In what order did each church appear?

[Fr_Ambrose]

Lumen Gentium:

I think Fr. Ambrose is setting up a good example here:
that we don’t need to be “nationally aclaimed” early church historians to show our prejudice.
PAX

I don’t have to read what your Orthodox historian says and neither do I have to argue his points. Fact that he’s Orthodox and that his church separated from the Catholic Church is more than enough for me to believe what he writes about church history can be twisted and therefore he’s biased.

BELLUM.

 

[Lumen_Gentium]

Oh NO to Bellum. :tsktsk: The Holy Father JP2 (Oh Lord, how I miss your servant) taught us that war is a defeat for humanity.

YES to Peace!!!
Fr Ambrose:

I don’t have to read what your Orthodox historian says and neither do I have to argue his points. Fact that he’s Orthodox and that his church separated from the Catholic Church is more than enough for me to believe what he writes about church history can be twisted and therefore he’s biased.

BELLUM.

 

[MrS]

Fr Ambrose:

Fact: The Church now known as the Roman Catholic Church (one of a communion of 22 sui juris Churches) separated itself from the Orthodox Church in the 11th century.

Fact: From the viewpoint of the Roman Catholic Church it makes no sense to say that the Orthodox Church separated from it. The schism was not something initiated by the Orthodox. In fact the Orthodox were excommunicated by Rome by a Bull of Excommunication in 1054 AD which accused them of 1) omitting the “filioque” from the Creed and 2) having married priests. This is a piece of historical idiocy on both counts but it was used as the justification to break communion with the Orthodox and to create an independent Roman Catholic Church.

…and the “Roman” (Roman not added for another 500++ years) Catholic Church then “kidnapped” the Vicar of Christ, the successor to Peter with them??? Sounds kinda strange.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

MrS:

…and they “kidnapped” the Vicar of Christ, the successor to Peter with them??? Sounds kinda strange.

Well, you’d a thought that the Vicar of Christ would have known that the two charges in the Bull of Excommunication which cast the Orthodox into schism and the eternal fires were absolutely a load of manufactured codswallop. You’d a thought that the successor of Peter would have been aghast at the injustice of these false charges and that he would have withdrawn them and apologised. He would have averted the worst schism to hit Christendom. Instead he allowed the false accusations to stand and he plunged us into schism and consigned us to the outer darkness. He used the Keys to close the gates of heaven against us and he sent the innocent to hell!! Now Peter may have done that in his famous impetuosity but the real Peter would also have repented and wept and corrected his mistake.

 

[MrS]

Fr Ambrose:

Well, you’d a thought that the Vicar of Christ would have known that the two charges in the Bull of Excommunication which **cast the Orthodox into schism and the eternal fires **were absolutely a load of manufactured codswallop. You’d a thought that the successor of Peter would have been aghast at the injustice of these false charges and that he would have withdrawn them and apologised. He would have averted the worst schism to hit Christendom. Instead he allowed the false accusations to stand and he plunged us into schism and consigned us to the outer darkness. He used the Keys to close the gates of heaven against us and he sent the innocent to hell!! Now Peter may have done that in his famous impetuosity but the real Peter would also have repented and wept and corrected his mistake.

Wow, where did all that come from? There are innocents in hell??? A human pope assumes the Judgement reserved to God?? Is that Orthodox theology. I hope not. But if it is, I have a new understanding of the schism.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

MrS:

Wow, where did all that come from? There are innocents in hell??? A human pope assumes the Judgement reserved to God?? Is that Orthodox theology. I hope not. But if it is, I have a new understanding of the schism.

Here are the Pope’s words of doom against the Orthodox and the Jews.

These are the words of Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence in 1445:

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels”

So there it is in black and white.

 

[Mickey]

Fr Ambrose:

These are the words of Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence in 1445:

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels”

So there it is in black and white.

Was he speaking ex-cathedra?

 

[Subrosa]

Fr Ambrose:

Well, you’d a thought that the Vicar of Christ would have known that the two charges in the Bull of Excommunication which cast the Orthodox into schism and the eternal fires were absolutely a load of manufactured codswallop. You’d a thought that the successor of Peter would have been aghast at the injustice of these false charges and that he would have withdrawn them and apologised. He would have averted the worst schism to hit Christendom. Instead he allowed the false accusations to stand and he plunged us into schism and consigned us to the outer darkness. He used the Keys to close the gates of heaven against us and he sent the innocent to hell!! Now Peter may have done that in his famous impetuosity but the real Peter would also have repented and wept and corrected his mistake.

Fortunately we have this:

“For the occasions past and present, when sons and daughters of the Catholic Church have sinned by action or omission against their Orthodox brothers and sisters, may the Lord grant us the forgiveness we beg of him.”

From:
ADDRESS OF JOHN PAUL II

---

TO HIS BEATITUDE CHRISTODOULOS,
***ARCHBISHOP OF ATHENS AND PRIMATE OF GREECE ***
Friday, 4 May 2001

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/2001/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20010504_archbishop-athens_en.html

Subrosa

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Subrosa:

Fortunately we have this:

“For the occasions past and present, when sons and daughters of the Catholic Church have sinned by action or omission against their Orthodox brothers and sisters, may the Lord grant us the forgiveness we beg of him.”

From:
ADDRESS OF JOHN PAUL II

---

TO HIS BEATITUDE CHRISTODOULOS,
***ARCHBISHOP OF ATHENS AND PRIMATE OF GREECE ***
Friday, 4 May 2001

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/2001/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20010504_archbishop-athens_en.html

Subrosa

This is very much appreciated. Could you just assure us that the probably millions upon millions of Greek souls whom the Pope as holder of the Keys excluded from heaven and sent to the eternal fires for many many centuries have been released from hell? I think that the first public statement that the Orthodox go to hell was made by Pope Innocent III in 1210. There have been quite a few million Orthodox born and died since then. There is no mention of any of this. When did the Pope release them?

 

[steve_b]

Fr Ambrose:

So the distinction which you wish to make was non-existent and could not be made for most of history and the Greeks wrote “Catholic” as KATHOLIKOS and “Orthodox” as ORTHODOXOS every time…

When scripture, and all writings of the ECF’s got translated into various languages, don’t you think Greek scholars took upper case and lower case issues into account? Afterall, to miss something so significant as case sensitive words, would be quite an error on the translators part, true?
Fr Ambrose:

For example they wrote: "In the beginning was the word, and the word… " like this:

ΕΝΑΡΧΗΗΝΟΛΟΓΟCΚΑΙΟΛΟΓΟC…

The Latins based their alphabet on the Greek alphabet in the form used by the Etruscans. It also did not have lower case letters until, I think, the Renaissance. Someone may need to check just when the lower case letters were invented for the Latin alphabet. Wasn’t it via the Irish and their creation of uncial letters which then spread to the Continent?

With all the scholarship today, even if lower case letters that we use today came much later in history… When we read ECF’s today, which are translations from Greek and Latin originals, we don’t see confusion or error in translations between words that would properly be capitalized today and what words should be lower case. Afterall, that’s a big part of accuracy in translating.
Fr Ambrose:

So, the answer to your question: “When was the first time [O]rthodox was used” is - always.

In its original, everyword in scripture would be capitalized as well. No lower case words in the beginning. Yet we don’t translate it that way once we have lower and upper case letters available…

Language experts translated these texts from one language to another. We know orthodox and Orthodox mean different things, just like catholic and Catholic… Given all the scholarship today, and all these issues that translators had to take into consideration before translating a text accurately, can you quote from early Church documents that we have today, where and when
[O]rthodox was used to name the Church?

 

[Subrosa]

Fr Ambrose:

This is very much appreciated. Could you just assure us that the probably millions upon millions of Greek souls whom the Pope as holder of the Keys excluded from heaven and sent to the eternal fires for many many centuries have been released from hell? I think that the first public statement that the Orthodox go to hell was made by Pope Innocent III in 1210. There have been quite a few million Orthodox born and died since then. There is no mention of any of this. When did the Pope release them?

A Vatican II document, DECREE ON ECUMENISM "UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO ", states…

"The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation.

It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church."

cin.org/v2ecum.html

going to bed, seeya!

God bless, and my prayers are with you, Father Ambrose, and our Orthodox brethren during Holy Week.

Jerry

 

[steve_b]

Fr Ambrose:

This is very much appreciated. Could you just assure us that the probably millions upon millions of Greek souls whom the Pope as holder of the Keys excluded from heaven and sent to the eternal fires for many many centuries have been released from hell? I think that the first public statement that the Orthodox go to hell was made by Pope Innocent III in 1210. There have been quite a few million Orthodox born and died since then. There is no mention of any of this. When did the Pope release them?

When Paul said

19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: … dissensions, factions , and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. Gal 5:19…21]

Think about it, because of Paul, how many people, not just Galatians, went to hell because they dissnted or divided from the Church?

17I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. 19Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I am full of joy over you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil. [Rm 16:17-19]

Division and dissension are serious evils in Paul’s mind. He puts a damning price on such disobedience. Notice Paul set the bar on that, not the pope.

Why does the pope get such bad press when he uses the same language as Paul did referring to dissenters and dividers?.

 

[LtTony]

Fr Ambrose:

We must remember that there are some Churches which are a little older than Rome… for example, there is the Church of Jerusalem where Saint James the Brother of the Lord was the first Bishop, and there is the Church of Antioch where Saint Peter was the founder of its See and where he lived before he travelled to Rome. These Churches still exist today, standing in a great stream of tradition flowing from the time of the holy Apostles.

What happened to those early Christian communties and others, like Alexandria, that were established by the Apostles??

Jim

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

steve b:

Division and dissension are serious evils in Paul’s mind. He puts a damning price on such disobedience. Notice Paul set the bar on that, not the pope.

So you would agree with the dozens of previous Popes who taught that the Orthodox go into eternal fire as schismatics and heretics?

Are you saying that the Popes since Vatican II who have adoped the contrary teaching are in error? Do you see them as failing to follow the teaching of Saint Paul in this regard?

The teaching of the recent Popes of the last 100 years or so is clear.

**Pope Leo XII ** (A.D. 1823 - 1829): “We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. …For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.’” (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)

**Pope Gregory XVI ** (A.D. 1831 - 1846): “It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved.” (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter)

**Pope Pius IX ** (A.D. 1846 - 1878): “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)

**Pope Leo XIII ** (A.D. 1878 - 1903): “This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.” (Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus)

**Pope Saint Pius X ** (A.D. 1903 - 1914): “It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation.” (Encyclical, Jucunda Sane)

**Pope Benedict XV ** (A.D. 1914 - 1922): “Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)

**Pope Pius XI ** (A.D. 1922 - 1939): “The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. …Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)

**Pope Pius XII ** (A.D. 1939 - 1958): “By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth.” (Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953)

After this time, after Vatican II, this teaching ceases.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

LtTony:

What happened to those early Christian communties and others, like Alexandria, that were established by the Apostles??

Most are still there… all the churches established by the Apostles in Greece are still alive and well and have an uninterrupted connection with the first century. Also the churches of Crete and Cyprus. Jerusalem, Alexandria, etc, etc. Still there, worshipping Christ, Orthodox.

The churches which have almost totally disappeared are the churches of Asia Minor (modern day Turkey.) Apart from the church of Smyrna (modern Izmir) which still exists today, the other six Churches mentioned in the Book of Revelation are gone, but that is not surprising since Saint John tells us that their lampstands will be taken away.

 

[CatherineofA]

Ignatius:

CatherineofA:

The only christian church at the time was the Catholic Church.

Those who I have known in my own background realize that. However, they see them as Christians who happened to be Catholic and not Christians who did something because they were Catholic.

 

[Subrosa]

Fr Ambrose:

So you would agree with the dozens of previous Popes who taught that the Orthodox go into eternal fire as schismatics and heretics?

Are you saying that the Popes since Vatican II who have adoped the contrary teaching are in error? Do you see them as failing to follow the teaching of Saint Paul in this regard?

The teaching of the recent Popes of the last 100 years or so is clear.

**Pope Leo XII **(A.D. 1823 - 1829): “We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. …For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.’” (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)

**Pope Gregory XVI **(A.D. 1831 - 1846): “It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved.” (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter)

**Pope Pius IX **(A.D. 1846 - 1878): “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)

**Pope Leo XIII **(A.D. 1878 - 1903): “This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.” (Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus)

**Pope Saint Pius X **(A.D. 1903 - 1914): “It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation.” (Encyclical, Jucunda Sane)

**Pope Benedict XV **(A.D. 1914 - 1922): “Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)

**Pope Pius XI **(A.D. 1922 - 1939): “The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. …Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)

**Pope Pius XII **(A.D. 1939 - 1958): “By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth.” (Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953)

After this time, after Vatican II, this teaching ceases.

It must be true that these teachings have changed. With respect to who is included in the “Catholic Church,” the Magesterium has expanded it. Please notice the emphesis I placed on certain passages above, then proceed to the quote from the Catechism…

***Who belongs to the Catholic Church? ***

***836 **"All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation."320 *

***837 ** "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"321 ****838 **"The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324 *

 

[CatherineofA]

Ignatius:

May the Holy Spirit guide you in your search for the TRUTH.

Do you believe that the New Testament is the TRUTH? On ecannot deliver what one does not have. If the New Testament is the TRUTH, then the Catholic Church must have the TRUTH. In fact Paul says that the Church (the only one that existed at that time) is “the Pillar and foundation of Truth.”

May the love of God the Father, the peace of His Son Jesus Christ, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you always.

Based on my own experience in my own Protestant background, it is never denied that the Catholic Church was presenting some truths or were used by God to present some truths or that the church put his truths together in a collective written form. However, they see them as Christians or instruments of God who happened to be Catholic and not Christians who did what they did because they had to be Catholic.

 

[CatherineofA]

MrS:

Ignatius:

And no protestant can reference a legitimate source that shows otherwise. They continue to re-write and re-invent “history” to create some level of confidence in their beliefs.

There was no “Roman” Catholic Church either. That title developed from the insult begun by the Church of England. They wanted the exclusive name Catholic. Romish, or Romans eventually became that “Roman Catholic Church”.

You know, sometimes I actually fall asleep with a slight smile thinking about the attacks and perversions laid on my Church. They, the attacks, are one more evidence of the only True Church. We will be persecuted to the end. May we thank God for this cross, and pray for the Grace to bear it for His sake, as He did for ours.

The Protestants I have come across never claim to have their denominational roots in previous centuries. They are aware of when their denominations were founded. However, they believe that they have roots in the Christian faith and that faith has been since Christ. They think Catholics could have carried the faith, but that they are not the sole instrument in which God had to present that faith. They also see the Catholic faith as more concerned with its church policies than scriptural ones. This is what I hear.

 

[prodromos]

LtTony:

What happened to those early Christian communties and others, like Alexandria, that were established by the Apostles??

[John waves from the Church in Thessaloniki (Orthodox BTW)]