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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Depends what you mean. 
Catholic =//= Roman Catholic. If it did, only the Roman Rite would be Catholic. It say there are other Catholic Churches.
As for the assumption that one has to be in union with Rome to be Catholic - which what you mean, I think - it is only an assumption. The Orthodox are not in union with Rome, but Rome says they are part of the Church: so Rome is contradicting itself (& its past teaching). If the Orthodox can be Catholic yet not in union with Rome, it is only Romeās say-so, nothing else, that says Anglicanism canāt be Catholic.And Anglicans judge what is Anglican by Anglican standards, not by what the man in the Vatican says. The CC does not judge itself by SBC standards - why should Anglicans apply Romeās standards to themselves ? The Pope has no jurisdiction over nor authority in Anglicanism, any more than the Dalai Lama has.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
Depends what you mean.
** A Straw man. I didnāt say it.**
As for the assumption that one has to be in union with Rome to be Catholic - which what you mean, I think - it is only an assumption. The Orthodox are not in union with Rome, but Rome says they are part of the Church: so Rome is contradicting itself (& its past teaching). If the Orthodox can be Catholic yet not in union with Rome, it is only Romeās say-so, nothing else, that says Anglicanism canāt be Catholic. ** The Orthodox are not Catholic. They donāt claim to be. Neither does the Catholic Church claim that they are. The Catholic Church holds that the Orthodox clergy have valid Apostolic Succession and that, therefore, their sacraments are valid sacraments. Other than a few (number unknown to me) of Anglican clergy who have been ordained by Old Catholic bishops, the Catholic Church maintains that the Anglican clergy does not have valid Apostolic Succession. I think the Catholic Church is able to define what it is and is not, just as the Anglican Church can define who is Anglican and who is not.**
And Anglicans judge what is Anglican by Anglican standards, not by what the man in the Vatican says. The CC does not judge itself by SBC standards - why should Anglicans apply Romeās standards to themselves ? The Pope has no jurisdiction over nor authority in Anglicanism, any more than the Dalai Lama has.** The Pope does not claim jurisdiction over or authority over Anglicanism. I suppose Anglicans could call themselves Shintoists if they wanted, but it wouldnāt make it so. **
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Will_B
Guest
Two big blocksā¦ Rome has not accepted our branch into communionā¦ We are working on itā¦ Second and maybe the largest is the closed communion table of the Roman Churchā¦
We believe that a person who has confessed their sins, is truly repented of their sins *(such as David is Psalm 51) *and acknowledges, and believes that the the host is the body of Christ should receive communionā¦
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GKC
Guest
It is also common amongst traditional Anglicans to include baptised, in the Trinitarian form, and confirmed by a bishop in apostolic succession (or, as the 1928 book adds, due to some history, desirous of being confirmed). But, as I often say, generalizing about Anglicans is tricky.
GKC
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Will_B
Guest
Iām going to say something that has be bugging me for yearsā¦ I will start with a question, and offer some of my thoughtsā¦
Why is there division in the Church?
My thoughtsā¦ 1) to justify sinā¦ 2) pride on the part of our church leadersā¦
Martin Luther wanted reform, but what he got was justification for sinā¦ Think about itā¦ If you donāt like what the church is telling, which is often the truth, split and form your own Churchā¦
How many churches today will allow:Couples to live together prior to marriage? Gay couples to be married, or live in a sinful manor?Abortion.I know this was not the intent of Martin Luther or any of the reformers, but they started the process of āIf you donāt like what the church is saying, split and start your ownā¦ā
Pride of the Church leadersā¦
My branch of the Anglican Community and Rome agree on almost everythingā¦ There are a few traditions where we donāt agreeā¦Yet, pride will not allow our two to uniteā¦ Same with the Eastern Church and the Western Catholic (Roman) Churchā¦ Itās prideā¦ And what is pride? SINā¦I can read the pride in this forumā¦
I love CS Lewisā¦ In the introduction to āMere Christianityā he said (and Iāll paraphrase)ā¦ The duty of every Christian is to seek he truthā¦ Read the Book!!
Bottom line: Who suffers because of this divisionā¦ First, āGodās People, you and meā ā¦ Second, āChrist himself, because a divided church can not fulfill what Christ intended it to doā
Wake Up Churchā¦ There is much to doā¦
Why is there division in the Church?
My thoughtsā¦ 1) to justify sinā¦ 2) pride on the part of our church leadersā¦
Martin Luther wanted reform, but what he got was justification for sinā¦ Think about itā¦ If you donāt like what the church is telling, which is often the truth, split and form your own Churchā¦
How many churches today will allow:Couples to live together prior to marriage? Gay couples to be married, or live in a sinful manor?Abortion.I know this was not the intent of Martin Luther or any of the reformers, but they started the process of āIf you donāt like what the church is saying, split and start your ownā¦ā
Pride of the Church leadersā¦
My branch of the Anglican Community and Rome agree on almost everythingā¦ There are a few traditions where we donāt agreeā¦Yet, pride will not allow our two to uniteā¦ Same with the Eastern Church and the Western Catholic (Roman) Churchā¦ Itās prideā¦ And what is pride? SINā¦I can read the pride in this forumā¦
I love CS Lewisā¦ In the introduction to āMere Christianityā he said (and Iāll paraphrase)ā¦ The duty of every Christian is to seek he truthā¦ Read the Book!!
Bottom line: Who suffers because of this divisionā¦ First, āGodās People, you and meā ā¦ Second, āChrist himself, because a divided church can not fulfill what Christ intended it to doā
Wake Up Churchā¦ There is much to doā¦
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bilop
Guest
I see. I am hoping and praying that Rome reaches a suitable arrangement to accept the traditional Anglicans as soon as possible.
God Bless
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emeraldcoast
Guest
Hi Will B.,
If Rome excepts your branch into communion, will you yourself be okay excepting a closed communion?
God Bless!
M
Mystic_Warrior
Guest
If there is talk of intercommunion with Rome, does that mean that āAnglicansā (broad term I know) would accept Romeās rule, i.e. Papal authority over them or would they want to be self-governed? Just wondering.
I saw Will B. post that there wasnāt much difference between the two faiths, but this would seem to be a big issue. It would be for me if I were Anglican.
Peaceā¦
MW
I saw Will B. post that there wasnāt much difference between the two faiths, but this would seem to be a big issue. It would be for me if I were Anglican.
Peaceā¦
MW
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emeraldcoast
Guest
Hi MW,
Here is my take on the issue. If you want to become Catholic go to your local Catholic Church in the area and sign up for RCIA and speak with the priest. I believe that if I were to become a Catholic that I would have to except with faith the complete teachings of the Catholic Church and that would include the Pope, birth control, closed Communion, just to name a few. I attend our childrenās Catholic Mass at their school and their is very little difference in the Mass. This would not be a challenge to me at all, it would be the teachings of the faith. I hope this makes sence.
Also, I think that faith is an idividual thing and that if I think that the Catholic Church is correct , I am not going to wait for the rest of my church to get a special deal from the Pope. I am going to leave and not pass goā¦
God Bless!
M
Mystic_Warrior
Guest
Thank you EC. Yeah, I canāt imagine any Anglican (again, broad term) submitting to the authority of the pope. I could be wrong, but that seems to be a large issue with the few Anglicans Iāve come across - primarily here.
Peaceā¦
MW
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Will_B
Guest
Noā¦ One of the things that bring people into our church is the felling of being accepted and welcomeā¦
We ask that all visitors accept the real presence of Christ in the Eucharistā¦ I know each person has his own concept of what āReal Presenceā isā¦ We do our best to let them know that Christ is not only present at the Eucharist but is āinā the Eucharist as wellā¦ His body, and His blood.
We ask that each person exam their hart, so as to be without mortal sin when receiving.
I donāt think our church leaders would accept union with Rome if we had to close our tableā¦ Time will tell???
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emeraldcoast
Guest
Thanks Will B! The open table is a big deal to me as well since it is the Lordās invitation to the table not ours.
God Bless!
W
Will_B
Guest
While I canāt speak for the entire Anglican Community, I will say what I know about our diocese.
We are looking for communion with Rome, not rule from Rome.
While we follow the magisterium on all things that pertain to salvation, there are traditions that we would not want to break from1. Open Communion Table (first)2. Married Clergyā¦ This probably is not an issue as Rome has always allow married clergy under certain circumstances.3. And we would not want to give up our form of worship, which is very rich in Anglican Tradition, plus very reverent and charismaticā¦ (Something I feel Pope Benedict would like to see in the Latin Rite)
When I go to church with my friends in the Roman Catholic Church, I would like to receive communion, not be told āSorry, you are not in communion with our Churchā >>> And my friends from the Roman Catholic Church, when visiting us will not receive because they are told, by the Roman Catholic Church, it is a sin to receive at our Tableā¦
Yet, When our Bishop was consecrated in 1997 dignitaries from the Roman Catholic Church representing the Archbishop were present and said our sacraments were now Validā¦ (Just not acceptable)Let me draw a similarity in the everyday world. You go into a store with your American Express Cardā¦ Itās a valid card, but that store doesnāt accept American Express.
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Mystic_Warrior
Guest
Thanks Will. I guess that I just donāt understand what it means to be āin communionā with Rome. Iāll have to research a bit to get a better understanding.
Peaceā¦
MW
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GKC
Guest
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GKC
Guest
Are you ACA, by any chance?
And that āvalid sacramentsā statement is interesting. Do you know the logic behind it?
GKC
Anglicanus Catholicus
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Will_B
Guest
In communion with Rome simply means we share a common belief, therefore we share communionā¦ Romans are allowed to receive at our table and we are allowed to receive at theirs.
To be in union with Rome would put us under the direct authority of Romeā¦ The Vatican would then approve and select all our clergy, etc.
While we believe all that Rome believes, we simply do not abide by all the same traditions.
Example of little traditions:: We kneel to pray (Rome did to a few decades ago) ā¦ We make the sign of the cross during the Sanctus at the verse āBlessed is He who Comes in the Name of the Lordāā¦ We kneel for the final blessing by the priest or bishop. ā¦ Most of our Churches still have a rail, so a person can kneel to receive the Body and Blood of Christā¦ ā¦ We bow when the cross or crucifix passes us during the precession or recessionā¦ >>> We do all this not out of obligation or regulation, but out of love and respect to God and those sacramentals that represent His Kingdom.
To be in union with Rome would put us under the direct authority of Romeā¦ The Vatican would then approve and select all our clergy, etc.
While we believe all that Rome believes, we simply do not abide by all the same traditions.
Example of little traditions:: We kneel to pray (Rome did to a few decades ago) ā¦ We make the sign of the cross during the Sanctus at the verse āBlessed is He who Comes in the Name of the Lordāā¦ We kneel for the final blessing by the priest or bishop. ā¦ Most of our Churches still have a rail, so a person can kneel to receive the Body and Blood of Christā¦ ā¦ We bow when the cross or crucifix passes us during the precession or recessionā¦ >>> We do all this not out of obligation or regulation, but out of love and respect to God and those sacramentals that represent His Kingdom.
M
Mystic_Warrior
Guest
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Will_B
Guest
We just came under the umbrella of the Anglican Church in Americaā¦ Our history is long and complicated.
Our Bishop, who just resigned for medical reasons, was once an Episcopal priestā¦ In 1982 he founded a Benedictine Community. In 1995 or 1996 he and the community left the Episcopal Church for moral reasons. ā¦ They then joined the CEC (Charismatic Episcopal Church)ā¦ In 2005 there were major problems in the CEC, I donāt know allā¦ Again, the community split with the CEC and formed the Communion of Corpus Christi under the authority of our diocesan bishopā¦ (FYI, there are three churches in our state in Corpus Chirsti, a community in New England and a small church in Texasā¦) >>> We are seeking and have just come under the authority of the Anglican Church in American. >> Since we are new to the ACA, Iām not 100% up on their status with Romeā¦
You can see why I am tired of splitsā¦ See one of my earlier post, in this thread, on division in the churchā¦
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