Incarnation of God

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Hi. We have many good models for understanding the holy trinity. But how about incarnation?

Please give me some good models for understnading the incarnation. How Lord Jesus is incarnation of God?

Thank You
God bless you
 
We have many good models for understanding the holy trinity
I’m not sure what you mean. 🤷

If you can give some examples maybe we can give a model of the incarnation. 🙂
 
in·car·na·tion - the doctrine that the second person of the Trinity assumed human form in the person of Jesus Christ and is completely both God and man.

John 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.


**Jesus is God Incarnate, conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of a woman, fully God and fully man, Divine and human. **
 
Hi. We have many good models for understanding the holy trinity. But how about incarnation?

Please give me some good models for understnading the incarnation. How Lord Jesus is incarnation of God?

Thank You
God bless you
Well first of all he was born of a woman so he does assume the nature of a man.
 
I think anything that we come up with would probably be over simplistic, but something strikes me as a decent analogy. In most energy efficient homes we have double paned windows. There is a layer of glass on both sides, and in between is a medium that helps to absorb energy and prevent it from passing as easily. Now some of these windows only have air in there. Others have different gases that help improve the efficiency.

Jesus is much like that. His humanity is the glass. We all have the humanity. You and I have both sides of the glass. But Jesus has God infused between the panes. He is still fully a human, but he has something special in between that helps increase what he is, without detracting from or making him less a human. He still has all the properties of the original, but better in between to make him more than just a man, but still fully man.
 
I’m not sure what you mean. 🤷

If you can give some examples maybe we can give a model of the incarnation. 🙂
Example for models of the trinity:

God knows himself: So in God we have a person who knows and a person who is knowed.

God loves himself: So in God we have a person who loves and a person who is loved.

God(First Person,The Father) knows himself(Second Person, The Son) and loves himself(Third Person, The Holy Spirit)
in·car·na·tion - the doctrine that the second person of the Trinity assumed human form in the person of Jesus Christ and is completely both God and man.

**John 1:14 - **And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

**Jesus is God Incarnate, conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of a woman, fully God and fully man, Divine and human. **
Do you mean God changed to flesh?
Well first of all he was born of a woman so he does assume the nature of a man.
Thank you. But I’m looking for a model.
I think anything that we come up with would probably be over simplistic, but something strikes me as a decent analogy. In most energy efficient homes we have double paned windows. There is a layer of glass on both sides, and in between is a medium that helps to absorb energy and prevent it from passing as easily. Now some of these windows only have air in there. Others have different gases that help improve the efficiency.

Jesus is much like that. His humanity is the glass. We all have the humanity. You and I have both sides of the glass. But Jesus has God infused between the panes. He is still fully a human, but he has something special in between that helps increase what he is, without detracting from or making him less a human. He still has all the properties of the original, but better in between to make him more than just a man, but still fully man.
Thank you. But I think with your model, God is limited between the panes of Lord Jesus’ bode. On the other hand, God exist in every places, so we must have him infused between the panes, too.
How can I prove these problems?
 
As for the Holy Trinity model:
There is the old model of a shamrock as the English call it, or three leave clover.
Three leaves but only one plant.

Accoding to St. Thomas Acquinas the three Persons of the Holy Trinity are distinguished from each other only by relationship, not substance. You have to think about that for a while.
There is only one God, and one divine substance. All three persons have all the divine substance. Jesus said: “All that the Father has I have.”

Yeah, well how can there be three persons? 😊

Creatures have subtance, and they act. An athlete has the body to run a four minute mile.
God’s mode of existence is very different from ours. He is his acts. His substance is his acts. In Acquinas’s words, God’s essence is to exist. “I AM who AM”. – Exodus

To the Father is attributed the creative power. To the Son is attributed the Knowledge of God. To the Holy Spirit is attributed the Love of the Father and Son for each other. So, through these activitied, the Son proceeds from the Father and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and Son. But all three are eternal and all three are the whole God.

That’s as far as we can understand in this life.

With Jesus, finding an analoguous model in nature is difficult, because Jesus has two natures but one personhood.
The human soul and body of Jesus were created two thousand years ago. But Jesus was not a human person. He was a Divine Person, the Son of God.
We cannot completely understand this in this life because it’s a mystery.

It might help our understanding to consider these simple facts:

!. the mother of Jesus was Mary
  1. but the father of Jesus was not a man. The Father was God whose love for the Son was attributed to the Holy Spirit who “overshadowed” Mary according to Archangel Gabriel.
  2. since Jesus was not a product of the human race, Mary having contributed only half of what is normally required, Jesus is not assigned human personhood, any more than he would be assigned Vulcan or Martian personhood
  3. therefore, Jesus had a human nature but Divine Personhood
    The human nature in body and soul could make decisions of a practical matter such as what to eat for dinner, but in moral matters the Divine Personhood was in full control with the human soul in full submission because it had the Beatific Vision and perfect understanding of right and wrong
 
Thank you. But I think with your model, God is limited between the panes of Lord Jesus’ bode. On the other hand, God exist in every places, so we must have him infused between the panes, too.
How can I prove these problems?
By your supposition that he must be limited to the panes you are limiting God to present to only one place. We believe him to be omnipresent, but specially present in certain places.

Take the Ark of the Covenant. God was on the mercy seat. The temple, God was in the Holy of Holies. Inside the Eucharist. Does that mean God was/is confined to those places? No. He was there and elsewhere. But he was there in a special way. God was in Jesus in a special way. A way that he is not present to us in our lives. I don’t see it as a problem myself.

Like I said though, any idea we use to try and explain God inside of Jesus is likely over simplistic.
 
The Father is the Unknowable and Ineffable Creator of all things, the first principle and that hypostasis which is the Unbegotten Begetter of the Son. The Father is said to be “unknowable” in apophatic theology, not because the Father is somehow non-existent in a strict sense, nor because he is too far above us that he so chooses to be unknowable, but because his fullness can never be described. He is without qualities in this respect, not because he is lacking, but because we are.

The Son is the eternally begotten Self-emanation of the Father, the exact Image of the Father, and the means through which the Father becomes knowable. The Son perfectly demonstrates the nature of the Father to be known by his creations, and shows that his unknowability without the Son is due to our limited intellect, not of any fault or lacking in the Divine. In cataphatic thelogy, where God is described positively rather than negatively, it is God as revealed through the Son that is described. The Son is a distinct hypostasis from the Father, though finding his being in the Father as one who from the Father was manifested from eternity to eternity.

The nature of God to act proceeds from the Father through the Son as the Holy Spirit, a personal and distinct hypostasis from both. We call the Holy Spirit the Holy Spirit because it proceeds from both the Father and the Son, where both the Father and the Son are Spirit and are Holy. The best name we can give the Spirit is Love, for it is by the Spirit that the Father loves the Son, by the Spirit that the Son loves the Father, and by the Spirit that both love the world.

Thus, it is by the Love that is the Spirit that the Father became known to the world in the Son, the Son having assumed unto himself the human nature of “Jesus of Nazareth”, who is called the Christ by virtue of appointment by God. From the being of the Christ, the Divine Person of the Son speaks, and within the being of Christ are both the human nature of body and soul and the Divine Nature shared by the hypostases of the Trinity. Thus, Paul saw it fitting to declare, “In him, the fullness of the Godhead dwelt bodily”, and “in him was the fullness of God pleased to dwell”

It should be remembered that the incarnation of the Son in Jesus of Nazareth does not in any way limit the ability of the Son, or any other Divine Person, to incarnate through the assumption of one or more additional human natures; thus, we cannot strictly define incarnation, as one of the above has done, by the assumption of the human nature into the Divine Personality of the Son in the being of Jesus of Nazareth. We must only define the incarnation as the assumption of any human nature by any member of the Trinity at any time. Though the West knows the incarnation of God chiefly through Jesus, it must be conceded, as was by Saint Thomas Aquinas, that the Son may incarnate in any and all human natures, as the potency of the Uncreated cannot be diminished by what is created, namely, the human nature of the Christ.
 
therefore, Jesus had a human nature but Divine Personhood
The human nature in body and soul could make decisions of a practical matter such as what to eat for dinner, but in moral matters the Divine Personhood was in full control with the human soul in full submission because it had the Beatific Vision and perfect understanding of right and wrong
Hi. What do you exactly mean “personhood”?

If the personhood was in full control with the human soul in full submission, why you call in it divine?

Thank you
 
God was in Jesus in a special way. A way that he is not present to us in our lives. I don’t see it as a problem myself.
Hi, What difference between way he is in Jesus and way he is peresent to us? What do you ecactly mean “special way”?

Thank you.
 
The Father is the Unknowable and Ineffable Creator of all things, the first principle and that hypostasis which is the Unbegotten Begetter of the Son. The Father is said to be “unknowable” in apophatic theology, not because the Father is somehow non-existent in a strict sense, nor because he is too far above us that he so chooses to be unknowable, but because his fullness can never be described. He is without qualities in this respect, not because he is lacking, but because we are.

The Son is the eternally begotten Self-emanation of the Father, the exact Image of the Father, and the means through which the Father becomes knowable. The Son perfectly demonstrates the nature of the Father to be known by his creations, and shows that his unknowability without the Son is due to our limited intellect, not of any fault or lacking in the Divine. In cataphatic thelogy, where God is described positively rather than negatively, it is God as revealed through the Son that is described. The Son is a distinct hypostasis from the Father, though finding his being in the Father as one who from the Father was manifested from eternity to eternity.

The nature of God to act proceeds from the Father through the Son as the Holy Spirit, a personal and distinct hypostasis from both. We call the Holy Spirit the Holy Spirit because it proceeds from both the Father and the Son, where both the Father and the Son are Spirit and are Holy. The best name we can give the Spirit is Love, for it is by the Spirit that the Father loves the Son, by the Spirit that the Son loves the Father, and by the Spirit that both love the world.

Thus, it is by the Love that is the Spirit that the Father became known to the world in the Son, the Son having assumed unto himself the human nature of “Jesus of Nazareth”, who is called the Christ by virtue of appointment by God. From the being of the Christ, the Divine Person of the Son speaks, and within the being of Christ are both the human nature of body and soul and the Divine Nature shared by the hypostases of the Trinity. Thus, Paul saw it fitting to declare, “In him, the fullness of the Godhead dwelt bodily”, and “in him was the fullness of God pleased to dwell”

It should be remembered that the incarnation of the Son in Jesus of Nazareth does not in any way limit the ability of the Son, or any other Divine Person, to incarnate through the assumption of one or more additional human natures; thus, we cannot strictly define incarnation, as one of the above has done, by the assumption of the human nature into the Divine Personality of the Son in the being of Jesus of Nazareth. We must only define the incarnation as the assumption of any human nature by any member of the Trinity at any time. Though the West knows the incarnation of God chiefly through Jesus, it must be conceded, as was by Saint Thomas Aquinas, that the Son may incarnate in any and all human natures, as the potency of the Uncreated cannot be diminished by what is created, namely, the human nature of the Christ.
Hi

Do you mean know call Lord Jesus, as incarnation of God, because God showed himself by him?

Thank you
 
Hi

Do you mean know call Lord Jesus, as incarnation of God, because God showed himself by him?

Thank you
Hi, Javid. I don’t really understand what you’re asking. Can you clarify? Thanks.

InXC.
 
Hi. What do you exactly mean “personhood”?

If the personhood was in full control with the human soul in full submission, why you call in it divine?

Thank you
“Personhood” is a bad translation of hypostasis. Hypostasis implies a particular being. Jesus has a human nature and will, and a divine nature and will, but they are unified in the particular being of the Son, because the Son has assumed the humanity into himself.

Hypostasis is contrasted with ousia, which implies a substantial or essential being. The trinity is three hypostases in one ousia, or three particular beings in one substantial or essential being.

Be blessed! InXC.
 
Hi. We have many good models for understanding the holy trinity. But how about incarnation?

Please give me some good models for understnading the incarnation. How Lord Jesus is incarnation of God?

Thank You
God bless you
I think we misinterpret the idea of incarnation, as if God descended from heaven in a literal sense. How I like to think of it is that, in Jesus, our concept of what/who ‘God’ is came to be fulfilled by someone who was fully human- JESUS. So, in the incarnation we changed our idea of God- God was no longer a heavenly being, but the man, Jesus. We traded in the old idea of God (the Heavenly ruler or Zeus-like figure), which we could no longer believe in and perhaps never really existed, for something which we could believe in- Jesus, who exemplified the reality human suffering and love.

So, in the incarnation we Jesus became our God- another way of putting it is that God (i.e. that which we identify as God) became flesh.

God is not a ‘being’ as such, but rather what we chose to believe in and love is ‘God’. And for Christians, this is Jesus.
 
I think we misinterpret the idea of incarnation, as if God descended from heaven in a literal sense. How I like to think of it is that, in Jesus, our concept of what/who ‘God’ is came to be fulfilled by someone who was fully human- JESUS. So, in the incarnation we changed our idea of God- God was no longer a heavenly being, but the man, Jesus. We traded in the old idea of God (the Heavenly ruler or Zeus-like figure), which we could no longer believe in and perhaps never really existed, for something which we could believe in- Jesus, who exemplified the reality human suffering and love.

So, in the incarnation we Jesus became our God- another way of putting it is that God (i.e. that which we identify as God) became flesh.

God is not a ‘being’ as such, but rather what we chose to believe in and love is ‘God’. And for Christians, this is Jesus.
That’s not intended at all in the doctrine of the incarnation. I agree that God did not “come down” literally. That’s impossible, as it limits God to a specific place. God is in all places and no places. But it is wrong to say that we “swapped” God for Jesus. That’s absurd, and to suppose that reflects the frailty of human reason. To say, “Oh, well that Zeus figure never really existed, but Jesus did, so let’s worship Jesus instead of the Father” isn’t the point; in fact, its completely contrary to what Jesus said in John 17, when he said, “And this is the eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.” Jesus reflects the existence of something greater than his humanity, and you need to understand that.

That Jesus was human was necessary, not for sacrifice, but because that is how the Son speaks to us: through men. Jesus was born a man, and at some point no later than his baptism, and possibly as early as his birth, his humanity was assumed into the being of God; that is to say that he had a human will and a divine will, with the human will being in subjection to the divine, and united to it within the single particular being of the Son.

But the Son is not Jesus, as that would limit the Son to a creation, i.e., the body and soul of Jesus of Nazareth. The Son transcends the person of Jesus of Nazareth, because the Son can assume any humanity unto himself and speak to us again. What Jesus revealed through the incarnation is the relationship between the Father and the Son, between two of the particular beings in the trinity, which exist outside of time as one essence. Nothing was swapped, and God’s nature remained unchanged.
 
That’s not intended at all in the doctrine of the incarnation. I agree that God did not “come down” literally. That’s impossible, as it limits God to a specific place. God is in all places and no places. But it is wrong to say that we “swapped” God for Jesus. That’s absurd, and to suppose that reflects the frailty of human reason. To say, “Oh, well that Zeus figure never really existed, but Jesus did, so let’s worship Jesus instead of the Father” isn’t the point; in fact, its completely contrary to what Jesus said in John 17, when he said, “And this is the eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.” Jesus reflects the existence of something greater than his humanity, and you need to understand that.
But Jesus says “to have seen me is to have seen the Father”, and “I and the Father are one”- in other words (as I read it), Jesus IS God- not in the sense of a Zeus-like being, but in the sense that here is finally someone we can believe in and love.

Is it really absurd to think that Jesus changed our conception of who ‘God’ is? Before, ‘God’ was some being (who possibly doesn’t exist) sending floods and famines, and directing history. After Jesus, ‘God’ is the infant in the manger, the man of sorrows dying on the Cross, his heart wounded by love.

Yes, as Christians we retain the abstraction of the “Father”- the wholly invisible and transcendent, but this perhaps represents the infinitude of human longing more than a ‘being’.
 
But Jesus says “to have seen me is to have seen the Father”, and “I and the Father are one”- in other words (as I read it), Jesus IS God- not in the sense of a Zeus-like being, but in the sense that here is finally someone we can believe in and love.

Is it really absurd to think that Jesus changed our conception of who ‘God’ is? Before, ‘God’ was some being (who possibly doesn’t exist) sending floods and famines, and directing history. After Jesus, ‘God’ is the infant in the manger, the man of sorrows dying on the Cross, his heart wounded by love.

Yes, as Christians we retain the abstraction of the “Father”- the wholly invisible and transcendent, but this perhaps represents the infinitude of human longing more than a ‘being’.
The Father is unknowable and indescribable, not by abstraction or potential non-existence, but by greatness. He is described as nothing on account of excellence, rather than nothing on account of privation. The Father is known through the Son, but the Son is not the Father. From the Father extends the Image, called the Son, after and through whom men were made. To see the Father through the Son means that the Son makes known what excellence and glory naturally conceal. It means nothing to the effect that the person of the Son is somehow a superior concept to that of the Father, or rather the person of the Father may not exist. That, frankly speaking, is heresy.

The Father is as much a particular being as the Son, but they are “One” because God is One essence. The trinity, as I explained previously, is three particular beings (called “hypostases” or “persons”) united in a single essence; thus, God is actually one essential being (ousia). The Father is as real as the Son, though he is unknown without the Son.

It really seems that you don’t understand trinitarian theology or the real importance of the incarnation of the Son. If you would like me to explain anything further, please feel free to ask.

InXC.
 
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