In what ways do the Orthodox defend their independence?

[Sarpedon]

I’ve just started researching eastern Christianity. The Catholic Encyclopedia basically argues that the Orthodox separated because of cultural differences and because the Patriarch of Constantinople wanted more power. The article seems to make good points. I’m interested in how the Orthodox would explain their own position. Do they argue that their tradition of decentralization is the true heritage of the Church, and if so, what historical evidence do they have to support their position? Do they take it from a philosophical angle? Is it really just a matter of culture?

I’m not actually interested in debating about the issue, I’m just interested in the ways that the Orthodox would defend their position in light of traditon, history, and philosophy.

 

[Nine_Two]

The Orthodox point of view is that the Church always had a decentralized organization (Rome had a primacy, was first in honour and had certain privilages but was not a supreme bishop over all other bishops). Rome seperated from the East by usurping powers that had never belonged to it.

As you say, I’m not interested in debating this topic, there is really nowhere to go other than claim the other side is wrong, but that would be the Orthodox take on things.

 

[Montalo]

I’ve just started researching eastern Christianity. The Catholic Encyclopedia basically argues that the Orthodox separated because of cultural differences and because the Patriarch of Constantinople wanted more power. The article seems to make good points. I’m interested in how the Orthodox would explain their own position. Do they argue that their tradition of decentralization is the true heritage of the Church, and if so, what historical evidence do they have to support their position? Do they take it from a philosophical angle? Is it really just a matter of culture?

I’m not actually interested in debating about the issue, I’m just interested in the ways that the Orthodox would defend their position in light of traditon, history, and philosophy.

from OCA

oca.org/QA.asp?ID=26&SID=3

We Orthodox believe that we are the continuation of the ancient Orthodox Christian Church, that we trace our history back to Christ and the apostles, and that the Church was “formally” established on the day of Pentecost. The Roman Catholic Church placed itself outside of this fellowship when it broke off communion with us in the 11th century.

 

[Sarpedon]

What historical evidence do the Orthodox use for their position that the Roman church broke off? Catholics obviously use Irenaeus and such, but do the Orthodox have similar sources?

 

[Montalo]

What historical evidence do the Orthodox use for their position that the Roman church broke off? Catholics obviously use Irenaeus and such, but do the Orthodox have similar sources?

My dearest brother, we do not deny to the Roman Church the primacy amongst the five sister Patriarchates; and we recognize her right to the most honourable seat at an Ecumenical Council. But she has separated herself from us by her own deeds, when through pride she assumed a monarchy which does not belong to her office … How shall we accept decrees from her that have been issued without consulting us and even without our knowledge? If the Roman Pontiff, seated on the lofty throne of his glory wishes to thunder at us and, so to speak, hurl his mandates at us from on high, and if he wishes to judge us and even to rule us and our Churches, not by taking counsel with us but at his own arbitrary pleasure, what kind of brotherhood, or even what kind of parenthood can this be? We should be the slaves, not the sons, of such a Church, and the Roman See would not be the pious mother of sons but a hard and imperious mistress of slaves.’

Nicetas, Archbishop of Nicomedia:
I pulled this quote from a much longer article
orthodoxinfo.com/general/greatschism.aspx

 

[Nine_Two]

What historical evidence do the Orthodox use for their position that the Roman church broke off? Catholics obviously use Irenaeus and such, but do the Orthodox have similar sources?

I wasn’t aware Irenaeus was around at the time of the Schism. What evidence does he provide you? That he uses the term Catholic? As do we.

 

[Nine_Two]

I might add that asking for evidence that the other side uses to back up their claims is entering a debate, which you already said you weren’t willing to do.

 

[Sarpedon]

I wasn’t aware Irenaeus was around at the time of the Schism. What evidence does he provide you? That he uses the term Catholic? As do we.

I was specifically thinking of this quote:

Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere…In this order [list of Roman bishops], and by this succession, the ecclesiastical tradition from the apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us. And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the apostles until now, and handed down in truth.

Against Heresies 3:3:3-4

In terms of starting a debate, I was basically looking for Orthodox resources to study their perspective on the issue. Orthodoxinfo.com is very helpful in this regard.

 

[Nine_Two]

Both oca.org and goarch.org have resources, the book “The Orthodox Church” by Kallistos Ware is an excellent introduction to Orthodox belief and the Orthodox perspective.

 

[Alveus_Lacuna]

In terms of starting a debate, I was basically looking for Orthodox resources to study their perspective on the issue.

amazon.com/His-Broken-Body-Laurent-Cleenewerck/dp/0615183611/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1294346652&sr=8-1

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

His Broken Body by Laurent Cleenewerck

This book does an excellent job of showing both sides of the debate and summarizing the scholarship on both sides. Fr. Laurent contributes very little in the way of his own hypotheses, but he does manage to organize the polemics on both sides and offer some helpful insight. I’ve honestly never read an author so honest and helpful on the topic of papal authority. In short, he basically states that both traditions existed side-by-side, with each group becoming more entrenched in their position over time. It’s pretty convincing, and he most quotes primary sources from both East and West, with occasional commentary for clarity. There is a lot of repetition and perhaps a confused “holographic” ecclesiology, also his own contributions aren’t on the intellectual caliber of many of his sources, but honestly I can’t recommend this book enough. It’s been very helpful for me.

 

[dcointin]

I would caution against the using the article in the Catholic Encyclopedia on the Great Schism as your primary source of information. It’s extremely biased, and lays all the blame on the event on the Orthodox. Most modern Catholics scholars are much more balanced and sympathetic in their view. A good example of this is an article by Aidan Nichols called “A Catholic View of Orthodoxy”, where he addresses the schism in part 2:

christendom-awake.org/pages/anichols/orthodox.html

I’m afraid that going further into detail here would be outside of the scope of this forum.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I would caution against the using the article in the Catholic Encyclopedia on the Great Schism as your primary source of information. It’s extremely biased, and lays all the blame on the event on the Orthodox. Most modern Catholics scholars are much more balanced and sympathetic in their view. A good example of this is an article by Aidan Nichols called “A Catholic View of Orthodoxy”, where he addresses the schism in part 2:

christendom-awake.org/pages/anichols/orthodox.html

I’m afraid that going further into detail here would be outside of the scope of this forum.

Well, it is a Catholic Encyclopedia, guess who’s side they are on

I’ve heard a RC priest have a lesser opinion about the Orthodox, and frankly I was disappointed. But then again there are Orthodox who have lesser opinions on Catholics. I think the divide has been around long enough that some sentiments do run deep. While there are circles in both Catholic and Orthodox who wish for reunification, there are also those who still believe the other side is in heresy.

 

[dcointin]

Well, it is a Catholic Encyclopedia, guess who’s side they are on

I’ve heard a RC priest have a lesser opinion about the Orthodox, and frankly I was disappointed. But then again there are Orthodox who have lesser opinions on Catholics. I think the divide has been around long enough that some sentiments do run deep. While there are circles in both Catholic and Orthodox who wish for reunification, there are also those who still believe the other side is in heresy.

That’s unfortunately true I’ve honestly not met another Eastern Orthodox that is sympathetic toward Catholicism and believes we should be dialoguing to understand each other better and God willing one day reunite, though I’ve met many Catholics here that are. I hope other’s haven’t had that same experience.

 

[Montalo]

That’s unfortunately true I’ve honestly not met another Eastern Orthodox that is sympathetic toward Catholicism and believes we should be dialoguing to understand each other better and God willing one day reunite, though I’ve met many Catholics here that are. I hope other’s haven’t had that same experience.

it may be the attitudes of our different leaderships that are causing this

The Roman Church willingly and gladly accepts that the Eastern Orthodox have valid sacraments are are part of the Church, while not in perfect communion

Holy Orthodoxy, from my readings, rejects that the Western Church had valid sacraments and reject branch theory

I apologize in advance if i am offending anyone by possible generalizations

 

[Nine_Two]

That’s unfortunately true I’ve honestly not met another Eastern Orthodox that is sympathetic toward Catholicism and believes we should be dialoguing to understand each other better and God willing one day reunite, though I’ve met many Catholics here that are. I hope other’s haven’t had that same experience.

Most Orthodox who are here are here for the express purpose of learning to understand Catholicism better, the problem is that despite claiming to hold one teaching they still tend to have twenty different interpretations on everything.

 

[Nine_Two]

it may be the attitudes of our different leaderships that are causing this

The Roman Church willingly and gladly accepts that the Eastern Orthodox have valid sacraments are are part of the Church, while not in perfect communion

Holy Orthodoxy, from my readings, rejects that the Western Church had valid sacraments and reject branch theory

I apologize in advance if i am offending anyone by possible generalizations

The Orthodox Churches do not reject the Western Church as having valid sacraments, we have no opinion, that’s for God to decide. Keeping in mind that sacraments are viewed in a very different light in the East.

And yes, while Orthodox reject Branch theory, so does the Catholic Church. You’re thinking of that “other lung” theory thing, not branch theory (which is an Anglican theory). Absolutely the Orthodox Church rejects this. We claim to be the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, not One Half of the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

 

[Montalo]

The Orthodox Churches do not reject the Western Church as having valid sacraments, we have no opinion, that’s for God to decide. Keeping in mind that sacraments are viewed in a very different light in the East.

And yes, while Orthodox reject Branch theory, so does the Catholic Church. You’re thinking of that “other lung” theory thing, not branch theory (which is an Anglican theory). Absolutely the Orthodox Church rejects this. We claim to be the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, not One Half of the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

i apoligze for my errors and give thanks to you for correcting them

 

[GraceSofia]

it may be the attitudes of our different leaderships that are causing this

The Roman Church willingly and gladly accepts that the Eastern Orthodox have valid sacraments are are part of the Church, while not in perfect communion

Holy Orthodoxy, from my readings, rejects that the Western Church had valid sacraments and reject branch theory

Yes, in Greece and Cyprus, the Orthodox will not allow Catholics to receive Holy Communion with them. However, we Catholics allow them to receive Holy Communion. They openly call us heretics. Search online what happened when the Pope visited Cyprus in June 2010, and how the Bishop of Limassol and other bishops refused to even pray with the Pope. Some very ugly things were said by some Orthodox leaders. Fortunately, the archbishop was very welcoming and charitable.

 

[Nine_Two]

Yes, in Greece and Cyprus, the Orthodox will not allow Catholics to receive Holy Communion with them. However, we Catholics allow them to receive Holy Communion. They openly call us heretics. Search online what happened when the Pope visited Cyprus in June 2010, and how the Bishop of Limassol and other bishops refused to even pray with the Pope. Some very ugly things were said by some Orthodox leaders. Fortunately, the archbishop was very welcoming and charitable.

Keep in mind there is some bad blood in that area of the world towards Catholics, the Orthodox population spent several hundred years under Venetian Rule having their own religion outlawed and being denounced as heretics by their Catholic overlords.

 

[GraceSofia]

I wanted to address this issue:

Montalo: Holy Orthodoxy, from my readings, rejects that the Western Church had valid sacraments…
Nine_Two:The Orthodox Churches do not reject the Western Church as having valid sacraments, we have no opinion, that’s for God to decide.
Montalo: I apologize for my errors and give thanks to you for correcting them.

Montalo was basically correct that the Orthodox reject the validity of Catholic sacraments.
Many Orthodox do not accept the validity of Catholic baptisms; I have even heard them say the Pope is not a baptised Christian.

I said “many” because there is not the central authority that we have in Catholicism and you may find different opinions amongst the Orthodox.

Montalo,
You might find this of interest. The Catholic-Orthodox Dialogue