Incarnation is a false concept

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Bahman said:
You don’t really need the basic reason for incarnation to discuss its validity.
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Apparently, from this position, post 154, the Catholic Church is no longer needed because God is now dismissed by this thread.
 
Bahman said:
That definition really didn’t help me. Could you please elaborate?
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Any true definition about the Incarnation is based on God’s Divine Existence. One needs to believe in God as He is. This thread does not have the power to change God.
 
Bahman said:
That definition really didn’t help me. Could you please elaborate?
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Modern Catholic Dictionary

SUBSISTENCE

Definition

The existence proper to a whole and uncommunicated substance or reality. Subsistence is that perfection whereby a nature is completed and becomes uncommunicated, that is, whereby it becomes itself and distinct from all other beings. Something, therefore, subsists when it has being and operation through itself, not through union with another. Applied to God as the being who exists essentially or by identity within his essence; the being who is completely self-sufficient for existence and activity. Also applied by the Second Vatican Council to the Roman Catholic Church, in which, it is said, subsists the fullness of the Church founded by Christ. (Etym. Latin subsistentia, self-contained existence; subsistere, to stay, abide; to stand under.)

Christ is a divine person with a human nature rather than a human person with a divine nature. Also Christ is not both a human person and a divine person subsisting. There is only one subsisting.

The usual course is that something that has its own nature and substantial form is a substance of its own. That would imply that there are two substances in Jesus Christ due to two natures. This view contradicts the doctrines as determined by the Church in early councils, of:
  • the hypostatic union
  • Jesus is one subsisting thing (i.e., suppositum or hypostatis)
However, duality of nature does not necessarily imply duality of first substances. * A subsisting thing always comprises more than its nature alone (there are also accidents and the concrete). So there is no contradiction in that there is only one hypostatis or suppositum and two natures in the person of Christ.
  • St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Part III, Q2, A3.
 
Vico said:
Modern Catholic Dictionary

SUBSISTENCE

Definition

The existence proper to a whole and uncommunicated substance or reality. Subsistence is that perfection whereby a nature is completed and becomes uncommunicated, that is, whereby it becomes itself and distinct from all other beings. Something, therefore, subsists when it has being and operation through itself, not through union with another. Applied to God as the being who exists essentially or by identity within his essence; the being who is completely self-sufficient for existence and activity. Also applied by the Second Vatican Council to the Roman Catholic Church, in which, it is said, subsists the fullness of the Church founded by Christ. (Etym. Latin subsistentia, self-contained existence; subsistere, to stay, abide; to stand under.)

Christ is a divine person with a human nature rather than a human person with a divine nature. Also Christ is not both a human person and a divine person subsisting. There is only one subsisting.

The usual course is that something that has its own nature and substantial form is a substance of its own. That would imply that there are two substances in Jesus Christ due to two natures. This view contradicts the doctrines as determined by the Church in early councils, of:
  • the hypostatic union
  • Jesus is one subsisting thing (i.e., suppositum or hypostatis)
However, duality of nature does not necessarily imply duality of first substances. * A subsisting thing always comprises more than its nature alone (there are also accidents and the concrete). So there is no contradiction in that there is only one hypostatis or suppositum and two natures in the person of Christ.
  • St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Part III, Q2, A3.
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And there is one subsisting which subsists in one nature before incarnation?
 
Bahman said:
And there is one subsisting which subsists in one nature before incarnation?
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The Person of the Son of God is the person, and there is no change of person. There is no created person for Jesus Christ. The union of Divine nature and the human is in the created human nature.

From Post #108:
Article 7. Whether the union of the Divine nature and the human is anything created?
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I answer that, The union of which we are speaking is a relation which we consider between the Divine and the human nature, inasmuch as they come together in one Person of the Son of God. Now, as was said above (I, 13, 7), every relation which we consider between God and the creature is really in the creature, by whose change the relation is brought into being; whereas it is not really in God, but only in our way of thinking, since it does not arise from any change in God. And hence we must say that the union of which we are speaking is not really in God, except only in our way of thinking; but in the human nature, which is a creature, it is really. Therefore we must say it is something created.
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The easy way to keep everything straight is …

God is Three Divine Persons in one supernatural nature which is the Most Holy Trinity.

The Second Divine Person of the Most Holy Trinity is One Divine Person with two natures, supernatural Divinity and natural human.
 
The Christian sense of the Incarnation is based on love.
Love pours itself out.
Hence God is love even before we exist to know about it. God has always existed as a communion of love between persons…Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

The Son is in this community in eternity, or outside of time.

Because God is love, and love pours itself out by nature…
God becomes one of us in all ways except sin. He want us to be one with him, and because we have declined that relationship, he comes to be one of us.

Even though the Second Person has always been, eternally, he comes to us in the fullness of time. He becomes incarnate, taking on human nature.
 
Vico said:
The Person of the Son of God is the person, and there is no change of person. There is no created person for Jesus Christ. The union of Divine nature and the human is in the created human nature.
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This I don’t understand. You need a person for union, so he could hold both natures.
 
grannymh said:
The easy way to keep everything straight is …

God is Three Divine Persons in one supernatural nature which is the Most Holy Trinity.

The Second Divine Person of the Most Holy Trinity is One Divine Person with two natures, supernatural Divinity and natural human.
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But human nature was assumed after incarnation hence we are dealing with a change.
 
clem456 said:
The Christian sense of the Incarnation is based on love.
Love pours itself out.
Hence God is love even before we exist to know about it. God has always existed as a communion of love between persons…Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

The Son is in this community in eternity, or outside of time.

Because God is love, and love pours itself out by nature…
God becomes one of us in all ways except sin. He want us to be one with him, and because we have declined that relationship, he comes to be one of us.

Even though the Second Person has always been, eternally, he comes to us in the fullness of time. He becomes incarnate, taking on human nature.
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A divine being cannot take on a human nature because that is a change.
 
Bahman said:
This I don’t understand. You need a person for union, so he could hold both natures.
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Yes, only one person, not two. The union is not of persons but human and divine nature in one Person.

Boethius gave the meaning of person for creatures: “The person is an individual substance of a rational nature”. Individual substances subsist in themselves, that is, they do not require some other substance for their being. Individual substance is not assumable by another. Regarding the creatures, per St. Thomas Aquinas, the soul is a part of a human person so cannot be a primary substance, although it may be an individual it is not an individual substance. There are two meanings of substance and one is the same as the Greek ousia – essence. The second sense refers to an individual thing within the genus of substance, of which St. Thomas Aquinas gives four. One of these is hypostasis. Person signifies relation directly and essence indirectly but it signifies “relation” as an hypostatis when we are talking about divinity.

The Council of Chalcedon teaches that Christ is not a human person, rather, His personality is that of the second person of the Trinity.
 
Bahman said:
Here there is the argument:
  1. God is changeless
  2. Incarnation is simply the union of God and human
  3. From (2) we can deduce that we have only God before incarnation and unified God and human after incarnation
  4. From (3) we can deduce that God undergo a change upon incarnation
  5. From (1) and (4) we can deduce that incarnation is a false concept
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The argument at (3) fails because human reason, existing in the sequence of time, can only imagine existence in eternity. God exists in eternity and in eternity it is reasonable to posit that all moments in time are eternally present. Therefore, the Son in eternity has two natures and God does not change.
 
Vico said:
Yes, only one person, not two. The union is not of persons but human and divine nature in one Person.

Boethius gave the meaning of person for creatures: “The person is an individual substance of a rational nature”. Individual substances subsist in themselves, that is, they do not require some other substance for their being. Individual substance is not assumable by another. Regarding the creatures, per St. Thomas Aquinas, the soul is a part of a human person so cannot be a primary substance, although it may be an individual it is not an individual substance. There are two meanings of substance and one is the same as the Greek ousia – essence. The second sense refers to an individual thing within the genus of substance, of which St. Thomas Aquinas gives four. One of these is hypostasis. Person signifies relation directly and essence indirectly but it signifies “relation” as an hypostatis when we are talking about divinity.

The Council of Chalcedon teaches that Christ is not a human person, rather, His personality is that of the second person of the Trinity.
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I wish this forum let us save posts. Is there a way to do that? This made something click in my head.
 
Kurisu35712 said:
I wish this forum let us save posts. Is there a way to do that? This made something click in my head.
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This is what I do. I click the post number in the top right corner. That takes me to a page titled “View Single Post.” That can be printed. I use control P
At the bottom of this view single post, one can click “close this window” and return to the thread.

You can also go to the very top where the “post address link” is. Not sure what it is called. I copy that and put it in an e-mail to myself. Thus, I have access to the post until it is pulled for some reason.

Note: Do not click red triangle at top. This goes to a place where one reports a post that is against Forum policy, etc.

Good luck!
 
Bahman said:
A divine being cannot take on a human nature because that is a change.
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Apparently, you do not accept the usual definition for a Divine Person. That is sad because a true Divine Person, like Jesus Christ, can easily assume a human nature without changing His own Divine Nature. Divine trumps human.

In fact, a Divine Person loves you in your human nature. 👍
 
Vico said:
Yes, only one person, not two. The union is not of persons but human and divine nature in one Person.

Boethius gave the meaning of person for creatures: “The person is an individual substance of a rational nature”. Individual substances subsist in themselves, that is, they do not require some other substance for their being. Individual substance is not assumable by another. Regarding the creatures, per St. Thomas Aquinas, the soul is a part of a human person so cannot be a primary substance, although it may be an individual it is not an individual substance. There are two meanings of substance and one is the same as the Greek ousia – essence. The second sense refers to an individual thing within the genus of substance, of which St. Thomas Aquinas gives four. One of these is hypostasis. Person signifies relation directly and essence indirectly but it signifies “relation” as an hypostatis when we are talking about divinity.

The Council of Chalcedon teaches that Christ is not a human person, rather, His personality is that of the second person of the Trinity.
Click to expand...
So we are dealing with one person and two natures after incarnation and one person and one nature before incarnation. Do you agree that incarnation is an event?
 
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