In the end, why does this all matter?

[RollTide1987]

Okay…so I’m still in a debate with my Protestant friend, and he brought this question up a couple of days ago. The question was: Why does it matter? He is of the opinion that we spend too much time arguing doctrine and not enough time focusing on the thing that really matters - our relationship with Christ. If I am a person who is trying to convert this Protestant over to the Catholic Church, and believe me it can be done, how do I counter this? Is there a way of countering this?

 

[sirach2v4]

In the parable of the sower, Jesus showed that the seed is the Word of God and it sometimes falls on shallow soil or among thorns or is trampled on, and does not prosper.

We know that Christ is the Victor and that we have already won the battle over sin and death. Perhaps this is just a “time out” in the discussion with your friend. Pray for him/her and let the Spirit take over. Remember, God is in charge. No one comes to the Son except that the father calls him.

Pray and be joyful.

 

[adf417]

In the end he could be right which is why the Catholic Church will never have apologetics or debate as its main focus whereas ministries like this…
catholiccharitiesusa.org/ will always be the focus. But it doesn’t mean we should stop defending the faith.

Peace!!!

 

[Della]

Okay…so I’m still in a debate with my Protestant friend, and he brought this question up a couple of days ago. The question was: Why does it matter? He is of the opinion that we spend too much time arguing doctrine and not enough time focusing on the thing that really matters - our relationship with Christ. If I am a person who is trying to convert this Protestant over to the Catholic Church, and believe me it can be done, how do I counter this? Is there a way of countering this?

Doctrine/dogma matter because they tell us truths about Christ, his redemption of the world, and who he is. Your Protestant friend probably has little to no understanding of Christian history. History for him started whenever his faith community was founded–in rebellion from the Church. He’s probably never heard of the Church councils that, down through the centuries, settled such matters as the nature of Christ, the definition of the Trinity, and so on. Without the Church decidinig such matters your friend would not be a Christian at all and thus have no relationship with Christ. Who Jesus was/is is vital to having a relationship with him. If Jesus isn’t true God and true man then he could not have redeemed anyone and we’d all be lost in our sins. It was the Church that prayed, discussed and decided that doctrine that his Protestant faith community accepts without question not realizing that they accept this teaching, and many others, because the Church clarified and defined them.

 

[Nita]

It matters because “truth” matters.
It matters because “Jesus” matters.
Jesus is Truth.
To know the truth more accurately and deeply is to know Jesus more accurately and deeply.

 

[TimothyH]

It matters because we don’t want to make a mistake and burn in Hell.

Okay…so I’m still in a debate with my Protestant friend, and he brought this question up a couple of days ago. The question was: Why does it matter? He is of the opinion that we spend too much time arguing doctrine and not enough time focusing on the thing that really matters - our relationship with Christ. If I am a person who is trying to convert this Protestant over to the Catholic Church, and believe me it can be done, how do I counter this? Is there a way of countering this?

Catholics are not supposed to proselytize. We are not supposed to be trying to convert people. We are supposed to evangelize - invite. We are not supposed to proselytize - attempt conversion.

-Tim-

 

[Joe_5859]

Catholics are not supposed to proselytize. We are not supposed to be trying to convert people. We are supposed to evangelize - invite. We are not supposed to proselytize - attempt conversion.

-Tim-

That jumped out at me, too. We want to be sure we are proposing the truth in love rather than scoring points and winning arguments.

That said, doctrine matters because we cannot reasonably be expected to develop a relationship with Jesus without being clear on the details of who He is and what He has done for us / is doing for us.

You cannot dismiss the details of doctrine and expect it not to effect your relationship with Christ. It would be like trying to improve your relationship with a significant other while simultaneously refusing to learn more about them. it doesn’t work that way.

 

[Emily2014]

Can’t help agreeing with your friend as am personally fed up with the apparently unremitting focus upon sin in almost every thread.
Offer your friend the unfailing, unique Love of our Living God. Tell him all the special things which keep you in the Church.God bless you both

 

[simpleas]

I think your friend is on the right track about having a relationship with Christ and reflecting that on others, we do worry over much of our sins and if we are doing A.B or C correctly. What about our connection with God? If we never actually feel, know, realise that God is living how can we change into better people? Just following doctrine and listening to others might make us think we know God, but if there is no experience of God there is no conversion, IMO.

 

[Della]

The problem lies in denying doctrine for the sake of relationship, whatever that might mean to the one who relies solely on relationship. If we do not have sound doctrine we are not worshipping Christ, but a person of our own imagining. It’s great to have a relationship with Christ, and must be encouraged, but it is far too easy for us to deceive ourselves into thinking we don’t need doctrine and so fall away from a relationship with the real Jesus Christ.

 

[COPLAND_3]

I think people spend entirely way too much time trying to argue doctrine because of pride rather than love. Doctrine matters, otherwise truth becomes relative and faith is based upon feelings and not truth. I must say that now that I am a Catholic I am much more content than when I was a Baptist because now my faith is written in stone and no longer based upon some preacher’s interpretations. When the world sees all the disunity among protestant denominations they see Christians not agreeing about what they believe. That’s a stumbling block!

 

[Neofight]

Okay…so I’m still in a debate with my Protestant friend, and he brought this question up a couple of days ago. The question was: Why does it matter? He is of the opinion that we spend too much time arguing doctrine and not enough time focusing on the thing that really matters - our relationship with Christ. If I am a person who is trying to convert this Protestant over to the Catholic Church, and believe me it can be done, how do I counter this? Is there a way of countering this?

Your protestant friend might not realize it, or if he does, might not admit it, but the protestant churches focus as heavily on doctrine as the Catholic Church does.

The problem is, doctrine for many protestant (especially non-denominational) is all over the place. When an non-denominationalist doesn’t like the doctrine espoused by his pastor, the congregation either boots the pastor, or more commonly, split off an form their own church.

It is this moving target of doctrine that is the reason for 30,000 protestant denominations (most of which claim are “non” denominational…closer to reality, is the fact that they are quite denominational, but the denominations are very small.

 

[chimo]

Okay…so I’m still in a debate with my Protestant friend, and he brought this question up a couple of days ago. The question was: Why does it matter? He is of the opinion that we spend too much time arguing doctrine and not enough time focusing on the thing that really matters - our relationship with Christ. If I am a person who is trying to convert this Protestant over to the Catholic Church, and believe me it can be done, how do I counter this? Is there a way of countering this?

I think your friend has a major point. Why don’t you do the same. Since your friend does not know Catholic doctrine why don’t you warm up to him by talking more what he knows. In this way you will get more of his attention. Once you receive this than you are more opened to discuss what you will like to discuss.

 

[bmonk]

Why does it matter?

The truth is, we should be focusing on our relationship with Christ.

Often we get sidetracked into doctrines and practices, but they can matter too.

For example, a Protestant invites a Catholic to a personal relationship with Jesus as Lord and Savior, so that the Catholic can be saved. But (in theory), the Catholic already has a personal relationship, and is saved (in a state of grace) and in fact is even more intimately related with Christ through the Sacraments, by which the Catholic is not just personally related with Christ, but receives Christ and becomes a member of the Body of Christ!

In this case, explaining the doctrines of the Sacraments, of salvation and grace, of the Body of Christ (the Real Presence and the Mystical Body, the Church) are all important to help the Protestant come to a fuller understanding, and perhaps enter into a deeper relationship with Christ himself.

Or perhaps the Protestant sees John 6 speaking of “feeding on the Flesh of the Son of Man” as hearing the word preached and reflecting on it in prayer. And in turn ridicules Catholics for our worship of an idolatrous “cracker.” Again, our doctrine of the Eucharist and the Real Presence may offer a truer understanding.

It matters for much the same reasons that these doctrines were developed in the first place–it’s not because we enjoy fighting and alienating people, but because the errors were leading people astray, and we needed the doctrines to end the fighting!

 

[JRKH]

Okay…so I’m still in a debate with my Protestant friend, and he brought this question up a couple of days ago. The question was: Why does it matter? He is of the opinion that we spend too much time arguing doctrine and not enough time focusing on the thing that really matters - our relationship with Christ. If I am a person who is trying to convert this Protestant over to the Catholic Church, and believe me it can be done, how do I counter this? Is there a way of countering this?

My counter is this…

We discuss and debate (argue if he likes that word) doctrine and practice precisely BECAUSE we are focusing on our relationship with Christ.
We are seeking to be ever more one with one another so that we may fulfill Jesus prayer that we be one as He and the Father are one.

Things like “relationship with Jesus” or “faith alone” or “WWJD” “just believe” are all fine and good, but they are little more than “bumper sticker” theology. It’s easy to toss out there, and sound oh so nice, but will quickly come apart when subject to a bit of probing.

Ask Him what exactly it means to focus on our relationship with Christ?
Then probe his answer just a bit with “how” questions.

I can guarantee you that the conversation that will flow from this simple question will lead you right back to discussing doctrine.

The simple reason is that when one starts to “focus on our relationship with Christ” it’s going to lead to many very important things. Like what do the Gospels say - what Are Jesus teachings - What does it mean to believe - what is faith and many more subjects.

Peace
James

 

[TheDoors]

Tell him he’s right and, in the spirit of ignoring differences in doctorine, see if he’ll start attending church with you.

 

[JRKH]

Can’t help agreeing with your friend as am personally fed up with the apparently unremitting focus upon sin in almost every thread.
Offer your friend the unfailing, unique Love of our Living God. Tell him all the special things which keep you in the Church.God bless you both

Threads about sin are not the same thing as arguing doctrine…
That said I agree with your second comment.
Of course we don’t know that the OP is NOT doing this already…

I think your friend is on the right track about having a relationship with Christ and reflecting that on others, we do worry over much of our sins and if we are doing A.B or C correctly.

Again - the OP said nothing about arguing sin…the friend says we argue too much doctrine

What about our connection with God? If we never actually feel, know, realize that God is living how can we change into better people? Just following doctrine and listening to others might make us think we know God, but if there is no experience of God there is no conversion, IMO.

Well said…
But doctrine does serve a purpose…It keeps us on the right path TO God. Sometimes our focus can get skewed…but that is not the fault of the doctrine. I suspect that is what you are driving at here.

Peace
James

 

[MarkInOregon]

Okay…so I’m still in a debate with my Protestant friend, and he brought this question up a couple of days ago. The question was: Why does it matter? He is of the opinion that we spend too much time arguing doctrine and not enough time focusing on the thing that really matters - our relationship with Christ. If I am a person who is trying to convert this Protestant over to the Catholic Church, and believe me it can be done, how do I counter this? Is there a way of countering this?

In a way Jesus didn’t command us to have a relationship with him but rather to repent, to take up our cross and follow him, to do the will of his Father, to love one another–that said I think in order to truly do this well we have to have a relationship with Jesus. And if the truth be told we do all have a relationship with Jesus–the question really is what kind of relationship do we have with Jesus. Is it a good one?, a bad one?, an on again off again one? Relationships run the gamut–it is not having a relationship with Jesus that is important, but rather the type of relationship.

Can we really have a good relationship with Jesus–which I believe would be evidenced by our repenting, taking up our cross, following him, doing the will of his Father and loving one another–if we don’t know what it means to do those things? Doctrine is one way we know the will of the Father --if we don’t know the will of the Father we can’t do his will–and thus our relationship with Jesus is less than it could and should be. Lets just take one issue where you two are probably divided–contraception. Your friend probably thinks it is not a big deal but yet–if Catholics are right and he is wrong and is using contraception–then he is doing something contrary to the will of the Father and that impairs his relationship with Christ–which he claims is of the first importance. Or lets take a look at communion–something Christ commanded us to do in memory of him–how often does his church celebrate it? If they are not doing it every week–what does it say about the nature of their relationship with Christ–when they don’t often do a very simple thing he commanded us to do? Is the relationship on Christs terms or on their terms?

I have not said the above very well–hopefully the gist of what I am trying to say has come through. I’d say that by being a part of the Church Christ founded, listening to the teachings handed down from the apostles through the ages–we are attempting to have a relationship with Christ on his terms–the dogma’s help us to do that by showing us the will of the Father in those matters.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[Mystophilus]

Tell him he’s right and, in the spirit of ignoring differences in doctorine, see if he’ll start attending church with you.

Indeed!
:clapping:

 

[Mystophilus]

Okay…so I’m still in a debate with my Protestant friend, and he brought this question up a couple of days ago. The question was: Why does it matter? He is of the opinion that we spend too much time arguing doctrine and not enough time focusing on the thing that really matters - our relationship with Christ. If I am a person who is trying to convert this Protestant over to the Catholic Church, and believe me it can be done, how do I counter this? Is there a way of countering this?

There is only if he is willing to hear it. You cannot change the way in which someone thinks (well, not by methods which do not violate international law, anyway); you can only give them the opportunity to change their own minds.