In your heart of hearts, is Latin required?

[Stitchwort]

When the Church made the change to a liturgy in Latin, she kept the Kyrie in Greek as a sign of unity with our roots and heritage. So it remained for something like 1500 years.

We should return to the Kyrie, and keep at least one other bit in Latin on the same principle. (I would recommend the Agnus Dei as it is the simplest and most repetitive, and the very familiar English translation follows it closely.) So I vote “yes.”

In my own heart of hearts, I would like to see much more of the Mass in Latin. Centuries of tradition, beautiful music, the use of a sacred language (as the Jews have kept Hebrew), a language that, as RC1947 pointed out, no longer suffers from changing meanings, the minor detail that we are members of the Latin rite . . . and probably a few more reasons I can’t think of at the moment.

 

[Bluegoat]

Good post but I have to question what is meant by “vernacular” here. I wouldn’t say Cranmer English with its “thee,” “thou,” “vouchsafe,” “hallowed,” and “wherefore” language is exactly understandable by today’s 5-yr olds. It seems as if the Anglican English has frozen its BCP language, which really had no Christian history behind it, only barbaric roots. It also seems (and this is important) that the Anglicans, who are that attached to their BCP language, would never allow Latin into their liturgy to reciprocate those who are attached to Christian Latin. So (and this is not an attack against you) why is it a surprise that those so attached to much older Latin want nothing to do with a barbaric (and hostile to the Church) language in the liturgy?

Hmm. I’ve belonged to two different Anglican parishes, both quite attached to the BCP, that used Latin if that was what the Mass setting was written in, so I’m not sure that is really the case.

 

[fred_conty]

English is nice because I know what I am praying without trying to translate.
It would be good to see some Latin for unity sake in the universal church.
I think Gregorian Chant now and then would enrich the service.

Some parishes have an excellent liturgy. The people have been trained.
I can tell that they came to contribute not just take.

 

[ProVobis]

Ma pan rację! Niech będzie pochwalony Jezus Chrystus…

I would also submit a positive vote for Church Slavonic. Possibly the most beautiful liturgy I ever heard was (sung) in a russian orthodox church.

Just a note about the words “thee” and “thou”, etc.: these are not so much archaic as they are misunderstood. In English, they are the familiar form of personal pronouns, those terms by which we address those near and dear to us, or at least they used to be.

Thanks for the comments. This shows an interesting contrast between Polish and other languages in that in Polish the second person singular is seldom used in public. (If it is used, it’s used in either a personally affectionate or very insulting fashion.) Instead the third person like “pan” or “pani” is used and is considered most respectful. When one studies these kinds of linguistical nuances, maybe he or she wouldn’t be surprised to find that people learning English find a lot of pronouns inter alia to be most insulting when no such insult is intended. It’s no wonder my Polish-speaking father, a military man and world traveller, despised the English language as much as he did.

 

[ProVobis]

English is nice because I know what I am praying without trying to translate.

Chances are, however, unless they are your own words, you’re praying a translation.

 

[JHow]

Thanks for the comments. This shows an interesting contrast between Polish and other languages in that in Polish the second person singular is seldom used in public. (If it is used, it’s used in either a personally affectionate or very insulting fashion.) Instead the third person like “pan” or “pani” is used and is considered most respectful. When one studies these kinds of linguistical nuances, maybe he or she wouldn’t be surprised to find that people learning English find a lot of pronouns inter alia to be most insulting when no such insult is intended. It’s no wonder my Polish-speaking father, a military man and world traveller, despised the English language as much as he did.

Yes, to RC1947’s point about thee/ thou, Polish follows the same 2nd-person singular, informal when addressing God, so for example the “twoje” below is the form of “your” one would use only with family, and close friends, while “pan” is the formal 3rd-person I used with Pro Vobis whom I don’t know (…and with whom I haven’t drunk “bruderschaft”, but that’s another story ). One of the most obnoxious things an English speaker learning Polish can do is to start using “ty” (“you” 2nd pers. sing.) with people you just met - this would make Pro Vobis’ father cringe, without doubt.

Przyjdź Królestwo twoje (“Your kingdom come…”)

Modern English misses all of this nuance.

 

[ProVobis]

Modern English misses all of this nuance.

Indeed, in many languages a pronoun isn’t even required, except possibly for emphasis. The verb structure already conveys the subject. English unfortunately requires a “he” or “she” or “you” or “I” in its sentences, and this alone can seem insulting or egotistical to foreigners who are new to the English language. Languages which have different noun and verb variations are much more efficient, in my opinion.

 

[Planty_Pall]

The differences between the Masses runs a lot deeper than vernacular vs. Latin. I’d rather have the Missal that I prefer in my least favorite tongue than the Missal I avoid in my favorite tongue.

 

[MarkThompson]

Modern English misses all of this nuance.

Good point, but then again, so do Latin, Koine Greek, so it can’t be a nuance with any real value to the Church or her worship. There are plenty of other languages with oddities and peculiarities: Russian declines nouns differently if you are counting 1, 2-4, or 5+ of them; in the Yucatec language, the availability of the plural depends, not as in English on whether a noun is discrete or indiscrete, but on whether it is animate or inanimate; Ancient Greek has an aorist tense, optative mood, and middle voice which are absent in Latin; etc. On the other hand, the absence of gender marking in English allows speakers the flexibility to do things like say that they went to the movies with “a friend,” without having to divulge whether it was a guy or a girl.

Some of the languages with the most “complicated” grammars are spoken by illiterate tribesmen. The Proto-Indo-European language spoken seven thousand years ago was quite complex, more so than almost all the western and near-eastern language that are descended from it. So it’s a bit precious when a partisan of one modern language identifies some feature his language has managed to retain or develop and then chides other languages for lacking it. After all, Socrates, Jesus, and St. Jerome got along just fine without a thee-you distinction.

 

[Celticnovice]

In my heart of hearts I would very much praise God for an "an ad orientem, incense-filled, chant-soaked, quiet, solemn, reverent, beautiful Mass in English in a glorious neo-Gothic or neo-Romanesque sanctuary. "

But why does my spirit feel like it’s rising to the heavens when I hear Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus Dominus Deus Sabaoth.

Keep the Latin!

 

[Celticnovice]

But when it comes to the actual teaching of the Church, according to the documents of Vatican II, even the ‘verancular’ Mass is supposed (all things considered) to retain some prayers in Latin. (Plus, of course, Greek for the Kyrie).

Would like to see more of this.

 

[JHow]

…So it’s a bit precious when a partisan of one modern language identifies some feature his language has managed to retain or develop and then chides other languages for lacking it. After all, Socrates, Jesus, and St. Jerome got along just fine without a thee-you distinction.

I agree with your general thrust that the OP’s question of whether Latin is required in mass is not really a problem in comparative linguistics.

I think the thee-you criticism, is, at bottom, more a criticism of less-than-elegant English.

For instance, generations of English speakers got along fine saying “…hallowed be thy name…” It didn’t hurt their understanding of the text , even when “thy” became an archaism. What was gained in changing it?

 

[ProVobis]

For instance, generations of English speakers got along fine saying “…hallowed be thy name…” It didn’t hurt their understanding of the text , even when “thy” became an archaism. What was gained in changing it?

Nothing, except the jokesters/illiterates started to praying to Hallowed.

Seriously though, why didn’t Cranmer use “sanctified be Thy/Your name”?

Sanctificetur nomen tuum.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Chances are, however, unless they are your own words, you’re praying a translation.

Incidentally, so is Latin.

 

[ProVobis]

Incidentally, so is Latin.

Not if the Mass is written and promulgated in Latin, which I understand to be the case in the Latin Rite.

Also, Latin has a direct connection to the cross. English has its roots in barbarism.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Not if the Mass is written and promulgated in Latin, which I understand to be the case in the Latin Rite.

Also, Latin has a direct connection to the cross. English has its roots in barbarianism.

The main parts of every Liturgy came from Greek and Aramaic.

 

[Bluegoat]

Nothing, except the jokesters/illiterates started to praying to Hallowed.

Seriously though, why didn’t Cranmer use “sanctified be Thy/Your name”?

Sanctificetur nomen tuum.

I wonder if he was looking for a two syllable word?

 

[ProVobis]

The main parts of every Liturgy came from Greek and Aramaic.

Don’t go giving the Greeks too much credit either. They did after all meddle with much mythology many still believe in today.

 

[ProVobis]

I wonder if he was looking for a two syllable word?

Or copyright his own Mass prayers? Methinks St. Thomas More might have had a point.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Don’t go giving the Greeks too much credit either. They did after all meddle with much mythology many still believe in today.

And the Latin/Romans didn’t? And they got that from the Greeks too. Seems like everything Roman began with the Greeks

I’m just saying that parts of the Mass originated in Aramaic and Greek as the Apostles wrote the early Liturgies in those languages. You will find prayers like the Santcus in the Divine Liturgy which never was in Latin which points to at least a Greek origin.