In The Tradition of Aquinas. Proof for the Existence of An immaterial Soul

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First, I want to thank Saint Thomas Aquinas for his contributions to our pursuit and understanding of truth. Saint Thomas, please pray for us!

My philosophy teacher was a retired physicist who insisted we based our philosophical arguments on good, solid, scientific fact. He told us we must understand how the world works before we attempt to explain why it works that way. Get a degree in a hard science he told us, then our philosophy will not be useless; for good information and good thinking lead to good conclusions. With that said I present to you PROOF ala Thomas for the necessity and existence of an immaterial soul. Here are two arguments. The first argument is an argument from causation. The second an argument of necessity and is proposed in the form of a dilema.

The brain is considered by the vast majority to be the organ responsible for thought, reason, deliberation, choice, etc. As a result of scientific inquiry it is now possible to explain at least to some degree how the mind works. It has been discovered that the body is an intimate conglomerate of biochemical and electrical processes. The mind functions by electrical neural impulses and biochemical relays. Vast networks consisting of neurons, axons, terminals and dendrites carry these biochemical and electrical signals throughout the body which relays these messages to the body by means of nerves, hormones and other chemicals. It appears to many that the mind-body problem has been settled once and for all. The processes of the mind, once thought to be only possible by immaterial substance, have been proven to be the result of extraordinarily complex anatomical and physiological processes. Nevertheless these processes are strictly material.

I do not believe this solution to be adequate. When we think, neurons carry electrical impulses which stimulate the release of neurotransmitters which travel across the synaptic cleft to the receptor sites of another neuron initiating or inhibiting another electrical impulse. This complex series of bioelectrical events can be likened to a relay team passing the baton, one to another, until reaching their ultimate goal. The question that I pose is who blows the whistle? Perhaps the brains workings are also analogous to billiards with a cue striking a ball thus transferring its kinetic energy which causes the ball to move indefinitely until it loses its kinetic energy or finds its way to a pocket. The same question arises, who is it that strikes the cue? Now back to the issue at hand, if a particular thought process can be explained in light of neurological relays then what is it that causes the first neuron in the chain to fire? Sometimes I imagine it is a result of external stimulation. However I believe that sometimes it happens as a result of choice.

Case and point: I wanted to try to address this issue of the mind and so I sat down to think hard. I caused myself to think about this issue. Now how can such a thing be? How can a thing cause itself? How can I (my brain) be the source of the cause unless I am in some way distinct from my brain? I propose that in such a instance (this particular instance of my deliberate reason) and in many others it is the will of the person which causes the neural chain-of-events. It is my will that blows the whistle and it is my will which strikes the cue.

Furthermore I propose that either our will follows from a part of us that is immaterial or we have no will at all. But because we have a will it necessarily follows that part of us is immaterial. It is possible to present this dilemma because if our minds can work only by chemical reactions and physical laws, which are beyond our desire and control, then it is not possible that we are free. If we are not free then a “will” is impossible.

Let the flames fly and the criticisms abound. However, if these arguments be valid I pray that they may cause many to consider the possibility that we are a union of the physical and the meta physical. And that the source of our being is found in God the Creator.
 
Hmm. Was hoping some people would find this at least interesting and would leave any comments or criticisms.
 
I propose that in such a instance (this particular instance of my deliberate reason) and in many others it is the will of the person which causes the neural chain-of-events. It is my will that blows the whistle and it is my will which strikes the cue.
I pretty much agree with your line of thought. But I would draw the traditional, and Thomistic, distinction between mind and will. In this case it is perhaps your mind (in the immaterial sense) initiating the neuronal series of events, your will also being involved by decided what you want to hink about. One might also say that your mind forms the concepts (immaterially) before they are translated into neuronal action.

I would also note that philosophy is prior to physicis. The natural scientist, to begin with, must begin by accepting two philosophical axioms: “I am.” and “I can know.”
 
Always think it’s sad when “learned” philosophers end up forgetting the very important “common sense”!

Common sense for me poses some very pertinent questions regarding your topic. How does material being alone know what topic to cause the brain to think about? (Especially when no external physical stimuli.) How does it keep it on track? Or if it “goes off track” why would it (thought in mind) even consider/declare it as off track if it’s only the natural/correct result of physcial causes? How does a chemical process in a physical brain come up with a new, previously unheard of, creative idea? Or do materialist philosophers hold that immaterial ideas are enclosed in some way in the physical material of brain cells? etc. etc. etc. The questions could go on and on for me.

Like Hail Mary, I also find the topic interesting. Hope more will comment.

Nita
 
The fundamental question of mind:

Does mind arise from thought, or thought from mind?
 
I was born in the Roman Catholic Church, raised in the Roman and Dominican Rites, but then in adulthood discovered the Ruthenian Catholic Church, which is in union with and Subject to Rome, but is not Roman Catholic.

While still nominally Roman (I’ve not done the paperwork needed to transfer formally from one to the other), I have become affected strongly by Ruthenian Catholic Byzantine Ritual & Traditional elements.

As to the soul, the Ruthenian influence make me say “The sould is a holy mystery. God gave it to us, and we must take care of it. Worrying about when it came, how it interfaces, and why it’s there are pointless.”
 
The fundamental question of mind:

Does mind arise from thought, or thought from mind?
The mind,or intellect, is that faculty of the human soul by which we know. The mind knows by producing ideas, or thoughts, which though immaterial, are abstracted from the sensory (name removed by moderator)ut from the body.
 
I would also note that philosophy is prior to physicis. The natural scientist, to begin with, must begin by accepting two philosophical axioms: “I am.” and “I can know.”
and just as there are fundamental truths in philosophy which can not be proven so the edifice of science is built upon the foundation of fundamental truths which cant be proven: extension, mass and time.

chew on that
 
I was born in the Roman Catholic Church, raised in the Roman and Dominican Rites, but then in adulthood discovered the Ruthenian Catholic Church, which is in union with and Subject to Rome, but is not Roman Catholic.

While still nominally Roman (I’ve not done the paperwork needed to transfer formally from one to the other), I have become affected strongly by Ruthenian Catholic Byzantine Ritual & Traditional elements.

As to the soul, the Ruthenian influence make me say “The sould is a holy mystery. God gave it to us, and we must take care of it. Worrying about when it came, how it interfaces, and why it’s there are pointless.”
I disagree and do not believe it to be pointless. If you would like me to elaborate as to why I can but I shall leave it at that otherwise. Of course there are many things we can not possibly understand or know now, these things are a mystery.

However, we can naturally come to know by reason and observation alone certain truths including the existence of God, the existence of the immaterial, non-corporeal and eternal soul, etc.
 
Thanks for the reply Aramis.
As to the soul, the Ruthenian influence make me say “The sould is a holy mystery. God gave it to us, and we must take care of it. Worrying about when it came, how it interfaces, and why it’s there are pointless.”/
Made me think of something I read once regarding all the philosophical probings; something similar to: “God loves philosophers too and cares about their souls.” 🙂

Nita
 
wow. i thought something like this would be huge. im presenting original philosophical proof for the existence of the immaterial soul. a measly 83 views?

i was pretty excited when i thought of this, nobody els thinks this is really cool?
 
wow. i thought something like this would be huge. im presenting original philosophical proof for the existence of the immaterial soul. a measly 83 views?

i was pretty excited when i thought of this, nobody else thinks this is really cool?
While it’s great that you figured this out on your own, I think what you’re finding out is that it’s not particularly that much of a groundbreaking discovery. It’s simply the case that certain proofs for the existence of a spiritual human soul, very similar to yours, have been around for quite a while, ever since people noticed the tremendous gap between the minds of men and animals. The one I learned it went something like this:
  1. Operation follows being. An effect cannot be greater than its cause. A thing acts according to how it is. If we find spiritual actions, then their source must be a spiritual being.
  2. Spiritual operations in humans (only one needed for proof): We can abstract and know universals (such as humanity), concepts that are not limited by material things. We can have, know, and discuss concepts of purely spiritual things (such as truth and justice). We have a language that transcends the material (purely conventional and changeable, unlike the one-meaning for one-sound correspondence that exists among other animals). We can make purely spiritual choices (such as eating what you know to be healthy for you instead of always eating what is most appealing to your senses).
And that’s all aside from the common sense arguments such as “how could a pile of atoms ever be able to really look at itself as if apart from itself and recognize that it exists”? So yeah… I think that, while this is great, it’s just not the kind of spectacular breakthough you might have been expecting it to be. But don’t be disappointed…keep up the good work. 🙂
 
What was St Thomas’ proof for the existence of the soul?

Yup. Science itself is founded on unproven assumptions. Example, the physical laws assume that repeated and consistent observations will apply everytime. But it doesn’t mean that it’s unfounded. Science has a good reason to assume this because the laws do seem to be observed consistently everytime. Doesn’t necessarily mean it will always be.

On topic, yes, the argument is pretty convincing. It doesn’t mean that since thought is accompanied by certain patterns of neuronal impulses, it is purely material. Thought itself can be a separate existence, a different mode of being. It appears to me that matter merely accompanies form (the soul). Matter itself cannot be the effector or cause of changes within itself. Otherwise, it negates the concept of free will, which seems self-evident to us as true.
 
wow. i thought something like this would be huge. im presenting original philosophical proof for the existence of the immaterial soul. a measly 83 views?

i was pretty excited when i thought of this, nobody els thinks this is really cool?
St. Thomas had this proven for around 1000 years. 🤷
 
The processes of the mind, once thought to be only possible by immaterial substance, have been proven to be the result of extraordinarily complex anatomical and physiological processes. Nevertheless these processes are strictly material.
I’m sorry, but this is completely untrue. It is correct that the soul and the body are inextricably linked. But thought, while being driven by physical processes PARTLY, is NOT only physical. The mind-body problem was solved by Aquinas around 1000 years ago.

Read Dr. Feser on it: edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2011/01/against-neurobabble.html
“Soul” on this view is just a technical term for the form of the living body. And the view is dualist, not because it affirms the existence of the soul (plants and non-human animals have forms, and thus “souls,” but are purely material) but rather because it takes human beings to have certain special capacities that do not involve a material organ – namely, their intellectual capacities. There is no “interaction problem” for hylemorphic dualism, though, because the soul is not (as it is for Descartes) a distinct substance which needs somehow to get into contact with a material substance via efficient causation; it is rather only a part of a complete substance – the formal cause of the substance, of which the matter composing the body is the material cause. The relationship between soul and body is therefore not like that of two billiard balls, one of them ghostly, which have to find a way somehow to knock into one another. It is more like the relationship between the shape of a triangle drawn on paper and the ink which has taken on the shape – two aspects of one thing, rather than two things. Or it is like the relationship between the meaning of a word and the letters that make up the word, or the relationship between the pictorial content of a painting and the splotches of color that make up the painting.
Bolding is mine.
 
Article 1

MAN: THE IMAGE OF GOD

1701 "Christ, . . . in the very revelation of the mystery of the Father and of his love, makes man fully manifest to himself and brings to light his exalted vocation."2 It is in Christ, "the image of the invisible God,"3 that man has been created “in the image and likeness” of the Creator. It is in Christ, Redeemer and Savior, that the divine image, disfigured in man by the first sin, has been restored to its original beauty and ennobled by the grace of God.4

1702 The divine image is present in every man. It shines forth in the communion of persons, in the likeness of the union of the divine persons among themselves (cf chapter two).

1703 Endowed with “a spiritual and immortal” soul,5 The human person is "the only creature on earth that God has willed for its own sake."6 From his conception, he is destined for eternal beatitude.

1704 The human person participates in the light and power of the divine Spirit. By his reason, he is capable of understanding the order of things established by the Creator. By free will, he is capable of directing himself toward his true good. He finds his perfection "in seeking and loving what is true and good."7

1705 By virtue of his soul and his spiritual powers of intellect and will, man is endowed with freedom, an "outstanding manifestation of the divine image."8

1706 By his reason, man recognizes the voice of God which urges him "to do what is good and avoid what is evil."9 Everyone is obliged to follow this law, which makes itself heard in conscience and is fulfilled in the love of God and of neighbor. Living a moral life bears witness to the dignity of the person.

The above is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. This is the truth we live by.
When scientists start " philosophizing " they are generally out of their element and should just be ignored.

And before you go ‘’ phiolosophizing " on your own better get a real good foundation in Thomism or you will be certain to go off on some wild tangent.

It really isn’t productive to discuss the value of private speculatons. 👍
 
Here are two arguments. The first argument is an argument from causation. The second an argument of necessity and is proposed in the form of a dilema.
It appears to many that the mind-body problem has been settled once and for all. The processes of the mind, once thought to be only possible by immaterial substance, have been proven to be the result of extraordinarily complex anatomical and physiological processes. Nevertheless these processes are strictly material.
" Right, strictly material."

I do not believe this solution to be adequate. When we think, neurons carry electrical impulses which stimulate the release of neurotransmitters which travel across the synaptic cleft to the receptor sites of another neuron initiating or inhibiting another electrical impulse. This complex series of bioelectrical events can be likened to a relay team passing the baton, one to another, until reaching their ultimate goal. The question that I pose is who blows the whistle? Perhaps the brains workings are also analogous to billiards with a cue striking a ball thus transferring its kinetic energy which causes the ball to move indefinitely until it loses its kinetic energy or finds its way to a pocket. The same question arises, who is it that strikes the cue? Now back to the issue at hand, if a particular thought process can be explained in light of neurological relays then what is it that causes the first neuron in the chain to fire? Sometimes I imagine it is a result of external stimulation. However I believe that sometimes it happens as a result of choice.

" Could be either one, but ultimately it would be God ( the First Cause ) "

Case and point: I wanted to try to address this issue of the mind and so I sat down to think hard. I caused myself to think about this issue. Now how can such a thing be? How can a thing cause itself? How can I (my brain) be the source of the cause unless I am in some way distinct from my brain? I propose that in such a instance (this particular instance of my deliberate reason) and in many others it is the will of the person which causes the neural chain-of-events. It is my will that blows the whistle and it is my will which strikes the cue.

" But your will acts opon the (name removed by moderator)ut of the intellect and that upon concepts formed immediately from abstractions from the senses or from concepts stored in memory. Your will simply judges it is time to act ( i.e. to reflect). Ultimately it is God moving you here and now to act and who here and now fires all those mental processes. "

Furthermore I propose that either our will follows from a part of us that is immaterial or we have no will at all. But because we have a will it necessarily follows that part of us is immaterial. It is possible to present this dilemma because if our minds can work only by chemical reactions and physical laws, which are beyond our desire and control, then it is not possible that we are free. If we are not free then a “will” is impossible.

" Your will and intellect are properties of the immaterial soul, the substantial form of your body. There is no delimma here. The human body has a potency for the soul and all its acts. The soul needs the body to " empower and activate " its powers. If the body is seriously injured or becomes seriously ill, the powers of the soul are reduced, if the body dies, the soul leaves the body. Exactly how the spiritual soul interfaces with the material body is a mystery but there is no doubt that it does. You cannot solve the mystery by doing away with soul or the body. " The truth of what I am saying is that you can see the difference in brain wave patterns and intensity relative to the kind of problems the intellect and will are attending to and I suspect there are other indicators as well."

Article 1

MAN: THE IMAGE OF GOD

1701 "Christ, . . . in the very revelation of the mystery of the Father and of his love, makes man fully manifest to himself and brings to light his exalted vocation."2 It is in Christ, "the image of the invisible God,"3 that man has been created “in the image and likeness” of the Creator. It is in Christ, Redeemer and Savior, that the divine image, disfigured in man by the first sin, has been restored to its original beauty and ennobled by the grace of God.4

1702 The divine image is present in every man. It shines forth in the communion of persons, in the likeness of the union of the divine persons among themselves (cf chapter two).

1703 Endowed with “a spiritual and immortal” soul,5 The human person is "the only creature on earth that God has willed for its own sake."6 From his conception, he is destined for eternal beatitude.

1704 The human person participates in the light and power of the divine Spirit. By his reason, he is capable of understanding the order of things established by the Creator. By free will, he is capable of directing himself toward his true good. He finds his perfection "in seeking and loving what is true and good."7

1705 By virtue of his soul and his spiritual powers of intellect and will, man is endowed with freedom, an "outstanding manifestation of the divine image."8

1706 By his reason, man recognizes the voice of God which urges him "to do what is good and avoid what is evil."9 Everyone is obliged to follow this law, which makes itself heard in conscience and is fulfilled in the love of God and of neighbor. Living a moral life bears witness to the dignity of the person.

This is from the Catechism, this we must accept.

What philosophy texts have you studied?

👍👍
 
First, I want to thank Saint Thomas Aquinas for his contributions to our pursuit and understanding of truth. Saint Thomas, please pray for us!

My philosophy teacher was a retired physicist who insisted we based our philosophical arguments on good, solid, scientific fact. He told us we must understand how the world works before we attempt to explain why it works that way. Get a degree in a hard science he told us, then our philosophy will not be useless; for good information and good thinking lead to good conclusions. With that said I present to you PROOF ala Thomas for the necessity and existence of an immaterial soul. Here are two arguments. The first argument is an argument from causation. The second an argument of necessity and is proposed in the form of a dilema.

The brain is considered by the vast majority to be the organ responsible for thought, reason, deliberation, choice, etc. As a result of scientific inquiry it is now possible to explain at least to some degree how the mind works. It has been discovered that the body is an intimate conglomerate of biochemical and electrical processes. The mind functions by electrical neural impulses and biochemical relays. Vast networks consisting of neurons, axons, terminals and dendrites carry these biochemical and electrical signals throughout the body which relays these messages to the body by means of nerves, hormones and other chemicals. It appears to many that the mind-body problem has been settled once and for all. The processes of the mind, once thought to be only possible by immaterial substance, have been proven to be the result of extraordinarily complex anatomical and physiological processes. Nevertheless these processes are strictly material.

I do not believe this solution to be adequate. When we think, neurons carry electrical impulses which stimulate the release of neurotransmitters which travel across the synaptic cleft to the receptor sites of another neuron initiating or inhibiting another electrical impulse. This complex series of bioelectrical events can be likened to a relay team passing the baton, one to another, until reaching their ultimate goal. The question that I pose is who blows the whistle? Perhaps the brains workings are also analogous to billiards with a cue striking a ball thus transferring its kinetic energy which causes the ball to move indefinitely until it loses its kinetic energy or finds its way to a pocket. The same question arises, who is it that strikes the cue? Now back to the issue at hand, if a particular thought process can be explained in light of neurological relays then what is it that causes the first neuron in the chain to fire? Sometimes I imagine it is a result of external stimulation. However I believe that sometimes it happens as a result of choice.

Case and point: I wanted to try to address this issue of the mind and so I sat down to think hard. I caused myself to think about this issue. Now how can such a thing be? How can a thing cause itself? How can I (my brain) be the source of the cause unless I am in some way distinct from my brain? I propose that in such a instance (this particular instance of my deliberate reason) and in many others it is the will of the person which causes the neural chain-of-events. It is my will that blows the whistle and it is my will which strikes the cue.

Furthermore I propose that either our will follows from a part of us that is immaterial or we have no will at all. But because we have a will it necessarily follows that part of us is immaterial. It is possible to present this dilemma because if our minds can work only by chemical reactions and physical laws, which are beyond our desire and control, then it is not possible that we are free. If we are not free then a “will” is impossible.

Let the flames fly and the criticisms abound. However, if these arguments be valid I pray that they may cause many to consider the possibility that we are a union of the physical and the meta physical. And that the source of our being is found in God the Creator.
You have duplicated some of Descartes’ arguments, in your own style. This is a good thing, because Descartes was a fine philosopher. Most young people simply duplicate, or even plagiarize, the writings of contemporary philosophical incompetents, like Darwin, Marx, or Popper.

Keep thinking, and trust your excellent teacher. He was right. It is inconceivable that one who knows no physics can fairly speculate about the beginnings of a physical universe. .
 
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