In the Trinity, why is G-d the Father the First Person, Jesus the Second Person, and the Holy Spirit the Third Person?

Status
Not open for further replies.
M

meltzerboy

New member
My question relates specifically to the numbering of the Persons in the Godhead. Why can’t Jesus be the First Person, or the Holy Spirit, since all three Persons are believed to be in existence eternally, with no beginning or end? Is it a matter of tradition, or perhaps based on their appearance to humanity? Would it make any difference theologically if one changed the order?
 
meltzerboy said:
My question relates specifically to the numbering of the Persons in the Godhead. Why can’t Jesus be the First Person, or the Holy Spirit, since all three Persons are believed to be in existence eternally, with no beginning or end? Is it a matter of tradition, or perhaps based on their appearance to humanity? Would it make any difference theologically if one changed the order?
Click to expand...
I do not know if I am qualified to answer. I had never thought about it, but I guess it would come from both the order that God reveled himself to Man. First as the Father, then the Son, then the Holy Ghost.
 
I was going to agree with your suggestion (sequence of appearance to humanity) but how then should we classify the Shekinah Glory?

I’ve rather thought that the Shekinah Glory was the Holy Spirit.
 
Barbkw said:
I was going to agree with your suggestion (sequence of appearance to humanity) but how then should we classify the Shekinah Glory?

I’ve rather thought that the Shekinah Glory was the Holy Spirit.
Click to expand...
It may be that was the Holy Ghost, but as a person of the trinity God other than the Father it had not been reveled yet.
 
God the Father is the ultimate origin of all. God the Son is “eternally begotten” and co-eternal, but begotten nonetheless. Further, the Holy Spirit “proceeds” from the Father and Son.

The fact that God the Father is the ultimate origin is such a fundamental tenant of Christianity, that describing the Holy Spirit as originating from both the Father and Son lead to a centuries long debate with the Orthodox, who thought such a description diluted the truth of God the Father’s glory.
 
meltzerboy said:
My question relates specifically to the numbering of the Persons in the Godhead. Why can’t Jesus be the First Person, or the Holy Spirit, since all three Persons are believed to be in existence eternally, with no beginning or end? Is it a matter of tradition, or perhaps based on their appearance to humanity? Would it make any difference theologically if one changed the order?
Click to expand...
I’ve never heard Primus or Secundus used in the Latin, so the “First” and “Second” must be some theology the Anglophones came up with.
 
Christ is begotten from the Father. He technically comes from the Father but there has not been a single moment that the Father existed that Christ was not there. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son and is a result of their love for each other.

I like to think of it in terms of God the Father is the first person. Christ is the Word made flesh, the Word being God’s self-knowledge literally incarnated into a person (not a human person but into a being person) with the same exact qualities. The Holy Spirit is the relationship that exists eternally between them that is also incarnated into a person/being.
 
The style of enumerating the Persons of the Blessed Trinity does not infer any sort of superiority between them. It is just that when we make a list our minds require a sequence.

Aware as I am of controversy concerning the mystery of the Godhead, I normally try not to delve too deeply. For this thread, I will make an exception.

As you have stated, all three Divine Persons are co-eternal and uncreated. They are also the same substance (singular in being). Yet, the revelation we have received is that the Son is “begotten” by the Father. This is a mystery we will be unable to solve ever in this world. The Son’s human nature was generated “by the power of the Holy Spirit.” So both the Father and the Holy Spirit took part in sending the Son to us.

Similarly, the Holy Spirit is “spirated” (the Filioque controversy referenced above concerns the human expression of this procession/spiration). Again, this is a mystery we will not be able to solve in this world. Similar to how the Son came to us by the cooperation of the Father and Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit comes to us through the cooperation of the Father and the Son.

If you don’t understand you’re in good company. I don’t understand, either. Faith is a gift from G-D rather than a result of intelligence. 😉

This is treated rather thoroughly in the Catechism: Trinity, Joint mission of the Son and the Spirit.
 
meltzerboy said:
My question relates specifically to the numbering of the Persons in the Godhead. Why can’t Jesus be the First Person, or the Holy Spirit, since all three Persons are believed to be in existence eternally, with no beginning or end? Is it a matter of tradition, or perhaps based on their appearance to humanity? Would it make any difference theologically if one changed the order?
Click to expand...
MB:

God is a spiritual being. The two activities of spiritual being are “thought” and “volition.” The Fathers have indicated that Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are “processions.” Scripture speaks to the two such processions: from the Father’s Thought, proceedeth the Son and from the Father’s Volition proceedeth the Paraclete or Holy Spirit. The order more than likely references a model that men and women could somewhat easily understand, since the idea of “three persons in one being” is inconceivable.

In John viii 42, we hear Jesus say, “For from God I proceeded and came.” Then, from John xv 26, we hear Jesus say, “[the Paraclete] …whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father.” The Holy Spirit is sent by the Son, and thus, proceeds from the Son and the Father equally.

To some extent we can think of the way we think, since we are made in His image, and get a better understanding of the exigencies of procession from a look at that. From our Wills, we choose, make choices (volition); from our Thinking we come to know and define things (thought). They are very closely aligned with each other, but there is a tiny bit of difference between them that we, perhaps, can grasp. So, we read that Jesus does certain things and the Holy Spirit, other things.

But, as has been said, there is no difference between them in the orders of perfection or occurrence. We have traditionally said, “Father, Son and Holy Ghost,” as a more explicit representation of Trinity.

God bless,
jd
 
Thank you for your thought-provoking comments. I think I have a better understanding of the issue now, if not a definitive answer. (In Judaism, we don’t always prefer definitive answers anyway!)
 
The Son is the Word, or divine knowledge by which all is created, therefore, the Son proceeds from the Father who is the knower.

The Holy Spirit is said to be the love of the Father and Son for each other and therefore proceeds from the Father and Son.

So if you’re going to number the Persons, the Father is 1, the Son is 2, and the Holy Spirit is 3.

But as Aquinas says, the three Persons are distinct from each other only by relationship, not substance. There is only one divine substance and one God.

The ancient Hebrews had an inkling of the Holy Trinity.
Genesis ch 3 v 22
Then the LORD God said: "See! The man has become like one of us, knowing what is good and what is bad!
Click to expand...
 
The Son is refered to in the Bible as the “only begotten son”. The very meaning of son
means there is a father from whom the son came. Therefore the Father, then the Son.
Jesus said I will send the Holy Spirit from the Father. Jn 16:7 From the Father and the
Son the Holy Spirit is sent, the third Person.

Just a thought.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top