Inaudible consecration in TLM ?!?

[ozmatt]

I love the idea of Latin Mass, and am very happy that so many people are finding it a valuable tool in their communion with the Lord. I’ve not yet been to a Latin mass but have viewed them on the internet and have read up quite a bit and I have a problem with one aspect of the mass that I hope you might be able to help me with.

I don’t like the fact that the priest says so many of the beautiful words of consecration, in particular during the elevations, INAUDIBLY. Why can we not hear these words too and join our hearts in the prayers they invoke?

 

[proud2bcatholic]

I love the idea of Latin Mass, and am very happy that so many people are finding it a valuable tool in their communion with the Lord. I’ve not yet been to a Latin mass but have viewed them on the internet and have read up quite a bit and I have a problem with one aspect of the mass that I hope you might be able to help me with.

I don’t like the fact that the priest says so many of the beautiful words of consecration, in particular during the elevations, INAUDIBLY. Why can we not hear these words too and join our hearts in the prayers they invoke?

Just because the prayers are said inaudibly doesn’t mean that we can’t join our hearts with the priest’s in offering the sublime sacrifice to our Heavenly Father. I do it at every Mass and rather than being a hindrance, the silence greatly enhances the mystery of it leading to greater contemplation.

Just like all things which are sacred are veiled, I consider the inaudible canon to be a verbal veil of the most sacred moment on earth.

 

[ozmatt]

Well personally, the most moving moment in the Pauline Mass is the prayer of consecration, hearing the priest repeat those words spoken by the lips of Christ and invoking his covenant, and then lifting up the body and blood for worship. I know in that moment what is happening and my heart just overflows with joy in the knowledge that Christ is really present. Its the moment that is one of the motivations for my desire to become a priest.

However, in the Latin mass, the priest kneels, lifts the chalices and the bell rings so many times that it is quite difficult to follow where the moment of transubstantiation occurs.

Also, the congregation doesn’t get to sing the Pater Noster… arguably the most important prayer our Lord gave us. And we are given no audible indication of when to begin the confiteor! It just seems like the congregation is no participant in the mass and more like audience, watching the priests and deacons conducting mass.

 

[proud2bcatholic]

Well personally, the most moving moment in the Pauline Mass is the prayer of consecration, hearing the priest repeat those words spoken by the lips of Christ and invoking his covenant, and then lifting up the body and blood for worship. I know in that moment what is happening and my heart just overflows with joy in the knowledge that Christ is really present. Its the moment that is one of the motivations for my desire to become a priest.

I read those words that the priest says in my missal and I know exactly when he is doing it, I offer those words to God also in my heart, I have found the dead silence at those moments to be some of the most sublime moments in my life.

However, in the Latin mass, the priest kneels, lifts the chalices and the bell rings so many times that it is quite difficult to follow where the moment of transubstantiation occurs.

It is not difficult, the priest bows to where his head is almost parallel to the altar and whispers the powerful words of the consecration, I can tell everytime when he begins the words of the consecration, it is not difficult. Then after he speaks the words, he genuflects (bells ring once) then raises the Lord (bells ring three times), then genuflects again (bells ring once). Then he says the words of consecration for the blood over the chalice, profoundly bending his head when doing so, then genuflects and raises the chalice just like he does for the Body. It is not difficult at all to follow.

Also, the congregation doesn’t get to sing the Pater Noster… arguably the most important prayer our Lord gave us

.

Yep, Iove not having to sing the Pater Noster, although I’m not opposed to singing it either, but not singing the Pater Noster allows me to carefully meditate on the words of the Pater Noster without having to worry about if I’m in tune or not.

And we are given no audible indication of when to begin the confiteor! It just seems like the congregation is no participant in the mass and more like audience, watching the priests and deacons conducting mass.

It is quite simple to know when to begin the confiteor if you are following along in the missal, and if you are not following along in the missal just watch the servers, they’ll bow their bodies and say it aloud, it would be hard to miss that.

By the way I couldn’t disagree with you more about participation, it was after that I discovered the TLM, that my interior participation has progressed tremedously.:bowdown2:

 

[AcaciaFern]

Well personally, the most moving moment in the Pauline Mass is the prayer of consecration, hearing the priest repeat those words spoken by the lips of Christ and invoking his covenant, and then lifting up the body and blood for worship. I know in that moment what is happening and my heart just overflows with joy in the knowledge that Christ is really present. Its the moment that is one of the motivations for my desire to become a priest.

However, in the Latin mass, the priest kneels, lifts the chalices and the bell rings so many times that it is quite difficult to follow where the moment of transubstantiation occurs.

Also, the congregation doesn’t get to sing the Pater Noster… arguably the most important prayer our Lord gave us. And we are given no audible indication of when to begin the confiteor! It just seems like the congregation is no participant in the mass and more like audience, watching the priests and deacons conducting mass.

Most people who are only used to the new Mass find this aspect of the Latin Mass difficult. It’s no wonder. Usually the most active part of our participation at Mass is hearing what’s being said and saying our parts. The words of consecration are beautiful, and we are accustomed to hearing them said out loud. Take those aspects away, and the Mass doesn’t feel right.

It might help if you approach the Traditional Mass slightly differently. First, be open to the possibility that hearing and speaking are not the only way to participate actively at Mass. Second, don’t ‘watch’ the priest offer Mass, but offer the Mass with him, in your mind. There is no audience. Follow the priest’s every step as if you were he. Pray all the priest’s prayers in the missal as you follow his movements. When you get to the words of consecration, could it possibly make sense to say them quietly, even inaudibly? Try it.

Just because we’re used to doing things a certain way doesn’t mean it’s the only way to do it. The Traditional Mass does offer us a different way to participate in the holy Sacrifice of the Mass. We may hear and say fewer words out loud, but pray just as well.

Most people who like the TLM do not watch the priest as if they were an audience watching a performance. They are acting and praying with the priest. Everyone knows what the beautiful words of consecration are, and sometimes it feels very precious to just ponder that joy in one’s heart - in silence.

 

[Hellisreal]

I am sorry, I did not hear you. Can you repeat?

 

[ozmatt]

Second, don’t ‘watch’ the priest offer Mass, but offer the Mass with him, in your mind. There is no audience. Follow the priest’s every step as if you were he. Pray all the priest’s prayers in the missal as you follow his movements. When you get to the words of consecration, could it possibly make sense to say them quietly, even inaudibly? Try it.

I do this in the Pauline Mass already, and it is extremely powerful. I’m just uncomfortable with having to do the same in my mind, because without the audible prompts, my participation in the consecration, and my ability to follow him, is effectively dependent on my imagination.

In a recording of the TLM which I’ve watched, because his speech is inaudible to the congregation, (which the microphone caught nonetheless) the canon was extremely rushed which really put me off. If he’s rushing the prayers, the legitimacy of that consecration is questionable. The priest simply can’t rush it that way in the mass of Paul VI… the congregation wouldn’t be too happy!

Most people who like the TLM do not watch the priest as if they were an audience watching a performance. They are acting and praying with the priest. Everyone knows what the beautiful words of consecration are, and sometimes it feels very precious to just ponder that joy in one’s heart - in silence.

I’ve seen and heard of TLM where during the inaudible parts of the mass, the choir is leading the congregation in non-concentus music. In other cases i’ve seen and heard of people praying the rosary during the mass. This is greatly disrespectful !!

What I’m trying to point out is that, IMHO, the inaudible aspect to so much of the TLM, in not directly engaging with the congregation, creates the potential for distraction (with song and personal prayer). Mass is the time for communing with God in a community sense; there are ample opportunities for interior personal prayer throughout the week, and i would never feel the need for so much silent prayer during a mass. These silent moments seem to create a great distance between the presider and the faithful, a disconnect which for me indicates a lack of congregation involvement which can potentially evolve into distraction from the sacred mystery, which I believe to be a great insult to our Lord, and a much less likely in the Pauline Mass.

Just because we’re used to doing things a certain way doesn’t mean it’s the only way to do it. The Traditional Mass does offer us a different way to participate in the holy Sacrifice of the Mass. We may hear and say fewer words out loud, but pray just as well.

Please don’t construe my words as meaning I see the TLM as useless or its adherents to be misled. The traditions do need to be upheld for those who wish to come into contact with Christ in that ancient way. While I’m sure there are many who can and enjoy following interiorly these parts of the mass, for me I imagine is it much more effective and valuable to have the priest loudly and proudly invoking the words of Christ.

I ardently desire to hear the Mass in Latin, as it was said by so many great Church fathers. It is beautiful! But I also want to hear my priest declare to the church and the world “Hoc Est Enim Corpus Meam”. I want to sing the Pater Noster! Looks like I just might need to become a priest if I want such an experience.

 

[stmaria]

ozmatt;3009262]Well personally, the most moving moment in the Pauline Mass is the prayer of consecration

,
You are so right. This beautiful prayer of consecration.

FOR THIS IS MY BODY.

FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD OF THE NEW AND ETERNAL COVENANT:** THE MYSTERY OF FAITH**: WHICH SHALL BE SHED FOR YOU AND **FOR MANY **UNTO THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS

hearing the priest repeat those words spoken by the lips of Christ

Yes those words of Christ “mystery of faith” which were given to the apostles by Christ himself! And those words of Christ that His blood will be shed not for all but "for many".

However, in the Latin mass, the priest kneels, lifts the chalices and the bell rings so many times that it is quite difficult to follow where the moment of transubstantiation occurs.

It is wonderful to realize that when the bells ring, at that moment of consecration, God is present on the altar with all of his angels.And the beautiful SILENCE! What is happenning on the altar is not of this world. It is Heaven coming down on the altar. Words cannot be spoken. We have been taken back in time to the moment of Calvary.

Also, the congregation doesn’t get to sing the Pater Noster… arguably the most important prayer our Lord gave us

.

How wonderful it is that the Our Father is not sung by the congregaton but only by the priest. And in the low Mass the Our Father is prayed in reverent silence.

And we are given no audible indication of when to begin the confiteor! It just seems like the congregation is no participant in the mass and more like audience, watching the priests and deacons conducting mass.

How beautiful are the Prayeres at the foot of the altar! And the double confeitor!! How humbling and reverent. And how reverent it is for the priest and the faithful to face God in the Tabernacle instead of the priest facing the people. And how wonderful is the participation of the people by praying in silence with the priest and responding in Latin and singing in Latin. You are so right!!

 

[blackrobe]

At least in the TLM one knows exactly what the priest is saying. My experience of the NO as celebrated these days has been that one never knows when the celebrant will “improve on” the prayer as written. NB this is a comment on the behavior of certain priests, not on the rite.

JSA

 

[fix]

In other cases i’ve seen and heard of people praying the rosary during the mass. This is greatly disrespectful !!

Why? Are you claiming those people who did it were disrespectful?

 

[maurin]

Well personally, the most moving moment in the Pauline Mass is the prayer of consecration, hearing the priest repeat those words spoken by the lips of Christ and invoking his covenant, and then lifting up the body and blood for worship. I know in that moment what is happening and my heart just overflows with joy in the knowledge that Christ is really present. Its the moment that is one of the motivations for my desire to become a priest.

However, in the Latin mass, the priest kneels, lifts the chalices and the bell rings so many times that it is quite difficult to follow where the moment of transubstantiation occurs.

Also, the congregation doesn’t get to sing the Pater Noster… arguably the most important prayer our Lord gave us. And we are given no audible indication of when to begin the confiteor! It just seems like the congregation is no participant in the mass and more like audience, watching the priests and deacons conducting mass.

And isn’t Holy Mother Church so good to Her children that she allows them a choice! We must remember to thank God for the Wisdom He has given His Church. Although we are all one in His Body, the Church recognizes that as the foot is used for walking, and while the ear is used for hearing they are all parts of the same body, but have different functions!

As you are moved by the Ordinary Rite, there are many who are moved by the Extraordinary one!

My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother: That grace may be added to thy head, and a chain of gold to thy neck. Prov, 1:8-9.

 

[bpbasilphx]

However, in the Latin mass, the priest kneels, lifts the chalices and the bell rings so many times that it is quite difficult to follow where the moment of transubstantiation occurs.

Easy–when the priest genuflects and the bell rings, first the consecration of the bread has occurred, then the consecration of the wine.

 

[AcaciaFern]

What I’m trying to point out is that, IMHO, the inaudible aspect to so much of the TLM, in not directly engaging with the congregation, creates the potential for distraction (with song and personal prayer). Mass is the time for communing with God in a community sense; there are ample opportunities for interior personal prayer throughout the week, and i would never feel the need for so much silent prayer during a mass. These silent moments seem to create a great distance between the presider and the faithful, a disconnect which for me indicates a lack of congregation involvement which can potentially evolve into distraction from the sacred mystery, which I believe to be a great insult to our Lord, and a much less likely in the Pauline Mass.

Please don’t construe my words as meaning I see the TLM as useless or its adherents to be misled. The traditions do need to be upheld for those who wish to come into contact with Christ in that ancient way. While I’m sure there are many who can and enjoy following interiorly these parts of the mass, for me I imagine is it much more effective and valuable to have the priest loudly and proudly invoking the words of Christ.

I ardently desire to hear the Mass in Latin, as it was said by so many great Church fathers. It is beautiful! But I also want to hear my priest declare to the church and the world “Hoc Est Enim Corpus Meam”. I want to sing the Pater Noster! Looks like I just might need to become a priest if I want such an experience.

In your original post you asked for help with the inaudible aspect of the TLM, an aspect which you didn’t like. It seems that you have many reasons to not like it, and there is no point in arguing against someone’s likes and dislikes. I don’t think you would be happy attending TLM on a regular basis.

You made a good point about Mass which many people share: that ‘Mass is the time for communing with God in a community sense.’ I think that’s one reason the Novus Ordo Mass will be around for a very long time. Good luck on becoming a priest, though I hope singing the Pater Noster is not the only reason why you want to be a priest!

 

[palmas85]

I do this in the Pauline Mass already, and it is extremely powerful. I’m just uncomfortable with having to do the same in my mind, because without the audible prompts, my participation in the consecration, and my ability to follow him, is effectively dependent on my imagination.

In a recording of the TLM which I’ve watched, because his speech is inaudible to the congregation, (which the microphone caught nonetheless) the canon was extremely rushed which really put me off. If he’s rushing the prayers, the legitimacy of that consecration is questionable. The priest simply can’t rush it that way in the mass of Paul VI… the congregation wouldn’t be too happy!

I’ve seen and heard of TLM where during the inaudible parts of the mass, the choir is leading the congregation in non-concentus music. In other cases i’ve seen and heard of people praying the rosary during the mass. This is greatly disrespectful !!

What I’m trying to point out is that, IMHO, the inaudible aspect to so much of the TLM, in not directly engaging with the congregation, creates the potential for distraction (with song and personal prayer). **Mass is the time for communing with God in a community sense; there are ample opportunities for interior personal prayer throughout the week, and i would never feel the need for so much silent prayer during a mass. **These silent moments seem to create a great distance between the presider and the faithful, a disconnect which for me indicates a lack of congregation involvement which can potentially evolve into distraction from the sacred mystery, which I believe to be a great insult to our Lord, and a much less likely in the Pauline Mass.

Please don’t construe my words as meaning I see the TLM as useless or its adherents to be misled. The traditions do need to be upheld for those who wish to come into contact with Christ in that ancient way. While I’m sure there are many who can and enjoy following interiorly these parts of the mass, for me **I imagine is it much more effective and valuable to have the priest loudly and proudly invoking the words of Christ. **

I ardently desire to hear the Mass in Latin, as it was said by so many great Church fathers. **It is beautiful! But I also want to hear my priest declare to the church and the world **“Hoc Est Enim Corpus Meam”****. I want to sing the Pater Noster! Looks like I just might need to become a priest if I want such an experience.

Martin Luther would be proud of this post. Why some of the observations made are exactly what old Martin said, pretty much word for word. I’m not surprised though. Particularly when our poster here brought up the disgraceful and quite possibly heretical praying of the Rosary during Mass:thumbsup:

Can’t have a discussion like this without bring the Rosary into it though. I suppose that our poster means well, at least I hope he does, however, with his points having been made and refuted a thousand times over the years the whole post somehow to me appears to be nothing more than a last ditch attempt to swing a few people on the edge over to the progressive side.

As far as engaging the congregation, doesn’t the congregation bear some, heck maybe even all of the responsibility to engage itself? I read in a book once about a young priest visiting Germany about the time of the introduction of the vernacular Mass. He said to this old couple " Just think, now everyone will hear and understand everything!!!"

The old man of the couple replied" With all respect Father, if someone can’t take the time to learn what Agnus Dei means, why would you think they will learn what Lamb of God means?"

Very telling, very simple and very very true. People are in the end result responsible for their own level of participation in the Mass.

If you feel the calling to be a Priest I say go for it:thumbsup: . Actually, the Church could probably use you. That is if you are a male of course. Although, truth be told, many would rather play at being Priests instead of making the supreme comittment of actually becoming one

 

[patrick457]

Also, the congregation doesn’t get to sing the Pater Noster… arguably the most important prayer our Lord gave us. And we are given no audible indication of when to begin the confiteor! It just seems like the congregation is no participant in the mass and more like audience, watching the priests and deacons conducting mass.

This was just an old custom in the Roman Church…even by the time of St. Gregory the Great, the Priest is the one who recites the Pater:

…But we say the Lord’s Prayer directly after the Canon for the following reason; because it was the custom of the Apostles to consecrate the sacrificial oblation solely with this prayer. And it seemed to me extremely unsuitable to say over the oblations the Canon, which was composed by some learned man, and not to say over his Body and Blood that prayer which our Redeemer Himself composed. Moreover, amongst the Greeks the Lord’s Prayer is said by all the people, but with us by the priest alone. In what, therefore, have we followed the customs of the Greeks, since we have either revived old customs of our own, or established new and useful ones, in which nevertheless we are not shewn to have imitated others?

Letter of St. Gregory to John, Bishop of Syracuse-598 A.D.