he invented something new. Yet, it was St Ignatius that had known the Apostle John and been acquainted with his teachings. I guess the same writer of the scriptures taught heretical teachings to the point where his own follower created an apostate Church. At least that the only logical inference I can deduce from the oppositions argument.
 
i can’t believe Karl even debated with them. He was accused of not using scripture references just because his references were type on paper rather than opening up the bible itself to find references. Karl was asked to answer questions which he did yet the opposition refused to and resorted to a screaming and yelling as though it makes his argument more valid. he said that St Ignatius invented the phrase “Catholic Church” as though he invented something new. Yet, it was St Ignatius that had known the Apostle John and been acquainted with his teachings. I guess the same writer of the scriptures taught heretical teachings to the point where his own follower created an apostate Church. At least that the only logical inference I can deduce from the oppositions argument.
Yes, the reasonable person viewing this would see that the INC are extreme heretics, and try to shout down anyone who does oppose them. It’s INC thuggery and arrogance.
 
In the debate between Karl Keating and INC, there was a point where the INC minister was questioning how can Peter also be the foundation stone of the Church when in the Bible it was written in 1 Corinthian 3 verse 11, “For God has already placed Jesus Christ as the one and only foundation” what do you should have been Karl Keating’s reply?
Matthew 16:18 – Peter the Rock
Understanding the Use of Metaphor in the New Testament

Matthew 16:18-20 (NIV)
18
And I tell you that you are Peter,a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." 20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

a] Peter means rock.

Many non-Catholics object to the idea that Peter was the rock upon which Jesus promised to build the Church, and they offer various alternative interpretations of the rock as being Jesus himself, Peter’s confession of faith, and the curious hybrid Peter and his confession. To support their denial of Jesus’ establishment of Peter as the head of the Church, non-Catholics frequently cite other scripture passages in which Jesus is called the “chief cornerstone” and the apostles collectively being described as foundation stones. These arguments are based upon a misunderstanding of the use of metaphors within the pages of scripture. Author Stephen Ray, himself a former Evangelical and convert to Catholicism, addressed this problem in his book, Upon This Rock:

“In this metaphorical description, Jesus himself could not be the foundation, because in this illustration he presents himself as the builder. The following is very important. In Scripture Jesus is variously depicted as the foundation (1 Cor. 3:11), the builder (Mt. 16:18), the cornerstone (Acts 4:11), and the temple itself (Rev. 21:22). We also see the apostles and/or believers as the foundation (Eph. 2:20, Rev. 21:14), the builders (1 Cor. 3:10), the stones, lithos, not petra (1 Pet. 2:5), the building (1 Cor. 3:9), and the temple (Eph. 2:21). Many illustrative are used to explain various aspects of the Church. One cannot simply substitute one descriptive figure of speech for another in any one illustration thereby mixing metaphors. It does great violence to the textual illustration itself and is a good example of roughshod “proof-texting”, wrongly “dividing the word of truth” (2 Tim. 2:15). The Bible does not set up a dichotomy—either Jesus or Peter; rather, it presents us with both Jesus and Peter as foundation stones. Jesus is establishing the man who will be the focal point of unity within the Church, the foundation. He who builds upon sand has a structure that crumbles (Mt. 7:24-27). Jesus builds his Church upon the rock of his choice, and, by his protection, the Church has stood the test of time. The powers of hell have failed to destroy or corrupt her” (Stephen Ray, Upon this Rock, [San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1999], 36.)

In this same book, Ray also cites Protestant George Salmon, author of The Infallibility of the Church which he wrote to undermine the teachings of the Catholic Church. On the matter of metaphorical usage, Salmon wrote at length:

“It is undoubtedly the doctrine of Scripture that Christ is the only foundation [of the Church]: “other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ” (1 Cor. 3:11). Yet we must remember that the same metaphor may be used to illustrate different truths, and so, according to circumstances, may have different significations. The same Paul who has called Christ the only foundation, tells his Ephesian converts (2:20):—“Ye are built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone.” And in like manner we read (Rev. 21:14):—“The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them the names of the twelve Apostles of the Lamb.” How is it that there can be no other foundation but Christ, and yet that the Apostles are spoken of as foundations? Plainly, because the metaphor is used with different applications. Christ alone is that foundation, from being joined to which the whole building of the Church derives its unity and stability, and gains strength to defy all the assaults of hell. But, in the same manner as any human institution is said to be founded by those men to whom it owes its origin, so we may call those men the foundation of the Church whom God honoured by using them as His instruments in the establishment of it; who were themselves laid as the first living stones in that holy temple, and on whom the other stones of that temple were laid; for it was on their testimony that others received the truth, so that our faith rests on theirs; and (humanly speaking) it is because they believed that we believe. So, again, in like manner, we are forbidden to call anyone on earth our Father, “for one is our Father which is in heaven.” And yet, in another sense, Paul did not scruple to call himself the spiritual father of those whom he had begotten in the Gospel. You see, then, that the fact that Christ is called the rock, and that on Him the Church is built, is no hindrance to Peter’s also being, in a different sense, called rock, and being said to be the foundation of the Church; so that I consider there is no ground for the fear entertained by some, in ancient and in modern times, that, by applying the words personally to Peter, we should infringe on the honour due to Christ alone.” (George Salmon, The Infallibility of the Church [London: John Murray, 1914], 338-339).
 
Karl Keating loose in that debate. If you observe him? ohhhh. a poor one, very tense and i am worried about him when i watching him in the video, i think he will just walk out in that event. tsk. tsk. hehe
Interesting.

Perhaps you would like to provide a specific example from the debate that you feel Karl Keating was beaten on?
 
And they** kill **anyone who opposes them without fear of prosecution.
:eek::eek::eek: That’s quite a claim. You need evidence for that…
hi … i’m new here too … and i hate INC because they abducted my girlfriend … 🙂
I can only hope you didn’t mean “abducted” literally. And why the smiley-face? :confused:
 
Only the ignorant or brainwashed by these INC tactics would say that Karl “lost” the debate. When you espouse truth, as Karl did, you can’t lose a debate.
This is a naive view of how debating works. Assuming you are trying to win over members of an audience and convince them of your position, the manner of presentation of facts is very important.

There is another reason your theory about debating is incorrect. Assuming that everything Karl stated was factually correct, it’s still the case that he only argued part of the truth. Why? Because his knowledge of the truth is incomplete, and his time to present his argument is not infinite.
 
In the debate between Karl Keating and INC, there was a point where the INC minister was questioning how can Peter also be the foundation stone of the Church when in the Bible it was written in 1 Corinthian 3 verse 11, “For God has already placed Jesus Christ as the one and only foundation” what do you should have been Karl Keating’s reply?
First of all, INC totally is context swapping. In Matthew 16:18 Jesus is speaking of building the Church – and who is greater, he who builds or that which is built?

Look again at 1Cor 3:11 – The word “church” is nowhere to be found. A building (unspecified) is being built – and who lays the foundation? PAUL.

Church - ek-klesia – is the out calling; it is not a building or a physical temple alone.
In each of the passages cited, Keating had the right to ask them to show the RELEVANCY of the passage with regard to the Church (singular). St. Paul was not a builder until long after the church was already founded, how is it then – that a foundation Paul lays can be said to be the ultimate foundation of the Church?

How old are these debates, anyway? Keating appears younger than in some pictures I saw a few weeks back. These are perhaps 10 years old or so?

–Andrew.
 
In the first question period (rebutle), the questioner does not address any of the topics of the argument. Instead he begins to lay the groundwork for his argument. Thus he did not rebutle and then agrees with the position that was given. Silence gives consent.
The initial INC presentation is very flawed. Just because a person does not open a Bible does not mean that they are not basing their position on it. For example I can assert that Jesus is the Christ of Israel without making a particular referance to a scripture.
His arguments are exceptionally poor.
I am suprised how poorly Keating handled himself.
The second question period Keating presents himself very well. The answer of the defender is actually very poor. He picks what translation he wants to use when.
 
I find the INC gentleman to be very poorly representing his own position. From a psychology point of view he is using brainwashing technique.
 
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