Incarnation and Authority

[Eden]

A pope can’t lead you to truth. Nor a priest.

But you feel by posting here at Catholic Answers, you can?

The ministerial priesthood is Biblical:

In Scripture, we see our Lord definitively choosing and sending apostles to act as mediators between God and men. This, again, is the very definition of a priest. For example, after the Resurrection, Jesus appears to the apostles in the upper room and says to them:

“‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’” (John 20:21–23).

Jesus gave the power to forgive and retain sins to the apostles. This is a priestly ministry (cf. Lev. 19:21–22). In 2 Corinthians 2:10, Paul says, “If I have pardoned anything for your sakes I have done it in the person of Christ” (DRV).

Paul evidently heard confessions in Corinth, carrying out this priestly commission of the apostle. He goes on to say that the apostle has been given the ministry of reconciliation: “So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God” (2 Cor. 5:20).

That Paul uses the word we in describing this priestly ministry may indicate that he is including the elders and bishops he was traveling with and/or ministering with as priests as well, but the point remains the same: Paul describes his ministry as a priestly one.

Jesus not only gave the authority to forgive sins to the apostles, but he gave them divine, infallible authority to proclaim the gospel as well. “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me” (Luke 10:16). This too is a priestly function. The apostles act in the place of God as mediators between God and men. In 2 Corinthians 2:17, Paul describes this priestly work as such: “For we are not as many, adulterating the word of God; but with sincerity, as from God, before God, in Christ we speak” (DRV).

Bishops (episkopoi) are successors of the apostles according to Scripture. When the apostles were choosing a successor for Judas, the text describes the office of apostle as a bishopric: “and [Judas’] bishopric (episkope) let another man take” (Acts 1:20, DRV). Bishops, it can be inferred, are called to carry on the apostolic ministry and the apostles’ priestly function. The apostolic office in succession is called a bishopric.

Presbyters are seen as priests as well. James 5:14–15 puts it quite plainly:

“Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders (presbyteroi) of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.”

Notice that Scripture does not say we should go to anyone because we are all priests as Christians. It singles out the presbyters and clearly depicts them as having the power and authority to act as mediators in the forgiveness of sins and healing.

catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0503fea4.asp

 

[Eden]

In case anyone is wondering why I am bothering to respond to every point, that is because this is an example of a poster who thinks that if they pile on enough topics, there is no way anyone can respond to every assertion. That way, they hope the silence will support their claims.

Thus it is writen call no man father execpt God.

I see you are taking this literally. So, who is your earthly father, if not a “father”?

The Elders of the Church are Called “Fathers” and the Faithful “Children”

Matt. 23:9 - Jesus says, “call no man father.” But Protestants use this verse in an attempt to prove that it is wrong for Catholics to call priests “father.” This is an example of “eisegesis” (imposing one’s views upon a passage) as opposed to “exegesis” (drawing out the meaning of the passage from its context). In this verse, Jesus was discouraging His followers from elevating the scribes and Pharisees to the titles of “fathers” and “rabbis” because they were hypocrites. Jesus warns us not to elevate anyone to the level of our heavenly Father.

Matt. 23:8 – in this teaching, Jesus also says not to call anyone teacher or rabbi as well. But don’t Protestants call their teachers “teacher?” What about this commandment of Jesus? When Protestants say “call no man father,” they must also argue that we cannot call any man teacher either.

Judges 17:10; 18:19 - priesthood and fatherhood have always been identified together. Fatherhood literally means “communicating one’s nature,” and just as biological fathers communicate their nature to their children, so do spiritual fathers communicate the nature of God to us, their children, through (hopefully) teaching and example.

Eph. 3:14-15 - every family in heaven and on earth is named from the “Father.” We are fathers in the Father.

Acts 7:2; 22:1,1 John 2:13 - elders of the Church are called “fathers.” Therefore, we should ask the question, "Why don’t Protestants call their pastors “father?”

1 Cor. 4:15 - Paul writes, “I became your father in Christ Jesus.”

1 Cor. 4:17 - Paul calls Bishop Timothy a beloved and faithful “child” in the Lord.

2 Cor. 12:14 - Paul describes his role as parent over his “children” the Corinthians.

Phil. 2:22 - Paul calls Timothy’s service to him as a son serves a “father.”

1 Thess. 2:11- Paul compares the Church elders’ ministry to the people like a father with his children.

1 Tim. 1:2,18; 2 Tim. 1:2-3 - Paul calls Timothy his true “child” in the faith and his son.

Titus 1:4 - Paul calls Titus his true “child” in a common faith. Priests are our spiritual fathers in the family of God.

Philemon 10 - Paul says he has become the “father” of Onesimus.

Heb. 12:7,9 - emphasizes our earthly “fathers.” But these are not just biological but also spiritual (the priests of the Church).

1 Peter 5:13 - Peter refers to himself as father by calling Mark his “son.”

1 John 2:1,13,14 - John calls the elders of the Church “fathers.”

1 John 2:1,18,28; 3:18; 5:21; 3 John 4 - John calls members of the Church “children.”
1 Macc. 2:65 - Mattathias the priest tells his sons that Simeon will be their “father.”

There are just too many references in which men are called “father” in the Bible to fit in one post. Please read the rest here:

scripturecatholic.com/the_priesthood.html

We are sinners and unless we repent of our sin and ask the Lord Jesus to be our savior we are lost

We are born again by “water and the spirit” - that’s Baptism.
As far as repentance, Christ instituted the Sacrament of Penance which is clearly in the Bible:

scripturecatholic.com/confession.html

It is unfortunate that because you do not have the fullness of truth in your separated state from the Church Christ founded, you are unable at this time to benefit from the graces received at penance.

 

[Eden]

Whos incarnation does the bible speak of. There is one christ and one resurrection. Christ was not incarnated. Nor is any man.

Please, I’m really very curious where you got this idea that we believe apostles are “incarnated” or do you mean “reincarnated” into bishops and popes. And I disagree that Christ was not incarnated. He most certainly was. Incarnation means “put into a human body”. Are you denying that Christ is God incarnate (God in a human body)?

 

[Joseph_Smith]

It is interesting how people are always trying to disprove the bible in these times. So you declare that his church is on the earth. The bible tells us that we are seated in heavenly places. It means the spirit transends the things of this earth. The church of Jesus is made up not of flesh and bones nor building nor men claiming greatness or dressed in fine robes and pretty hats. The kingdom is made up of born again christians. Those who have actually had a born again experence. The only authoity that exist in God church is him. Men have no authority. So you follow either God or man. God is a living breathing spirit. Born again christians are not converted at the age of 2 and we can’t come into the kingdom by being blessed by a priest or anyman.
When God knocks on your heart and you know your sinful nature and you repent and ask jesus to be your Lord and ask for forgiveness that is when you are born again. With out being born again the bible is just a book to you. obidence is just a word. You really will think you have something. Until the day he states to you depart from me you workers of lawlessness.
So by what authority have you been saved by what authority do you come to the thrown of God. I come to him as a son. He hears my voice and i hear his. The Church of Jesus is made up of the outcast, the poor, people whom this world is not worthy of. Jesus did not come to play church. When was the last time God put his hand on your sholder. Or the last time he spoke a word of encourgement to you.
There is a real difference in knowing God and knowing about God. So you been going to church along time and here is a guy asking you some hard questions. Why do you think that is. Maybe Jesus is calling to you. You know in the bible it tells us that false Jesus will arise. My jesus is the one that paid the price for my sin and offered me forgiveness of my sin. It cost him everything and me nothing. But then to know Jesus has cost me everything. My wife my son my bussiness my health my good name. I was persucated for years for my faith. I have only sufferd a little bit but i know Christ and his suffering and his faithfulness. Will knowedge of men save you. When you pass on are you really going to go to the judgement only to hear depart from me your workers of lawlessness. You see the rabis of Israel were doing the same when Jesus came. It was ritual and no a real relationship existed.
How do i know i have a relationship. I can feel him here even now. I have heard him speak often. He even preaches at times. And there have been time when i get tired i ash God one night the Lord is anything i am doing helping and that night i met a man who was going to kill himself and he didn’t because of something i had done 2 weeks before you see the kingdom of God is spirit. We who are born again are spirit. Our God is spirit. We may serve on the earth but we are citizens of a spiritual kingdom. That kingdom exist on this planet. So why are you teaching and what are you treaching. Are you teaching so people can be catholic. Or are you teaching so that people can meet Jesus.
Membership in the catholic, the baptist the assemblies or any earthy church will not profit you. The only membership that will make any difference in the end in your membership with the spirit of Christ. Are you and Christ one. Salvation comes by Christ Spirit becomng apart of you for all times and thus you are a new creature in Christ Jesus. Your authority comes thru the blood of redemption and a real relationship with God. So have you heard God speak today. Do you really want God or you concept of God. Hard questions but really it is time to answer them.
I will pray for you all, may you come to know him and the power of the age to come.

 

[Truthstalker]

Joseph,

I think, but I am not sure, that you will agree that Jesus came and dwelt among us, that God took on physical form and became man. I note a repetition in your postings about God being spirit. Well, God became man. He ate, slept, grew tired, woke up, died and rose from the dead. After He rose from the dead, He ate fish. He has a physical body.

He also set up this church-thing before He left. What relationship do you see between Him taking on the nature of man and the nature of the church he established, and in particular its authority? As human beings, we are body, soul and spirit. Jesus came to minister to all of us, not just our spirits or our souls, but to us body, soul and spirit. That has an impact on how you look at what He means to do in setting up the church.

 

[cocot]

. What happened to the church of the martyrs, of fervor, of faithfulness unto death, of All that Stuff?

It’s right here with me. As I sit in church and look around at my neighbors acting inappropriate or wince as the priest does another liturgical abuse, I say to myself, it’s all on them. I have my own soul and the souls of my family to worry about. As I participate in the mass and if I am worthy that day to recieve the Eucharist, who is better than me ? I have the Truth of the Church with all the Saints and the fervor and faithfullness unto death of the martyrs and all that stuff.

 

[JonathanKinsman]

Joseph Smith;

I just got off the phone with the Holy Spirit. He said He doesn’t know where you got the idea that God is speaking to you about those things you keep putting in these forums. And He asked me to relay to you His wish that you get out and talk to some people, visit the sick, feed the hungry and get some rest.

He thinks you really, really need it.

Love,

Jonathan

Pax Christi

 

[Truthstalker]

I wish the situation were as simple as saying that the Catholic position is one in which there is authority that can be trusted, as opposed to a Protestant individualism, in which it is Jesus and me alone. I find instead an insistence in many Protestants that agrees with the Catholic position: Church as Mother, Church as authoritative is not exclusively an Orthodox/Catholic construct, despite current pop Protestantism with its exhaltation of the individual. There is authority in the Church.