In the Roman Catholic Church, is the "presence" of the Church as a witness absolutely necessary for the valid, sacramental marriage between two Cathol

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I’m looking for an answer concerning the nature of the Sacrament of Matrimony.

Given that two unmarried Catholics find themselves in a situation in which no priest, deacon, or any others whatsoever can be called to witness, can those two Catholics really and validly confer the Sacrament of Matrimony upon each other?

Canon 1116 and the Catechism do shed some light on the question, but as to the lack of any witness whatsoever, I have been unable to find an answer from the Roman Catholic documents.

My best guess currently is that the two Catholics can really and validly confer the Sacrament upon each other, since in normal circumstances the priest or deacon is not the minister of the Sacrament but rather a witness.
 
Chris258 said:
I’m looking for an answer concerning the nature of the Sacrament of Matrimony.

Given that two unmarried Catholics find themselves in a situation in which no priest, deacon, or any others whatsoever can be called to witness, can those two Catholics really and validly confer the Sacrament of Matrimony upon each other?

Canon 1116 and the Catechism do shed some light on the question, but as to the lack of any witness whatsoever, I have been unable to find an answer from the Roman Catholic documents.

My best guess currently is that the two Catholics can really and validly confer the Sacrament upon each other, since in normal circumstances the priest or deacon is not the minister of the Sacrament but rather a witness.
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I believe you are correct, in a true emergency. For example, in a country where the Church is persecuted and there are no priests or deacons available. However, in most cases it should be possible to get some witness. Unless we’re talking about some bizarre “desert island” scenario. But, I don’t know the documents.

God Bless
 
It is a rather bizarre situation to contemplate, but I think it’s helpful for finding an answer to the underlying question about the Sacrament.

If we’re even able to come to a solid conclusion on this question, I must wonder how the Church would view the outcome differently (if at all) if it were a Catholic and baptized non-Catholic, two baptized non-Catholics, or even two non-Christians in the scenario.
 
As A priest I can tell you that I have not had this situation come up very often. However it is possable. Especially when permission is given by the church to have the Sacrament in a non Catholic Church say for reason that the brides Dad is a Baptist minister in some town far away from my parish.
Permission can be given for almost anything when it comes to marrage these days. (between a man and a woman that is ha ha ha )
 
My understanding is that the Bride and Bridegroom are the ministers of the sacrament. The need for the priest and witnesses are a matter of canonical form that the Catholics are bound to obedience to follow.
 
JMMK said:
My understanding is that the Bride and Bridegroom are the ministers of the sacrament. The need for the priest and witnesses are a matter of canonical form that the Catholics are bound to obedience to follow.
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So to answer the OP, a couple could validly (though illicitly) marry without a Church witness?
 
Marriage doesn’t take place in a vacuum (except in the desert island scenario). It takes place within the Christian community and the greater society. It isn’t just a private contract. So, if possible, there should be witnesses.
 
Digitonomy said:
So to answer the OP, a couple could validly (though illicitly) marry without a Church witness?
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Not if one was Catholic (except on the desert island). Without the church witness or a dispensation it would be invalid as well as illicit.

The Catholic church considers a marriage by non-Catholics as valid. If they are baptized, it is also sacramental. But the question is: are vows said privately, without witnesses, and not before a religious or civil representative, considered a marriage? It would not be a legal marriage. Is there a reason that the Catholic church would or should consider a non-legal marriage valid??
 
Claire_from_DE said:
But the question is: are vows said privately, without witnesses, and not before a religious or civil representative, considered a marriage? It would not be a legal marriage. Is there a reason that the Catholic church would or should consider a non-legal marriage valid??
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Are you suggesting the blessing of the state is necessary for validity of a sacrament? There are certainly cases where the Church recognizes non-legal marriages, in situations where the parties are properly disposed to receive the sacrament but prohibited by secular law. The key question is not what the state may have to say about the matter, but whether a Church witness is more than just required for proper form and licity, but is in fact essential to the validity of the sacrament in all but extraordinary circumstances.
 
The Church recognizes marriage as a social construct of Divine origin. As such the bride and bridegroom must adhere to the laws, either social or canonical depending on affiliation; hence why what would be a valid, sacramental marriage between two baptists might not be valid for Catholics.

In the rare case of total isolation (i.e. desert island) it might, might, be considered valid if the couple intends to have such marriage recognized by the Church.

I’m no canon lawyer, nor do I speak on behalf of the Church. This is just what I’ve understood from my studies.
 
Is it possible for a Catholic Church sanctuary to not have a roof on it?

I ask because some of Frank Lloyd Wright’s architecture is to where you can’t really tell when you’re totally inside a house or outside of it.

Would it be possible to make a Catholic Church the same way–could you have retractable walls and a retractable roof–they make sports stadiums like that.

I guess what I’m imagining is a Catholic Church directly on top of some tall sand dunes at the beach with retractable roof and walls to where a person coul feel quite outdoors with them retracted but quite indoors during inclement or cold weather and whether in the outside retracted format or the inside enclosed format a dignified beautiful SANCTUARY that would be a fitting place for the Body and Blood of Christ.

Would such a Catholic Church building be possible?

Such a place could be used for weddings but it wouldn’t be just a wedding chapel but the home of a genuine Catholic parish.
 
The important thing is to not use “extraordinary circumstances” as an *excuse *for shacking up.

It has to be impossible to get a priest or deacon, not inconvenient, or overwhelmingly difficult, or because it would force a detrimental change to financial circumstances.

Ruthie, being a stickler…
 
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