A
AugustTherese
Guest
Like when you claim Purgatory is not punishment. Wink.
Last edited:
- Status
G
Gorgias
Guest
It’s expiation, which doesn’t necessarily imply ‘punishment’. I’ll grant that the papal citation uses that word, though. I just got tired of arguing.
T
TULIPed
Guest
What flavor CL? Orthodox, Reformed?
Not long ago I went to a bar mitzvah for one of our good friend’s son. It’s been a while since I no-kidding cried in church, but when that boy started reading from the Torah, I flat out lost it. Very, very embarrassing (but in a wonderful way!).
Not long ago I went to a bar mitzvah for one of our good friend’s son. It’s been a while since I no-kidding cried in church, but when that boy started reading from the Torah, I flat out lost it. Very, very embarrassing (but in a wonderful way!).
C
ConstantLearner
Guest
So you’re saying you don’t follow biblical truths? Or you just say other denominations don’t have it right because you want it that way? You want to be the only one despite the fact that Protestants, too, have valid liturgies and a properly trained and ordained priesthood? Hence, according to your reasoning, they DO receive the Real Presence.
Last edited:
C
ConstantLearner
Guest
Orthodox.
C
ConstantLearner
Guest
I feel that way, too, but AT was wasting a lot of time and space giving me Catechism 101 lessons.Actually, I just don’t advertise my academic background. I’d rather that folks take me on face value, and not on my degree or my role. YMMV.
A
AugustTherese
Guest
After death, where the holy souls cannot self-expiate, yeah, it’s pure and unadulterated temporal punishment. Hence why we atone for their punishments through our penance, applying indulgences for them. It’s okay to concede and admit you’re wrong once-and-awhile. :smiling_face_with_three_hearts:
Last edited:
A
AugustTherese
Guest
Burden of proof reversal and begging the question. I told you to show me where the Bible explicitly states that all proper liturgical elements and dogmatic truths must solely, formally come from the Bible. If you cannot, then this is pointless.
C
ConstantLearner
Guest
And I asked YOU first to show me where it DID, making the Protestant liturgy improper, as you said it was. YOU played the burden of proof reversal card by asking me, but I’m into serious conversation not playing games. I saw you’d been playing that same game, and others, on other threads, with Gorgias, who knows just about everything and expresses it very well, and that poster also refused to continue with you.
What you didn’t realize was that I asked you a question you couldn’t really answer at all without validating the Protestants.
You’ve proven the Protestant liturgy, priesthood, and communion is quite proper as there is no set formula (and by the way, if you want me to PROVE that, go read the entire NT!
). You are right: Jesus set out NO set liturgical formula for worship, and he set down NO specific rules for a validly ordained priesthood. He only asked, with regard to communion, that his followers “do this in memory of me,” which the Protestants do quite well. He also insisted on baptism, and most Protestant churches do that quite well, too.Like Gorgias, I’m not going to play a game with you, so I’ll just say, thank you for proving my point, and have a good weekend.
Last edited:
A
AugustTherese
Guest
All of that from requesting you to show me something from the Bible!?AugustTherese:
And I asked YOU first to show me where it DID, making the Protestant liturgy improper, as you said it was. YOU played the burden of proof reversal card by asking me, but I’m into serious conversation not playing games. I saw you’d been playing that same game, and others, on other threads, with Gorgias, who knows just about everything and expresses it very well, and that poster also refused to continue with you.
What you didn’t realize was that I asked you a question you couldn’t really answer at all without validating the Protestants.
You’ve proven the Protestant liturgy, priesthood, and communion is quite proper as there is no set formula (and by the way, if you want me to PROVE that, go read the entire NT!
Like Gorgias, I’m not going to play a game with you, so I’ll just say, thank you for proving my point, and have a good weekend.
G
Gorgias
Guest
Right – since the time for expiating one’s one guilt has passed, a purgation is necessary.
Silly question, then: if you’re outside of ‘time’, how can you ‘pay’ temporal punishment?
We atone for their guilt, not punishment, though, right?
LOL!
A
AugustTherese
Guest
This is strictly my opinion:
Purgatory is a state more than a place. This state of suffering temporal punishment starts on earth and in time, and will most likely extend beyond physical death into the state or purgatory. Many of the Saints expiated and suffered their temporal punishments here on earth and were made perfectly clean to enter into the Beatific Vision immediately after physical death. And, in most cases, I would presume, suffering the temporal punishment of physical death alone (martyrdom, e.g.) will be enough to satisfy the remission of all temporal punishments thereby bypassing the extended state of purging after physical death. When our souls leave our bodies after physical death, there most likely will be attachments to venial sin, and there will be temporal punishments that need to be satisfied. I would personally suggest that ‘temporal’ can refer to our spiritual state after physical death and not solely to our limited time on earth. Eternity is outside of time, but it includes time; our eternal life begins here in space and time at the moment of our Baptism, lest we die in a state of mortal sin. I doubt that answered your question, but I gave it a shot.
Another not-so-easy question that I may not answer to your liking.
Guilt is removed when a sin is forgiven. So, for example, if a soul in purgatory is suffering temporal punishment, we are most likely atoning for their punishment, not their guilt, since that guilt has most likely been remitted through the Sacraments while on earth. However, and this is where I may stray and be wrong - there will be souls in purgatory that have unforgiven venial sins. So, I would presume that we can atone for both their guilt and their temporal punishment considering they cannot receive the Eucharist, Anointing of the Sick, etc. in purgatory. But, I would not say that we atone solely for their guilt and not their temporal punishment.
Last edited:
G
Gorgias
Guest
Nope. It makes sense!
The only quibble I’d have is the suggestion that “temporal” refers to our “spiritual state after physical death”. The notion of time – as defined by Aristotle and accepted by Aquinas and others – is that time is the measure of change of physical objects. Outside of that context – for instance, in terms of objects that have no physical extension – there isn’t such a thing as “time”. Is there something analogous to time? Maybe; but we can’t know anything about it, since we have no experience of it. So, to say that purgation is a “state more than a place” makes perfect sense – after all, everyone ‘there’ is purely spiritual and without physical extension! – but this understanding also implies that it does not have duration in terms of our understanding of time.
That’s a great distinction! However, it’s also important to remember that purgation isn’t only about “temporal punishment due to sin”, it’s also about “unforgiven venial sin.” For that dimension, there’s guilt being remitted! You’re correct when you allude to that dimension of purgation! With respect to ‘temporal punishment due to sin’, though, I agree – it’s not about remission, but about expiation (which, if you’re letting me make the distinction between one way to expiate (i.e., punishment) and expiation itself, means that purgatory isn’t about punishment, per se).
A
AugustTherese
Guest
It seems you are wanting to put punishment and guilt into this dichotomy and to equivocate between the two. Temporal punishment and purging/cleansing/purification, whatever word(s) you want to use, sure, I suppose you could make a distinction between the words in-of-themselves, but their elements are one.
Every temporal punishment involves a purging of the effect of the sin that effected that temporal punishment. Hence the difference between eternal and temporal punishment. Those souls damned to hell are receiving their due, an eternal punishment that does not purge/purify. However, those holy souls in purgatory are receiving their due, temporal punishment that also purges and purifies. If a soul is being purged, it is because of a sin committed; there is no arbitrary purging that does not involve temporal punishment.
“Evil is is cleansed away by bloody lashes, and a scourging to the inmost being.” - Proverbs 20:30
Last edited:
P
Padres1969
Guest
I have to agree. Protestantism by its very nature rejects the idea of any authority in Rome, other than the authority the Pope has over his own denomination as a group of fellow Christians.
S
stoplooklisten
Guest
Reese, Thomas S.J… Inside the Vatican (pp. 10-11). Harvard University Press
The Great Commission of Matthew 28:19-20 was given to the 11 Apostles. See Matthew 28:16. Judas was unfaithful and was later replaced so that there were again 12 apostles. Peter had the primacy among the 12.
The Church of Jesus Christ is headquartered in Rome rather than Jerusalem because Peter relocated from Jerusalem to Rome.
Last edited:
It depends on the Protestant. The issue for some is not that the pope has authority. Saying he has no authority (primacy) ignores the historic facts of the Church. The issue, then, is the claim of supremacy
- Status