In what church will you find true believers?

[Tommy999]

…Do you think that Catholics believe that non-Catholics are, by default, damned to all eternity? where do you get these ideas?

Hi guanophore,
Isn’t that what the poster is implying in post #7? There are many others like it on other threads, too, such as forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=919327.

However, I am somewhat encouraged to find that their opinion, though vocal, is not the majority of Catholics on CAF, or at least I perceive that is the case. For example, I’ve found you to be a staunch defender of the Catholic faith who believes that Catholicism contains the fullness of the truth whereas Protestant faith traditions don’t, but you don’t condemn us to eternal damnation like those who quote St Augustine, and I appreciate that. It helps move the dialog on to other important matters.

In my faith tradition, if someone says you don’t have salvation without belonging to their faith tradition, and you don’t belong to their faith tradition, they are in essence claiming you are damned to all eternity, unless “salvation” means something different to each faith tradition.

In my view, there are undoubtedly sincere Christians in both the Catholic faith and Protestant traditions. I am in the process of trying to discern whether my faith would be enhanced through Catholicism or not.

I don’t find comments like post #7 very helpful in making that determination. In fact, if that is the majority Catholic belief, I think I’ll stay put right where I am. However, like I said, I think (and hope) that is not the prevailing view of Catholics and Catholicism.

 

[JRKH]

Tommy999:
Hi guanophore,
Isn’t that what the poster is implying in post #7? There are many others like it on other threads, too, such as forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=919327.

However, I am somewhat encouraged to find that their opinion, though vocal, is not the majority of Catholics on CAF, or at least I perceive that is the case. For example, I’ve found you to be a staunch defender of the Catholic faith who believes that Catholicism contains the fullness of the truth whereas Protestant faith traditions don’t, but you don’t condemn us to eternal damnation like those who quote St Augustine, and I appreciate that. It helps move the dialog on to other important matters.

In my faith tradition, if someone says you don’t have salvation without belonging to their faith tradition, and you don’t belong to their faith tradition, they are in essence claiming you are damned to all eternity, unless “salvation” means something different to each faith tradition.

In my view, there are undoubtedly sincere Christians in both the Catholic faith and Protestant traditions. I am in the process of trying to discern whether my faith would be enhanced through Catholicism or not.

I don’t find comments like post #7 very helpful in making that determination. In fact, if that is the majority Catholic belief, I think I’ll stay put right where I am. However, like I said, I think (and hope) that is not the prevailing view of Catholics and Catholicism.

What you point out here certainly is something of a problem. That is why it is always best to go with documented Church teaching rather than simply what you hear someone say or read in a post.

Church teaching says that anyone who is validly baptized (Trinitarian form) is a member of the Church - the body of Christ… Their communion may be imperfect, but the are “in the family” so to speak. You can read about this in the catechism starting at about para 811 and in particular starting at para 817…

So fear not…I have heard many say that their faith was indeed enhanced by Catholicism.

Peace
James

 

[TxGodfollower]

Hi guanophore,
Isn’t that what the poster is implying in post #7? There are many others like it on other threads, too, such as forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=919327.

However, I am somewhat encouraged to find that their opinion, though vocal, is not the majority of Catholics on CAF, or at least I perceive that is the case. For example, I’ve found you to be a staunch defender of the Catholic faith who believes that Catholicism contains the fullness of the truth whereas Protestant faith traditions don’t, but you don’t condemn us to eternal damnation like those who quote St Augustine, and I appreciate that. It helps move the dialog on to other important matters.

In my faith tradition, if someone says you don’t have salvation without belonging to their faith tradition, and you don’t belong to their faith tradition, they are in essence claiming you are damned to all eternity, unless “salvation” means something different to each faith tradition.

In my view, there are undoubtedly sincere Christians in both the Catholic faith and Protestant traditions. I am in the process of trying to discern whether my faith would be enhanced through Catholicism or not.

I don’t find comments like post #7 very helpful in making that determination. In fact, if that is the majority Catholic belief, I think I’ll stay put right where I am. However, like I said, I think (and hope) that is not the prevailing view of Catholics and Catholicism.

JRKH:

What you point out here certainly is something of a problem. That is why it is always best to go with documented Church teaching rather than simply what you hear someone say or read in a post.

Church teaching says that anyone who is validly baptized (Trinitarian form) is a member of the Church - the body of Christ… Their communion may be imperfect, but the are “in the family” so to speak. You can read about this in the catechism starting at about para 811 and in particular starting at para 817…

Peace
James

Tommy,

I complete agree with your perspective on that post (and some others that I won’t mention on other threads), but James is right on the Catholic Church’s position. That of individual Catholics varies, but you get that everywhere.

I agree that more progress is made when we can actually have a civilized rational discussion, without all the ‘holier than thou’ and ‘your not with us so your toast’ mentality. I personally think that if all Christians started viewing other denominations more as brothers and sisters and less as enemies, we would be a bright shining light.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

Indeed, there is only one Church, so all who are saved are a part of her.

That is true, but that is not Augustine’s point. Augustine has the Donatists in mind here. His point is that you can have all the elements of salvation, but that they do not avail to salvation outside of the Church, implying, of course, that the Donatists were outside the Church. The sin of schism is very grave. Whosoever shall keep the whole law, but offend in one point, is become guilty of all.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

I will not presume to know who will be called to Heaven. That is Gods job for only God can read a persons heart and mind. I am concerned with my own salvation and for me that lies in the teachings of the CC who I believe are the only Church with the authority given to them directly from Christ.

 

[JonNC]

Originally Posted by **Naiveessence **
To Catholics and Christians, do you believe you have true brothers and sisters in other churches besides your own?

First of all, why are you separating ‘Catholics’ and ‘Christians’?
Second, that’s a bit of a silly question. Who is making the claim there are not?

I thought I might bump your question up, as I am curious about this, as well. Hopefully,
Naiveessence will respond.

Jon

 

[guanophore]

Hi guanophore,
Isn’t that what the poster is implying in post #7?

No, there can’t be "true’ believers that are not catholic. No one can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Church you can find everything except salvation. You can have dignities, you can have Sacraments, you can sing “alleluia”, answer “Amen”, have faith in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, and preach it too; But never can you find salvation except in the Catholic Church.-Saint Augustine

Yes, I would say even more than an implication too. What I am asking is if YOU believe this!

There are many others like it on other threads, too, such as forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=919327.

However, I am somewhat encouraged to find that their opinion, though vocal, is not the majority of Catholics on CAF, or at least I perceive that is the case.

Even if that were a majority opinion, it would be irrelevant. The doctrine of the Church is handed down to us from the Apostles. It is not a matter of any opinion, however majority.

One also must remember that not everyone is well catechized in their faith. Sometimes Catholics do not accurately represent what the Church teaches.

For example, I’ve found you to be a staunch defender of the Catholic faith who believes that Catholicism contains the fullness of the truth whereas Protestant faith traditions don’t, but you don’t condemn us to eternal damnation like those who quote St Augustine, and I appreciate that. It helps move the dialog on to other important matters.

One must understand historical documents like Augustine within their context. When Augustine wrote, there were no denomiations, and there was only One Church, One Faith. All those who did not embrace it were heretics, pagans, or apostates. Augustine could never have imagined the many baptized Christians now that are fervent and faithful to Christ, yet do not know or understand the Catholic faith he loved.

There are other quotes, such as those in the link you posted above to the other thread that must also be understood in a similar context.

There is only One Church, and there is no salvation outside of it. All who are members of Christ are members of His One Body - even if imperfectly joined.

So when you run across Catholics who say that “all Protestants are going to hell” just redirect them to the Catechism so that they can become better educated about their faith.
Section 818 may help the grasp a more appropriate view.

In my faith tradition, if someone says you don’t have salvation without belonging to their faith tradition, and you don’t belong to their faith tradition, they are in essence claiming you are damned to all eternity, unless “salvation” means something different to each faith tradition.

We will both agree that there is no salvation outside of Christ, right? And He only has One Body (the Church). This is why we say there is no salvation outside the Church. All who are members of Christ are members of His Body. Some Catholics do not understand that this unity may be invisible (a person may not be a visible member of a Catholic parish).

Our Church also teaches that we cannot know who is in hell, or going to hell, because that is up to the judgment of God. Only He can know the heart.

In my view, there are undoubtedly sincere Christians in both the Catholic faith and Protestant traditions. I am in the process of trying to discern whether my faith would be enhanced through Catholicism or not.

Well, of course you know I will say “YES”! But I also know that each must make their own journey of faith. I hope you will be able to tolerate the ignorance and bigotry you may encounter and continue to learn more about Catholicism.

I don’t find comments like post #7 very helpful in making that determination. In fact, if that is the majority Catholic belief, I think I’ll stay put right where I am. However, like I said, I think (and hope) that is not the prevailing view of Catholics and Catholicism.

My recommendation is, pay no attention to majority opinion. Check the things you read with the Catechism, which is a sure norm for the Teaching of the Catholic faith.

 

[guanophore]

That is true, but that is not Augustine’s point. Augustine has the Donatists in mind here. His point is that you can have all the elements of salvation, but that they do not avail to salvation outside of the Church, implying, of course, that the Donatists were outside the Church. The sin of schism is very grave. Whosoever shall keep the whole law, but offend in one point, is become guilty of all.

Verily, but most modern Protestants cannot be charged with the sin of separation.

Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

 

[Tommy999]

Hi guanophore,
My answers are in bold below.

Yes, I would say even more than an implication too. What I am asking is if YOU believe this!

**I believe that salvation is through our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ as evidenced by John 3:16. ** .

Even if that were a majority opinion, it would be irrelevant. The doctrine of the Church is handed down to us from the Apostles. It is not a matter of any opinion, however majority.

**Point well taken. Thank goodness the doctrine of the Church is not majority rule or it would change every time the direction of the wind changed. **

One also must remember that not everyone is well catechized in their faith. Sometimes Catholics do not accurately represent what the Church teaches.

**Understood. I was just curious if they represented a majority of people in the Catholic faith or not. The faith I grew up in is an integral part of who I am and I came to know God through Christ in my Protestant faith tradition and my journey in Christ started, took root, and grew there.

For a group of other Christians whom I respect to presume that this experience I had was somehow invalid or incapable of salvation cuts me to the core. I can always deal with a few narrow-minded people. However, if they make up the majority, this mindset could be endemic and I don’t think I could ever be part of a faith like that or go around being ashamed of my background, because I am not ashamed of my background because I am proud of it. I am discerning whether my faith journey could be even more enhanced through Catholicism at this stage. **

One must understand historical documents like Augustine within their context. When Augustine wrote, there were no denomiations, and there was only One Church, One Faith. All those who did not embrace it were heretics, pagans, or apostates. Augustine could never have imagined the many baptized Christians now that are fervent and faithful to Christ, yet do not know or understand the Catholic faith he loved.

**Understood, and thanks for that. The context helps. **

There are other quotes, such as those in the link you posted above to the other thread that must also be understood in a similar context.

There is only One Church, and there is no salvation outside of it. All who are members of Christ are members of His One Body - even if imperfectly joined.

So when you run across Catholics who say that “all Protestants are going to hell” just redirect them to the Catechism so that they can become better educated about their faith.
Section 818 may help the grasp a more appropriate view.

**Will do. I started reading the Catechism. and thank you for showing that section. I just wonder if those who quote St Augustine and popes and saints from centuries past understand that, too. **

We will both agree that there is no salvation outside of Christ, right? And He only has One Body (the Church). This is why we say there is no salvation outside the Church. All who are members of Christ are members of His Body. Some Catholics do not understand that this unity may be invisible (a person may not be a visible member of a Catholic parish).

**Agreed. **

Our Church also teaches that we cannot know who is in hell, or going to hell, because that is up to the judgment of God. Only He can know the heart.

I agree with that, also.

Well, of course you know I will say “YES”! But I also know that each must make their own journey of faith. I hope you will be able to tolerate the ignorance and bigotry you may encounter and continue to learn more about Catholicism.

**I am a strong person and I think I can handle it. I will keep trying. I find your words encouraging. These are somewhat unchartered waters for me. **

My recommendation is, pay no attention to majority opinion. Check the things you read with the Catechism, which is a sure norm for the Teaching of the Catholic faith.

**I agree. If God says one thing and the majority opinion says another, God still wins. **

**One final question: When was the section of the Catechism that you cited (817-819) written? Just curious. I am trying to somehow reconcile that with some of the quotes from former popes and saints **

 

[Emily2014]

Believers are to be found within every Faith and way of life - both christian and non christian.
“In my Father’s house are many mansions…”( Gospel of St.John.)

God made us all and loves us all, irrespective of how we worship Him or by what name we call Him.

 

[SteveVH]

Consider this more deeply John 10:16"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

At that Time the Fold Christ was making was Christians, Christ did not Split the Faith. Thus this has to be talking about other Faiths in God, which are other Sheep and other Shepherds.

Thus look and you will find this is happening as we speak.

God Bless and Regards Tony

It’s very simple, Tony. Jesus was speaking to Jews, God’s chosen people, about the Gentiles who would be brought into the fold with Jesus as their one Shepherd. He wasn’t speaking of those who would preach a different Gospel and lead his flock to different Shepherds. There shall be one fold and one Shepherd and that Shepherd is Jesus Christ, not Baha’u’llah. Your statement is a contradiction of the words of Christ

 

[guanophore]

 Hi guanophore,

My answers are in bold below.

Thank you for your response.

I believe that salvation is through our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ as evidenced by John 3:16. .

Well that is very Catholic of you!

Point well taken. Thank goodness the doctrine of the Church is not majority rule or it would change every time the direction of the wind changed.

The CC has often been accused of being slow to respond to the modern culture and in some ways that may be true (Vatican 2 was very long overdue) but this slowness also prevents infection from modernism.

Understood. I was just curious if they represented a majority of people in the Catholic faith or not. The faith I grew up in is an integral part of who I am and I came to know God through Christ in my Protestant faith tradition and my journey in Christ started, took root, and grew there.

Although I am a cradle Catholic, this can also be said about me, as I left the faith into which I was baptized as a teen.

I think that attitude that excludes all those who are not visibly Catholic from salvation only represents a minority whe dissent against the Magesterium.

On the whole, ,though, I think that most Cathoics are poorly catechized in their faith. I know I was, along with my whole confirmation class.

For a group of other Christians whom I respect to presume that this experience I had was somehow invalid or incapable of salvation cuts me to the core. I can always deal with a few narrow-minded people. However, if they make up the majority, this mindset could be endemic and I don't think I could ever be part of a faith like that or go around being ashamed of my background, because I am not ashamed of my background because I am proud of it. I am discerning whether my faith journey could be even more enhanced through Catholicism at this stage.

This makes absolute sense. It is also the reason why the Catechism emphasizes that the Holy Spirit is at work in Protestant communities to produce just the good fruit you are describing. No one should be made to feel ashamed of their journey into knowing Christ.

Will do. I started reading the Catechism. and thank you for showing that section. I just wonder if those who quote St Augustine and popes and saints from centuries past understand that, too.

Some of them have not studied the Catechism, and some, unfortunately, reject what the Church teaches in favor of their own prejudices.

I am a strong person and I think I can handle it. I will keep trying. I find your words encouraging. These are somewhat unchartered waters for me.

I have found that the prayer intentions part of the forum is much more charitable and inviting. This section, and Apologetics tend toward a strident and rather combative atmosphere.

My recommendation is, pay no attention to majority opinion. Check the things you read with the Catechism, which is a sure norm for the Teaching of the Catholic faith

**One final question: When was the section of the Catechism that you cited (817-819) written? Just curious. I am trying to somehow reconcile that with some of the quotes from former popes and saints **

The Second English Edition was published in 1997, very recent in the historical picture.

What has changed, from those earlier publications, is how we understand the nature of the Church. Although it has always been believed that there was no salvation outside of the Church, the tendency to believe it as a visible manifestation was predominant.

The truth is that there are many of our separated brethren that are more fervent and devoted to their faith than most “visible” catholics who don’t even bother to attend Church, and disobey her teachings.

 

[Tommy999]

Thanks, guanophore. Good advice across the board. :tiphat:

 

[Peter_J]

Tommy999:
Hi guanophore,
Isn’t that what the poster is implying in post #7? There are many others like it on other threads, too, such as forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=919327.

However, I am somewhat encouraged to find that their opinion, though vocal, is not the majority of Catholics on CAF, or at least I perceive that is the case. For example, I’ve found you to be a staunch defender of the Catholic faith who believes that Catholicism contains the fullness of the truth whereas Protestant faith traditions don’t, but you don’t condemn us to eternal damnation like those who quote St Augustine, and I appreciate that. It helps move the dialog on to other important matters.

In my faith tradition, if someone says you don’t have salvation without belonging to their faith tradition, and you don’t belong to their faith tradition, they are in essence claiming you are damned to all eternity, unless “salvation” means something different to each faith tradition.

In my view, there are undoubtedly sincere Christians in both the Catholic faith and Protestant traditions. I am in the process of trying to discern whether my faith would be enhanced through Catholicism or not.

I don’t find comments like post #7 very helpful in making that determination. In fact, if that is the majority Catholic belief, I think I’ll stay put right where I am. However, like I said, I think (and hope) that is not the prevailing view of Catholics and Catholicism.

Don’t believe everything you read.

(Note that I can’t comment on post #7 specifically, as I haven’t read it.)

 

[Peter_J]

To Catholics and Christians,

Catholics and other Christians, friend. Catholicism is part of the Christian religion.

 

[mlz]

Consider this more deeply John 10:16"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

At that Time the Fold Christ was making was Christians, Christ did not Split the Faith. Thus this has to be talking about other Faiths in God, which are other Sheep and other Shepherds.

Thus look and you will find this is happening as we speak.

God Bless and Regards Tony

Sorry…no way…!
My Love in HIM,
mlz

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

Verily, but most modern Protestants cannot be charged with the sin of separation.

That might be true, but unlike the Donatists, Protestants are lacking in sacraments and in faith. Moreover, as Augustine says, one can have all the “elements of sanctification” and “means of salvation,” but not in unity with the Church, they will not lead to salvation.

One must understand historical documents like Augustine within their context. When Augustine wrote, there were no denomiations, and there was only One Church, One Faith. All those who did not embrace it were heretics, pagans, or apostates. Augustine could never have imagined the many baptized Christians now that are fervent and faithful to Christ, yet do not know or understand the Catholic faith he loved.

The Donatist’s deviation from Catholic orthodoxy was much smaller than that of Protestants. And do you think that the Donatists were not fervent? If the Donatists had any fault, it was not that they were not fervent. The reason for their schism stemmed from a rejection of those Christians who had given into government persecutions and handed over the Scriptures (whom the Donatists called “traitors”). This controversy was the context in which their schism and their errors arose. By the time St. Augustine wrote the sermon quoted in this thread by Scientia Dei, the Donatists had been around for quite a long time. By the time Augustine was born, there were adults among the Donatists who had been born into that faction. And so it is not so simple as saying that the existence of Protestants who had been born into separation from the Church through no fault of their own was a reality inconceivable for Augustine. He explicitly speaks about this situation in one of his letters.

The Apostle Paul has said: “A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject, knowing that he that is such is subverted and sins, being condemned of himself.” Titus 3:10-11 But though the doctrine which men hold be false and perverse, if they do not maintain it with passionate obstinacy, especially when they have not devised it by the rashness of their own presumption, but have accepted it from parents who had been misguided and had fallen into error, and if they are with anxiety seeking the truth, and are prepared to be set right when they have found it, such men are not to be counted heretics. Were it not that I believe you to be such, perhaps I would not write to you. And yet even in the case of a heretic, however puffed up with odious conceit, and insane through the obstinacy of his wicked resistance to truth, although we warn others to avoid him, so that he may not deceive the weak and inexperienced, we do not refuse to strive by every means in our power for his correction. On this ground I wrote even to some of the chief of the Donatists, not indeed letters of communion, which on account of their perversity they have long ceased to receive from the undivided Catholic Church which is spread throughout the world, but letters of a private kind, such as we may send even to pagans. These letters, however, though they have sometimes read them, they have not been willing, or perhaps it is more probable, have not been able, to answer. In these cases, it seems to me that I have discharged the obligation laid on me by that love which the Holy Spirit teaches us to render, not only to our own, but to all, saying by the apostle: “The Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men.” 1 Thessalonians 3:12 In another place we are warned that those who are of a different opinion from us must be corrected with meekness, “if God perhaps will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth, and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.” 2 Timothy 2:25-26

I have said these things by way of preface, lest any one should think, because you are not of our communion, that I have been influenced by forwardness rather than consideration in sending this letter, and in desiring thus to confer with you regarding the welfare of the soul; though I believe that, if I were writing to you about an affair of property, or the settlement of some dispute about money, no one would find fault with me. So precious is this world in the esteem of men, and so small is the value which they set upon themselves! This letter, therefore, shall be a witness in my vindication at the bar of God, who knows the spirit in which I write, and who has said: “Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the sons of God.” Matthew 5:9
newadvent.org/fathers/1102043.htm

In short, I think you are not being fair to Augustine and understanding him according to his own words.

I am not saying everyone without exception who dies in a Protestant church is damned. I could not possibly know that. I only think it is more complicated than you are making it out to be.

Here is a thought exercise. Let’s say that someone was baptized as an infant so there is no objection that they were not “united to the Church” , yet never received any Christian formation as a child, and ended up entering into another religion (Islam, Buddhism, even Satanism or whatever) and followed that belief and died in it. Are they saved in virtue of baptism and following what they believed to be true according to the best of their abilities? At what point to they become culpable for their state?

 

[mlz]

Consider this more deeply John 10:16"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

At that Time the Fold Christ was making was Christians, Christ did not Split the Faith. Thus this has to be talking about other Faiths in God, which are other Sheep and other Shepherds.

Thus look and you will find this is happening as we speak.

God Bless and Regards Tony

I’m afraid you must not understand that this is a reference to the Gentiles, who are gathered into the Messiah’s flock along side the restored sheep of Israel (11:52) one flock, one shepherd: Jesus is the supreme Shepard over the one universal Church (Hebrew 13:20) The spiritual authority of other shepherds like Peter and the apostles is derived entirely from Christ, who gives disciples a share in his saving mission to different degrees ( 21:15-17 CCC 553, 754) The Nicene Creed delienates the four marks of the Church as “one, holy, catholic and apostolic”. The first mark. oneness, means that the Church is unified in her faith, worship, and leadership and receives her life from the one trud God (17:11, Eph 4:4-6) (CCC 813-22)

Blessings in HIM, my love,
mlz

 

[tonyfish58]

I’m afraid you must not understand that this is a reference to the Gentiles, who are gathered into the Messiah’s flock along side the restored sheep of Israel (11:52) one flock, one shepherd: Jesus is the supreme Shepard over the one universal Church (Hebrew 13:20) The spiritual authority of other shepherds like Peter and the apostles is derived entirely from Christ, who gives disciples a share in his saving mission to different degrees ( 21:15-17 CCC 553, 754) The Nicene Creed delienates the four marks of the Church as “one, holy, catholic and apostolic”. The first mark. oneness, means that the Church is unified in her faith, worship, and leadership and receives her life from the one trud God (17:11, Eph 4:4-6) (CCC 813-22)Blessings in HIM, my love,mlz

Dear miz - Dear friend in God contained within all of John 10:10-21 is a mighty story that has now been told. You are free to consider it only applies to the Gentiles.

Dear friend in God, Gods Word embraces all Mankind from the First to the Last.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[MartinJordan]

I’m afraid you must not understand that this is a reference to the Gentiles, who are gathered into the Messiah’s flock along side the restored sheep of Israel (11:52) one flock, one shepherd: Jesus is the supreme Shepard over the one universal Church (Hebrew 13:20) The spiritual authority of other shepherds like Peter and the apostles is derived entirely from Christ, who gives disciples a share in his saving mission to different degrees ( 21:15-17 CCC 553, 754) The Nicene Creed delienates the four marks of the Church as “one, holy, catholic and apostolic”. The first mark. oneness, means that the Church is unified in her faith, worship, and leadership and receives her life from the one trud God (17:11, Eph 4:4-6) (CCC 813-22)

Blessings in HIM, my love,
mlz

Those who have ears…

MJ