Incarnation: questions and thoughts

[jfhh]

According to church teaching,

Is it possible he suffered from disease and other illness?
If so, could he have had something like diabetes?
What about mental illness?
Personality quirks?
Could he have been born with some birth defects?
If so, could he have been intersex and chosen to live male?
Was he sexually attracted to the opposite sex?
Is it possible he could have suffered from SSA?
Could he have dated as a young man prior to his ministry?
Wouldn’t it have been weird to literally date God and be God’s girlfriend?

I think that’s enough for now.

I’d like to know (1) what does the church magisterium or theologian magisterium have to say about these things? (2) How do these questions and their answers make sense? These kinds of questions make me think that Jesus couldn’t have been man and God. If Jesus was truly man, he could have had a mental illness just like any other man. But God with a mental illness? That sounds crazy, pun intended. God with a personality quirk? Also sounds crazy. God making use of the “facilities”? That sounds odd too. It being possible for God to have had – even if he didn’t, he could have chosen to – a girlfriend? Sounds crazy. And though it didn’t happen, Jesus could have chosen – if His plans were different – to marry a girl and then what would have happened on their honeymoon? A human mortal woman making God “happy” in that way? That just boggles my mind that that was something God could have chosen to do even though it didn’t and was not what happened to be God’s eternal plan.

And God calling a woman, “Mom” … that sounds mystifying too.

The word I am looking for is incongruity. I think it seems this way b/c it inserts God into these mundane realities whereas I think of God as transcending all this.

I mean imagine if Jesus had been born not in the 1st century but in the 20th. Imagine also that before his sacred ministry he happened to be a child actor like doing Home Alone movies or in sitcoms on the Disney channel. Wouldn’t it be just strange to imagine Jesus, God, being on TV or in theaters in that way? I mean let’s say then he began his ministry and some of us believed his message and believed he was God. Then we rent these Home Alone movies and see the sitcom reruns and see God literally playing a character in them. That could have happened if God’s plan had been different.

Let’s assume Jesus was left handed. Then that means God is literally left handed.

Incarnation. There’s something about it that just doesn’t make sense.

 

[CentralFLJames]

According to church teaching,

Is it possible he suffered from disease and other illness?
If so, could he have had something like diabetes?
What about mental illness?
Personality quirks?
Could he have been born with some birth defects?
If so, could he have been intersex and chosen to live male?
Was he sexually attracted to the opposite sex?
Is it possible he could have suffered from SSA?
Could he have dated as a young man prior to his ministry?
Wouldn’t it have been weird to literally date God and be God’s girlfriend?

I think that’s enough for now.

I’d like to know (1) what does the church magisterium or theologian magisterium have to say about these things? (2) How do these questions and their answers make sense? These kinds of questions make me think that Jesus couldn’t have been man and God. If Jesus was truly man, he could have had a mental illness just like any other man. But God with a mental illness? That sounds crazy, pun intended. God with a personality quirk? Also sounds crazy. God making use of the “facilities”? That sounds odd too. It being possible for God to have had – even if he didn’t, he could have chosen to – a girlfriend? Sounds crazy. And though it didn’t happen, Jesus could have chosen – if His plans were different – to marry a girl and then what would have happened on their honeymoon? A human mortal woman making God “happy” in that way? That just boggles my mind that that was something God could have chosen to do even though it didn’t and was not what happened to be God’s eternal plan.

And God calling a woman, “Mom” … that sounds mystifying too.

The word I am looking for is incongruity. I think it seems this way b/c it inserts God into these mundane realities whereas I think of God as transcending all this.

I mean imagine if Jesus had been born not in the 1st century but in the 20th. Imagine also that before his sacred ministry he happened to be a child actor like doing Home Alone movies or in sitcoms on the Disney channel. Wouldn’t it be just strange to imagine Jesus, God, being on TV or in theaters in that way? I mean let’s say then he began his ministry and some of us believed his message and believed he was God. Then we rent these Home Alone movies and see the sitcom reruns and see God literally playing a character in them. That could have happened if God’s plan had been different.

Let’s assume Jesus was left handed. Then that means God is literally left handed.

Incarnation. There’s something about it that just doesn’t make sense.

Hi, Jfhh. I can tell that you are a thinking person. That is good. This means you are trying to ponder and understand God. The Holy Spirit is calling you to understand His truths.

While it is true that we humans can not fully understand the great mystery of how God can exist simultaneously as both fully God and fully man we know Jesus to be this great mystery. We believe that God became man to be “just like us” in all ways except sin so that we could relate more intimately with Him and so we could be inspired to follow His example on how to become His children and attain a greater nature.

The Church has not given specific teachings on many of the things you are speculating on. We do know from theological insights that Jesus was full man therefor he could feel love, pain, hunger etc. just like you and I could - and probably more so since his emotions were pure and unadulterated by sin. In other words love was more vivid and authentic since there was not one iota of selfish motive in Christ’s love. We humans too often love since its benefits us rather than love another unconditionally and selectively. Christ loved everyone unconditionally - even those who persecuted Him and hated him.

In general we believe that Jesus was made physically perfect and unblemished since this is the traditional critera for the ancient Jewish Pascal Lamb (which Christ becomes on the Cross). Christ would not have had any deformities or any mental abnormalities but could become fatigued, restless, tired, joyful, angry, sorrowful etc. since these are all pure human emotions and conditions. When Jesus tripped and fell he bruised, and cut and hurt himself just like you or would have. He would have suffered insect bits and sweated and felt the heat of the sun just like you and I would have. He may have even occasionally gotten ill from the cold virus or had headaches from fasting due to low blood sugar etc.

Being both God and man Jesus elected in His divinity to not hold back from fully experiencing the human condition (except for sin) since they would be unauthentic to “emulate” or “approximate” the human condition and God is always truthful, unbiased and authentic.

I hope this helps you some,
James

 

[Eucharisted]

According to church teaching,

Is it possible he suffered from disease and other illness?
If so, could he have had something like diabetes?
What about mental illness?
Personality quirks?
Could he have been born with some birth defects?
If so, could he have been intersex and chosen to live male?
Was he sexually attracted to the opposite sex?
Is it possible he could have suffered from SSA?
Could he have dated as a young man prior to his ministry?
Wouldn’t it have been weird to literally date God and be God’s girlfriend?

I think that’s enough for now.

I’d like to know (1) what does the church magisterium or theologian magisterium have to say about these things? (2) How do these questions and their answers make sense? These kinds of questions make me think that Jesus couldn’t have been man and God. If Jesus was truly man, he could have had a mental illness just like any other man. But God with a mental illness? That sounds crazy, pun intended. God with a personality quirk? Also sounds crazy. God making use of the “facilities”? That sounds odd too. It being possible for God to have had – even if he didn’t, he could have chosen to – a girlfriend? Sounds crazy. And though it didn’t happen, Jesus could have chosen – if His plans were different – to marry a girl and then what would have happened on their honeymoon? A human mortal woman making God “happy” in that way? That just boggles my mind that that was something God could have chosen to do even though it didn’t and was not what happened to be God’s eternal plan.

And God calling a woman, “Mom” … that sounds mystifying too.

The word I am looking for is incongruity. I think it seems this way b/c it inserts God into these mundane realities whereas I think of God as transcending all this.

I mean imagine if Jesus had been born not in the 1st century but in the 20th. Imagine also that before his sacred ministry he happened to be a child actor like doing Home Alone movies or in sitcoms on the Disney channel. Wouldn’t it be just strange to imagine Jesus, God, being on TV or in theaters in that way? I mean let’s say then he began his ministry and some of us believed his message and believed he was God. Then we rent these Home Alone movies and see the sitcom reruns and see God literally playing a character in them. That could have happened if God’s plan had been different.

Let’s assume Jesus was left handed. Then that means God is literally left handed.

Incarnation. There’s something about it that just doesn’t make sense.

Jesus is like us in all ways save sin.

 

[FCEGM]

According to church teaching,

Is it possible he suffered from disease and other illness?
If so, could he have had something like diabetes?
What about mental illness?
Personality quirks?
Could he have been born with some birth defects?
If so, could he have been intersex and chosen to live male?
Was he sexually attracted to the opposite sex?
Is it possible he could have suffered from SSA?
. . …

You might find this helpful:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2611982&postcount=18

Incarnation. There’s something about it that just doesn’t make sense.

It does when one has the Faith to see it. That doesn’t mean, thought, we will ever fully understand this great Mystery - we are, however, called to rejoice in and find our salvation through it.

 

[SimonArizona]

According to church teaching,

Is it possible he suffered from disease and other illness?
If so, could he have had something like diabetes?
What about mental illness?
Personality quirks?
Could he have been born with some birth defects?

It is unseemly that He who was Lord over sickness and disease and cured others, should Himself fall sick. St. Athanasius in his brilliant writing On the Incarnation answers these questions, and remarks that the type of death He suffered was necessary to put the flesh that was powered by The Very Life, the source of all Living, to death.

If so, could he have been intersex and chosen to live male?

He could do whatever He pleases, remember that a womans role especially in that culture was submissiveness to men, it would seem unfitting for the Lord to be submissive, or for a woman to be parading around giving commands.

Was he sexually attracted to the opposite sex?

Not as you may think, He was a man, but at the same time He was ordering the Universe still as the Word of God. He wielded His body as an instrument. Does God find women sexually attractive? He made them that way for men. Christ’s flesh also had no stain or disorder of sin (another reason why He shouldn’t fall sick) So while He thought women beautiful-- reflecting the beauty of the Maker–they don’t have the impression upon their Maker as they do upon men.
Is it possible he could have suffered from SSA?

Could he have dated as a young man prior to his ministry?

Priest don’t date women because they are married faithfully to the Lord. How much more the Word of the Father, the Son of God, is “about my Father’s business.”-even at the age of 12 as recorded.

Wouldn’t it have been weird to literally date God and be God’s girlfriend?

Women who come close to the Lord will experience an intimacy far greater than anything else. Women and men are unsatisfied in relationships when they expect the other to fulfill them. They are right to want the eternal, but they are wrong to look for it in the finite.

I think that’s enough for now.

I’d like to know (1) what does the church magisterium or theologian magisterium have to say about these things?

Get yourself a copy of St. Athanasius’ On the Incarnation (2)

How do these questions and their answers make sense? These kinds of questions make me think that Jesus couldn’t have been man and God. If Jesus was truly man, he could have had a mental illness just like any other man.

Ho so? How is He who openely displayed His Lordship over creation by even giving sight to the man born blind, going to fall sick or diseased? He is untouchable. Remember what He said to his condemnors “you have no power over me, it was given to you.”

But God with a mental illness? That sounds crazy, pun intended. God with a personality quirk? Also sounds crazy. God making use of the “facilities”? That sounds odd too. It being possible for God to have had – even if he didn’t, he could have chosen to – a girlfriend? Sounds crazy. And though it didn’t happen, Jesus could have chosen – if His plans were different – to marry a girl and then what would have happened on their honeymoon? A human mortal woman making God “happy” in that way? That just boggles my mind that that was something God could have chosen to do even though it didn’t and was not what happened to be God’s eternal plan.

Man stopped looking up to God and became enamored with senses, with beasts and rocks etc, so God came down to their senses and showed them He was Lord over the creation, if man thought demons were gods, He showed them who was Lord by exercising His power over them. He walked on the water as dry land to show who it was that was Master. That men who looked for God on earth found Him.

And God calling a woman, “Mom” … that sounds mystifying too.

Jesus was a real man, real men have real mothers.

The word I am looking for is incongruity. I think it seems this way b/c it inserts God into these mundane realities whereas I think of God as transcending all this.

Ah, read Athanasius, he addresses this exact question. The Jews traduce this idea of “God” who appeared in weakness. But the weakness was because as man He took our place in death.

Let’s assume Jesus was left handed. Then that means God is literally left handed.

No, that means the Word of God’s instrument was left handed.

Incarnation. There’s something about it that just doesn’t make sense.

For God has taken the foolish things of this world to confound the wise…for the foolishness of God is wiser than the wisdom of man.

 

[RosaryFan]

I know Jesus was like us in all ways but sin, but I always assumed (and you know what they say about “assume”) that since no decay could touch His body, he probably at least had perfect teeth, which was quite astounding in those days, I’m sure.

I just thought I’d share my own personal theory. Not that I’m right, or anything. It’s interesting to think of these things.

 

[jfhh]

I know Jesus was like us in all ways but sin, but I always assumed (and you know what they say about “assume”) that since no decay could touch His body, he probably at least had perfect teeth, which was quite astounding in those days, I’m sure.

I just thought I’d share my own personal theory. Not that I’m right, or anything. It’s interesting to think of these things.

That’s another separate thing that also doesn’t make sense. But it’s apologetic, not theological. Namely, if you are right and there were other similar remarkable things as mentioned above (never getting a cold), then wouldn’t someone have written that down somewhere? He’d be a “freak” if you will and it would have been “newsworthy” or “historyworthy” to write down by his contemporaries, but we don’t see that mentioned anywhere.

 

[RosaryFan]

That’s another separate thing that also doesn’t make sense. But it’s apologetic, not theological. Namely, if you are right and there were other similar remarkable things as mentioned above (never getting a cold), then wouldn’t someone have written that down somewhere? He’d be a “freak” if you will and it would have been “newsworthy” or “historyworthy” to write down by his contemporaries, but we don’t see that mentioned anywhere.

Well, maybe things like His teeth went unnoticed. However, getting a cold, or a fever, doesn’t really decay the body, so maybe Jesus got colds, fevers, etc., but still had no cavities. This is starting to sound a little silly - sorry!

 

[jfhh]

Well, maybe things like His teeth went unnoticed. However, getting a cold, or a fever, doesn’t really decay the body, so maybe Jesus got colds, fevers, etc., but still had no cavities. This is starting to sound a little silly - sorry!

Simon above said he never got colds

 

[SimonArizona]

Simon above said he never got colds

How can He, Whom is called upon as Master to cure sickness and disease even today (proof that He is alive), Himself have fallen sick or diseased? What was in Jesus’ mortal body was the Very Life Himself. He came to restore man to the Father’s image (God’s image) of incorruptability (immortality through His victory over death on the cross) and godliness (through His teaching). Jesus came to those He fashioned with His own hands, to heal them, and to fashion them again after the Image of God, who is Life, He gave men this new life. How can the Author of life be subject to sickness or disease?

 

[FCEGM]

How can He, Whom is called upon as Master to cure sickness and disease even today (proof that He is alive), Himself have fallen sick or diseased? What was in Jesus’ mortal body was the Very Life Himself. He came to restore man to the Father’s image (God’s image) of incorruptability (immortality through His victory over death on the cross) and godliness (through His teaching). Jesus came to those He fashioned with His own hands, to heal them, and to fashion them again after the Image of God, who is Life, He gave men this new life. How can the Author of life be subject to sickness or disease?

Precisely! :tiphat:

 

[jfhh]

How can He, Whom is called upon as Master to cure sickness and disease even today (proof that He is alive), Himself have fallen sick or diseased? What was in Jesus’ mortal body was the Very Life Himself. He came to restore man to the Father’s image (God’s image) of incorruptability (immortality through His victory over death on the cross) and godliness (through His teaching). Jesus came to those He fashioned with His own hands, to heal them, and to fashion them again after the Image of God, who is Life, He gave men this new life. How can the Author of life be subject to sickness or disease?

Right but then how come like he wasn’t famous for never getting colds or any other sickness or disease? It would have been written down by some contemporary somewhere.

I am going to approach that Australian priest’s book with an open mind. He sounds a little goofy for my taste but I think God wants me to have an open heart to all things and not assume I can’t learn from someone.

 

[Mintaka]

Either way could be correct.

There are plenty of ordinary human people who never seem to get sick, because they just have strong immune systems. (Some of them make up for it with sports injuries.)

Tooth decay generally isn’t a problem if your diet doesn’t have much sugar, or if your genes are for good teeth, or if you get a lot of calcium in your diet. Galileans like Jesus ate A LOT of fish. Fish has bones full of calcium; and even if you don’t crunch up small bones, the thrifty housewife grinds fishbones up for use in food and medicine, with her mortar and pestle. So I bet Galileans had little tooth decay.

People in developing countries suffer more from using their teeth as tools, and hence grinding them down. Toothpicks and stickbrushes were invented pretty early in human history, and those also sometimes cause damage.

However, it would be fitting for Our Lord to have chosen to suffer sickness, just as it was fitting for Him to choose to suffer death and being a human being in the first place. So sure, he could have been honking his nose from allergies all the time, or having diarrhea and fever, or whatever.

Either way, incarnation isn’t just posing for photos. God was doing something mindboggling, yes. But gosh, isn’t that what God is best at?

 

[CentralFLJames]

Jesus elected to subjugate himself completely to the same human condition we all experience except for sin. Jesus also supernaturally suffered in some way the effects of sin without actually harming or tainting his soul and without actualy committing sin during the passion and also on the cross - “Lord why have you abandoned me”.

I am of the opinion that Jesus was a pure unblemished “lamb of God” physically perfect but did elect to suffer all the very same things we do in everyday life. In addition to all the normal human emotions it would also include all the regular sort of physical issues: aches and pains, sore feet from walking, fatigue, thirst, dehydration, hunger, muscle soreness, headaches, occasional colds, stomach aches from tainted food, cramps, heat exhaustion, cuts and bruises, insect bites, ingrown hairs etc. etc. And yes - Jesus had to eat, drink and relieve himself and wash up just like you and me. And yes, when Jesus was a baby, Mary would have had to nurse him and change his diapers (or equivalent) and clean him and nurse him just like any other human baby. Jesus was 100% human in every way except sin.

This can be easily ascertained by what we know about God being authentic and truthful in all things. It would thus be unauthentic for God to exempt himself from suffering the full spectrum of human emotions and experiences - including temptation to sin.

James

 

[SimonArizona]

Right but then how come like he wasn’t famous for never getting colds or any other sickness or disease? It would have been written down by some contemporary somewhere.

I am going to approach that Australian priest’s book with an open mind. He sounds a little goofy for my taste but I think God wants me to have an open heart to all things and not assume I can’t learn from someone.

Huh? St. John said if everything about Jesus was written down not all the books in the world could contain what would be written.

Many people haven’t gotten colds until they were passed 33. Why is that so amazing?

What Australian priest?

 

[jfhh]

Huh? St. John said if everything about Jesus was written down not all the books in the world could contain what would be written.

Many people haven’t gotten colds until they were passed 33. Why is that so amazing?

What Australian priest?

You said not just colds but any sickness. THat would be amazing. There is not a single human who lived til 33 without getting sick in some way at least once IMO. Anyway, regardless, someone would have noticed and it would have been amazing.

 

[Usagi]

You said not just colds but any sickness. THat would be amazing. There is not a single human who lived til 33 without getting sick in some way at least once IMO. Anyway, regardless, someone would have noticed and it would have been amazing.

Even if He never did get sick (and unlike some others, I don’t think that’s absolutely necessary), and even if someone noticed, why would we necessary have a record of it millennia later?

Jesus didn’t come to any kind of prominence until He was 30 years old. Any earlier testimony about His extraordinary nature would have come from other local folk from Nazareth, and we don’t have any surviving writings from them. By the time a larger audience became aware of Him, He was known for considerably more than just not getting sick.

Usagi