In what order did each church appear?

[steve_b]

TobyLue:

I few years ago I happen to be visiting in Guadaljara, Mexico. When we went to mass I noticed from their Sunday Mass Schedule, mass was celebrated at 6am,7,8,9,10,11,12,1pm,2pm
then 5p, 6,7, and 8PM. So can you imagine if the liturgy for each mass 2 1/2 hours?

In 1999, I was in Fatima for the feast day and procession of the Blessed Mother… 1 million Catholics at mass. Definitely the largest mass I’ve been to. I estimate there were approx 100 priests to distribute the Eucharist.

 

[steve_b]

TobyLue:

I’m afraid you are mistaken on this Fr. Ambrose. More people receive communion daily now than before. Yes, there were more priests but people had to fast starting at midnight and not even allowed to drink water. So people going to work would go to mass but not go to communion as they would by then already have had something to eat for breakfast. I used to belong to a youth sodality and we were required to attend mass daily. Very few people would go to communion even at the 7AM mass because the adults would go to work and we would go to school. Maybe two or three elderly ladies would go to communion.

Pre Vat II, when I was an altar boy, serving daily mass at 5:15 a.m. in the convent, I got to go home after mass to have breakfast before school

 

[Lumen_Gentium]

The schedule is almost the same as that of the Immaculate Conception Cathedral in the Archdiocese of Zamboanga, south of the Philippines !!!

PAX

TobyLue:

I few years ago I happen to be visiting in Guadaljara, Mexico. When we went to mass I noticed from their Sunday Mass Schedule, mass was celebrated at 6am,7,8,9,10,11,12,1pm,2pm
then 5p, 6,7, and 8PM. So can you imagine if the liturgy for each mass 2 1/2 hours?

 

[Lumen_Gentium]

That makes the length of the service whether long or short not really significant. The celebration of the Holy Eucharist is. The Second Vatican Council’s decision to shorten the mass doesn’t take away the celebration of the Holy Eucharist.
Fr Ambrose:

Neither do I! A Saturday night Vigil can be from 2 to 5 hours long depending on the feastday.

Well, I said “worldwide.” Europe is just a part of it.
I have yet to hear the Orthodox Church making an impact on figures in Asia and the Latin Americas.
Fr Ambrose:

In Europe it is almost 1 to 1. There are 280 million Roman Catholics and 200 million Orthodox. This is why the Orthodox are delighted to have Pope Benedict and are already looking at ways of combatting together with him the European slide away from Christianity

Ok then, can you still imagine Cardinal Ratzinger, the main celebrant, give Holy Communion to 40,000 people all by himself that day if there were no concelebrators and priests to help him?
This is the idea of the Second Vatican Council, for the Body and Blood of Christ be more accessible to the people, and that’s why lay people can also give Holy Communion.
Fr Ambrose:

The commentator said that they had enough communion hosts for 40,000 people.

 

[Lumen_Gentium]

Alright then. The example or idea was to defend the the second Vatican Council’s changes on the manner of the mass including lay people who can give communion to help the celebrant. Maybe I should have used a better example like a celebration of the mass that sometimes happen in Manila where millions attend and where supply of enough priests is not always guaranteed. Oh, it happens every week when the Catholic Ministry of El Shaddai in The Philippines celebrate mass everytime they come together each week. And they are always in hundreds of thousands and even more than a million in attendance. That’s where the the lay people and the religious becomes very helpful.

PAX

kmktexas:

Even before Vatican II, the distribution of Communon wasn’t limited to the celebrating priest. All other available priests assisted in distributing Communion. And there sure was no shortage of priests at the funeral Mass. I watched and I don’t believe that they used any lay EMHC, just a long line of priests (there might have been deacons too).

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Lumen Gentium:

I have yet to hear the Orthodox Church making an impact on figures in Asia and the Latin Americas.

The Orthodox are not big on self-promotion.

**Japan ** - Orthodoxy is an indigenous Church in Japan. In fact it was so well inculturated by the time of the persecutions in the 17th and 18th centuries against other Christians that when the Catholics and Protestants were expelled from the country the Orthodox were left in peace.

See this Catholic site
cnewa.org/ecc-japan.htm

**Indonesia ** - last month my own Archbishop ordained 6 young Indonesian priests.
russianorthodoxchurch.ws/01newstucture/pagesen/news05/vlilindonesia.html

**China ** - Orthodoxy missionary work since 1686. All the older members of my parish are in fact from Shanghai, Harbin and Hailor and they speak Chinese. They left China in the 1950s when the Communist Government allowed them to leave for other countries.
cnewa.org/ecc-china.htm
and
cs.ust.hk/faculty/dimitris/metro/orth_china.html

Icon of the Holy Martyrs of China

 

[Lumen_Gentium]

Fr. Ambrose,

Since I was reading figures (I hope that wasn’t self-promotion ), I was asking for figures for Asia and the Latin Americas too.


PAX
Fr Ambrose:

The Orthodox are not big on self-promotion.

**Japan **- Orthodoxy is an indigenous Church in Japan. In fact it was so well inculturated by the time of the persecutions in the 17th and 18th centuries against other Christians that when the Catholics and Protestants were expelled from the country the Orthodox were left in peace.

See this Catholic site
cnewa.org/ecc-japan.htm

**Indonesia **- last month my own Archbishop ordained 6 young Indonesian priests.
russianorthodoxchurch.ws/01newstucture/pagesen/news05/vlilindonesia.html

**China **- Orthodoxy missionary work since 1686. All the older members of my parish are in fact from Shanghai, Harbin and Hailor and they speak Chinese. They left China in the 1950s when the Communist Government allowed them to leave for other countries.
cnewa.org/ecc-china.htm

Icon of the Holy Martyrs of China
Kosovo.com domain is for sale for $750,000 - inquire: admin@kosovo.com

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Lumen Gentium:

Since I was reading figures (I hope that wasn’t self-promotion ), I was asking for figures for Asia and the Latin Americas too.

Lumen, I don’t have the figures and I would have to do a web search to find them, but I am lazy and tired and I’ll leave the job to you.

 

[Lumen_Gentium]

That’s alright Fr. Ambrose. The gist is on the importance of the role of the lay people in serving the Holy Eucharist during the mass in the Catholic Church where thousands or even millions can attend at once. That’s why I said: “We’re 4 or 5 times more than Orthodoxes worldwide and we’re more than ever” to stress the significance that eventually lead to figures of which was not meant for self-promotion.

PAX

Lumen, I don’t have the figures and I would have to do a web search to find them, but I am lazy and tired and I’ll leave the job to you.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Lumen Gentium:

That’s alright Fr. Ambrose. The gist is on the importance of the role of the lay people in serving the Holy Eucharist during the mass in the Catholic Church where thousands or even millions can attend at once.

But this was not done by any laypeople at the Pope’s funeral. I understand that many things are prohibited in Rome (altar girls for one) which happen in other parts of the Roman Catholic world. Do you think Pope Benedict will address these issues?

 

[Lumen_Gentium]

Never heard of any altar girls in my part of the Catholic world.
If there were no lay people giving communions during the Pope’s funeral, it’s because there were enough supply of priests who were able to assist in giving communions. Father, in the city where I came from and in the Archdiocese where I was baptized, a thousand attendance of parishioners to a single sunday mass happens. If there are no lay people to help and if there are no concelebrants, it will take many hours for one priest (the celebrant) to give communion to the people. I hope you understand the picture now.

PAX
Fr Ambrose:

But this was not done by any laypeople at the Pope’s funeral. I understand that many things are prohibited in Rome (altar girls for one) which happen in other parts of the Roman Catholic world. Do you think Pope Benedict will address these issues?

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Lumen Gentium:

Never heard of any altar girls in my part of the Catholic world.

 

[Lumen_Gentium]

Fr Ambrose:

http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/htimages2/a023ht_AltarGirl.jpg

A great piece of artwork by Adobe Photoshop, eh?

 

[Subrosa]

Lumen Gentium:

Never heard of any altar girls in my part of the Catholic world.

PAX

Hi Lumen G. -

FYI - Yes, there are alter girls. My niece is one and her younger sister will be one shortly. I live in new England.

Christus Rex,
Subrosa

 

[StMarkEofE]

The Catholic church “appeared” in the east ie Jerusalem and was headed by St. James. The Catholic church remained whole until Rome separated herself from the East and its remaining four patriarchs. (one separating from the five original doesnt make a whole again IMHO) The Catholic church still continues in the Eastern Orthodox churches we see today. Wholey Catholic and Apostolic in every respect. A continuity of almost 2000 years. And this is my fervent and unrelenting belief.

StMarkEofE

 

[Lumen_Gentium]

Hi Subrosa.

Didn’t really know about it. Thanks for sharing the info. In The Philippines, we call altar boys as “sacristan.” Never seen girls as sacristan. Are altar girls prohibited by the Vatican?

PAX

Subrosa:

Hi Lumen G. -

FYI - Yes, there are alter girls. My niece is one and her younger sister will be one shortly. I live in new England.

Christus Rex,
Subrosa

 

[steve_b]

Fr Ambrose:

I believe that the first use of “Orthodox Church” in the sense which you are seeking is in Saint Clement of Alexandria in the year 190 (approx.) in his Stromata, book 1, chapter 9.

I went through all 8 books + elucidations. The only time [o]rthodox or [o]rthodoxy was used, it was always lower case. Catholic was always upper case.

ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-02/anf02-57.htm
Fr Ambrose:

St. John of Damascus (author of the “Exposition of the Orthodox Faith”) died in 750, writes in “On Heresies” that the Monophysites “separated from the Orthodox Church.”

Again, in his writings, turn the pages, [o]rthodox is always lower case. Catholic is capitalized. One is an adjective the other a noun and proper name.

ccel.org/ccel/damascus/icons.ii.html
Fr Ambrose:

However this is not really getting to the nitty gritty of the matter because we are now conditioned to understanding these two words through the prism of the tragic division caused by the Great Schism. One earlier convention of the Fathers was to refer to the Church as Catholic and to the Faith as Catholic because they were adhered to by all Christians everywhere.

The Catholic Church was already known by this proper name.
Fr Ambrose:

Closely allied with this they applied the word Orthodox to mean a Christian who holds the Catholic Faith.

Check again. It was always written [o]rthodox not Orthodox. Adjective not proper name.
Fr Ambrose:

Holding the Catholic Faith makes a man Orthodox. We don’t use the terminology in this way very much any more because the Great Schism caused a shift in our terminology, for both the West and the East. The bond between these two words was broken, although not entirely of course and that is why in documents of the Orthodox Church you will still find the Orthodox using the earlier understanding. It still happens too in the (Roman) Catholic Church but much less; the Pope prays during Mass for “all those who teach the Orthodox Faith.”

Again, [o]rthodox in all your examples it was an adjective, not a noun and proper name. It was not written as [O]rthodox but
[o]rthodox. If [O]rthodox was used, it didn’t come from the sources you name
Fr Ambrose:

Another example: The Nicene Creed which expresses our belief in “One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church” has the proper title of “The Symbol of the Orthodox Faith.”

Again, it is written as [o]rthodox not [O]rthodox
Fr Ambrose:

So there has always been a very close interconnection between the two terms “Catholic” and “Orthodox.”

[O]rthodox as the name of a Church didn’t come from the sources you named. Do you have other examples?

 

[steve_b]

Ignatius:

Absolutely correct. There is in fact only one Church which includes both the Catholic and Orthodox. The rift in the family of Christ is a sin which we are all guilty of to the extent that we do not work diligently to heal it. We need to work to reunite the Church which Jesus Christ founded. We must be one as Christ and the Father are one.

May the peace of Christ be with you.

JPII initiated, and worked tirelessly in his pontificate to heal the schism between the East and West. He made it a core mission for 2 decades.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

steve b:

I went through all 8 books + elucidations. The only time [o]rthodox or [o]rthodoxy was used, it was always lower case. Catholic was always upper case.

ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-02/anf02-57.htm

Again, in his writings, turn the pages, [o]rthodox is always lower case. Catholic is capitalized. One is an adjective the other a noun and proper name.

Which proves nothing!!

In Saint Clement’s day lower case letters just did not exist. So he wrote everything like this: I CLEMENT WROTE EVERYTHING LIKE THIS. I DON’T HAVE A CLUE WHAT YOU MEAN BY LOWER CASE LETTERS. I AM AN ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN WHO HOLDS THE CATHOLIC FAITH.

 

[steve_b]

StMarkEofE:

The Catholic church “appeared” in the east ie Jerusalem and was headed by St. James. The Catholic church remained whole until Rome separated herself from the East and its remaining four patriarchs.

Paul wrote twice to the Corinthians, about divisions, and to the Galatians as well. Then Clement of Rome wrote the Corinthians about their sedition warning them as Paul did, they are in serious danger. It seems it’s the East who had problems right from the get go regarding division. Where as Paul complements the Romans for their obedience to faith with regards to unity of faith.

StMarkEofE:

(one separating from the five original doesnt make a whole again IMHO) The Catholic church still continues in the Eastern Orthodox churches we see today. Wholey Catholic and Apostolic in every respect. A continuity of almost 2000 years. And this is my fervent and unrelenting belief.

StMarkEofE

You must be speaking of Eastern rite Catholics.