Incest

[GladCatholic]

What arguments can one make against the practice of incest to anyone in the secular world who doesn’t accept the immorality of it from a Christian perspective? I’ve seen places on the internet where seemingly intelligent people think it is acceptable and not harmful to do this. I did a search for “arguments against incest” and I was rather surprised to see that sites came up that attempted to refute the assertion that incest was immoral.

Peace…

MW

Well, the “secular” world also has to abide by the law. How about printing out the appropriate statutes/codes showing them the act is illegal, at the very least, and then try to show them why it’s illegal, such as the genetic reasons and that it is considerd abuse.

Glad

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Well, the “secular” world also has to abide by the law. How about printing out the appropriate statutes/codes showing them the act is illegal, at the very least, and then try to show them why it’s illegal, such as the genetic reasons and that it is considerd abuse.

Glad

I have told them that it is against the law in almost every country in the world because society has deemed that it is wrong. I’m interested in the genetic reasons. I will investigate that and hope I can find some good research.

Peace…

MW

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

You and they have my prayers.

You could also show the older ones the biological issues that it can present. Basic genetics shows how a bad trait can be amplified.

I know that this also includes an acceptance of the issue of pregnancy, but it is an option for discussion.

Thank you for the prayers, ralphinal. We and they need them. I’m going to look into that because that may help them see how destructive this behavior can be.

Peace…

MW

 

[rpp]

Mystic,

I admire your willingness to take on this burden. But I have a couple questions about you and your wife.

Have you or your wife had any training or education in counseling, psychology or mental health care?

If not, I think this may be too much for you.

And if it is too much for you, it also means it is not enough for these poor scarred children.

Adopting four children is a major change. Adopting a child with psychological damage who engages in pathological behavior, and suffers emotional problems that may soon develop into a full-blown personality disorder is a challenge few people are really ever ready for. I cannot imagine the challenge in adopting 4.

These children will need great care and attention. I am certainly not a professional in any sense of the word. And frankly an internet is not the place to get information to make a final decision.

Have you considered that at some point, the children may need to be separated from one another in an effort to address the problem. And when I say separated, I mean out of contact with one another and incommunicado for months or even years. Do you really want to rip your home apart.

As I said at the beginning, I really do admire you for being willing to do this. I think you and your wife must have great love in your hearts do even consider this. However, it will take more than love for such an adoption to work. I think only very few people both the love and the skill, not to mention the financial resources, to benefit these children.

And that is what it really is all about. Getting these children the help they need.

May God grant you wisdom and peace.

May god help these children. May He bring healing and the grace of peace of mind to them.

 

[CuriousInIL]

if you have knowledge or well grounded suspicion that adults are committing abusive acts against children it is your duty … legally to report it immediately to civil authorities and law enforcement. If you do not report you are an accessory to this crime.

Do you have any easily accessed support for this point? It would help me greatly if you do. I have not found the support for this idea.

 

[rpp]

Do you have any easily accessed support for this point? It would help me greatly if you do. I have not found the support for this idea.

A few years ago, there was a notorious case in Nevada. Two college students were in a casino. One of them grabbed a young girl, pulled her into the bathroom and raped and beat her. The olther friend walked in on this, saw what his friend was doing and decided it was not any of his business. He did not report it to authorities and it was some time before his friend the perpetrator was caught.

When it came to light that he had witnessed the crime but did absolutely nothing help there was outrage. The outrage grew when prosecutors determined that there is was no law that required a person to report a serious crime against a child.

As a result of this incident, many states passed laws requiring any person who witnesses a serious crime against a child to report it, even if they do so anonymously.

 

[1ke]

Do you have any easily accessed support for this point? It would help me greatly if you do. I have not found the support for this idea.

Actually, only certain states designate everyone as a mandatory reporter (Texas, where Annie lives, being one of them). In other states, certain professions are mandatory reports while everyone else is a “permissible reporter”.

childwelfare.gov/systemwide/laws_policies/statutes/manda.cfm

 

[1ke]

My original question was pretty simple. And I’ve repeatedly asked the same question about arguments against incest either secularly or Biblically. I didn’t believe asking this question would require all of the background information for someone to understand those questions. And still no one has answered the same question, including you, while telling me the very things that I already know.

No, Mystic, it’s not “simple”. You are narrowly framing this as to why “incest” is wrong.

These children need a wider context than that.

In their world parents engage in sex with their children, the children with each other, and who knows who else. This is how they have been taught that “love” is expressed. It’s not just wrong because they are related.

We are talking about boundaries and sexuality/chastity/personal integrity in general.

What makes you believe you are qualified to try to counsel or provide therapy on this topic? You could really do a lot of damage to them, unintentionally of course. I know you mean well.

What does their therapist say? Are you talking to them about this topic with the guidance of their therapist? No one here has this kind of professional experience and it could really be harmful to the children if the topic is not handled correctly.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Mystic,

I admire your willingness to take on this burden. But I have a couple questions about you and your wife.

Have you or your wife had any training or education in counseling, psychology or mental health care?

No, we haven’t. We would have them go to counseling on an ongoing basis. This is a future prospect and not something they are ready for, not to mention us. But we really want it to work out. No one else wants these kids. The state is taking care of them now and they don’t want them either.

If not, I think this may be too much for you.

And if it is too much for you, it also means it is not enough for these poor scarred children.

Adopting four children is a major change. Adopting a child with psychological damage who engages in pathological behavior, and suffers emotional problems that may soon develop into a full-blown personality disorder is a challenge few people are really ever ready for. I cannot imagine the challenge in adopting 4.

These children will need great care and attention. I am certainly not a professional in any sense of the word. And frankly an internet is not the place to get information to make a final decision.

Have you considered that at some point, the children may need to be separated from one another in an effort to address the problem. And when I say separated, I mean out of contact with one another and incommunicado for months or even years. Do you really want to rip your home apart.

We are open to the many possibilities. It has to be what’s best for them and for us for it to be able to work.

As I said at the beginning, I really do admire you for being willing to do this. I think you and your wife must have great love in your hearts do even consider this. However, it will take more than love for such an adoption to work. I think only very few people both the love and the skill, not to mention the financial resources, to benefit these children.

And that is what it really is all about. Getting these children the help they need.

May God grant you wisdom and peace.

May god help these children. May He bring healing and the grace of peace of mind to them.

Thank you for the prayers. Believe me, this is an uphill battle for them and us. I trust that however God wants it to work out, it will. We aren’t going to jump into anything yet. There’s a lot of work to be done. But, we are hoping that at some point in the future we all will be ready and able to deal with it. Right now we are only speaking to them over the phone as much as we can.

Peace…

MW

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

No, Mystic, it’s not “simple”. You are narrowly framing this as to why “incest” is wrong.

These children need a wider context than that.

In their world parents engage in sex with their children, the children with each other, and who knows who else. This is how they have been taught that “love” is expressed. It’s not just wrong because they are related.

We are talking about boundaries and sexuality/chastity/personal integrity in general.

What makes you believe you are qualified to try to counsel or provide therapy on this topic? You could really do a lot of damage to them, unintentionally of course. I know you mean well.

What does their therapist say? Are you talking to them about this topic with the guidance of their therapist? No one here has this kind of professional experience and it could really be harmful to the children if the topic is not handled correctly.

I’m not providing therapy to them. That’s out of my bounds. I’m simply offering what any other person would - a view of society about the rightness and wrongness of the actions. These children are in Canada.

Their therapist has many issues to work through with them. This being one of many issues. It’s taking them a long time to understand basic rights and wrongs. It’s not harmful for us to tell them what is normal behavior in society and why we believe it is morally wrong. There is much more to their situation than what I have shared. I could write a book about the details.

I’m not asking for professional help. I’m looking for the same information that Caeser did earlier, that is, basic arguments against incest from not only a moral perspective, but from a secular one as well.

I know their issues are not all that simple. Let me ask you, do you think that all prospective adoptive parents have degrees in psychology to deal with the children? That’s what professionals are for. Adoptive parents are to provide a safe, loving home for them and are to work alongside therapists and other professionals.

Peace…

MW

 

[Caesar517]

If you want to explore the genetic side of the issue, there is more information than I care to read here. Under many of the section headings, there is a link to the main article from which the section was taken. There are links to the sources at the very bottom as well.

 

[rpp]

Mystic,

I am not yet convinced that this adoption will be good for anyone.

Yet there is still a good deal of information we do not have here. For example, how often are these children currently engaging in these acts?

Do you and your wife have any other children?

If they do move in, will they each have their own bedroom?

Another point that just occurred to me.

Among the many struggles that children who have been sexually abused experience, perhaps one of the worst is that some become sexual predators themselves.

Another point I would like to make is that while no one expects you to be their counselor, I think you and your wife will need some very serious psychological training yourselves in order to give the greatest benefit for these children. How sad it would be for you to unwittingly undo to advancement or inadvertently make something worse, or, through ignorance, not be able to take advantage of a particular situation.

Whatever your decision is, I pray it is the correct one. And one made after careful thought, prayer, some serious education.

 

[Caesar517]

I am not yet convinced that this adoption will be good for anyone.

You don’t have to be.

rpp, Mystic Warrior is not here for adoption advice, discussion of his personal life, or to have his decisions second-guessed. He has made that very clear. He can already report you to the forum moderators for attempting to derail his thread if he so chooses.

Secular arguments against immoral arguments are difficult and challenging. The only approach I see is from natural law. Does anyone else see another way to argue this? I would very much like to see what we can come up with.

 

[rpp]

You don’t have to be.

rpp, Mystic Warrior is not here for adoption advice, discussion of his personal life, or to have his decisions second-guessed. He has made that very clear. He can already report you to the forum moderators for attempting to derail his thread if he so chooses.

Secular arguments against immoral arguments are difficult and challenging. The only approach I see is from natural law. Does anyone else see another way to argue this? I would very much like to see what we can come up with.

If you feel I have hijacked this thread, then I urge you to report me. Such reporting is not limited to the OP.

I would also remind you that uncharitable remarks are also forbidden here.

Now back to the topic about four sexually abused children, who are engaging in incest in incest and OP’s desire to adopt them.

 

[CuriousInIL]

Mystic,

I am not yet convinced that this adoption will be good for anyone.

Yet there is still a good deal of information we do not have here. For example, how often are these children currently engaging in these acts?

Do you and your wife have any other children?

If they do move in, will they each have their own bedroom?

Another point that just occurred to me.

Among the many struggles that children who have been sexually abused experience, perhaps one of the worst is that some become sexual predators themselves.

Another point I would like to make is that while no one expects you to be their counselor, I think you and your wife will need some very serious psychological training yourselves in order to give the greatest benefit for these children. How sad it would be for you to unwittingly undo to advancement or inadvertently make something worse, or, through ignorance, not be able to take advantage of a particular situation.

Whatever your decision is, I pray it is the correct one. And one made after careful thought, prayer, some serious education.

I am not at all sure that anyone on here will ever be convinced one way or another that this particular adoption “will be good” based on the information presented here. I am very sure that I believe that it is a good thing that it matters not at all what anyone on here thinks. The decision is between Mystic and the authorities and IMO nothing so far should lead anyone to question that Mystic is trying to do good.

Also, IMO the failure of children—any and all children—to be adopted is never best for the children. I firmly believe that the best thing for children is to find the right adoptive parents and home. Even abused children deserve this.

Hope that all doesn’t come off as too snarky or to sanctimonious. As an adoptive parent, I have strong feelings when folks challenge adoptions with—I feel—no real reason to do so.

Mystic, I have no information to offer you beyond what has already been offered–although I must say that the “this is illegal” argument just doesn’t do it for me if I put myself in a situation where I had long been told that the illegal behavior was jusst fine. I would just view it as bad government.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

If you feel I have hijacked this thread, then I urge you to report me. Such reporting is not limited to the OP.

I would also remind you that uncharitable remarks are also forbidden here.

Now back to the topic about four sexually abused children, who are engaging in incest in incest and OP’s desire to adopt them.

This is not the topic of the thread. I have repeated that continually. I do not wish to air any more of my “laundry” about this. It’s not the time or place. This is about arguments against incest from any viewpoint, preferably “secular” since religious arguments aren’t going to cut it.

And it’s just not my personal situation. I’m wondering even if confronted by a perfect stranger about why it’s wrong. Like I’ve said, I saw many websites trying to refute the idea that incest is wrong. If you want to continue discussing my personal life in great detail I will ask the thread to be closed.

Please respect that rpp.

Peace…

MW

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

I am not at all sure that anyone on here will ever be convinced one way or another that this particular adoption “will be good” based on the information presented here. I am very sure that I believe that it is a good thing that it matters not at all what anyone on here thinks. The decision is between Mystic and the authorities and IMO nothing so far should lead anyone to question that Mystic is trying to do good.

Also, IMO the failure of children—any and all children—to be adopted is never best for the children. I firmly believe that the best thing for children is to find the right adoptive parents and home. Even abused children deserve this.

Hope that all doesn’t come off as too snarky or to sanctimonious. As an adoptive parent, I have strong feelings when folks challenge adoptions with—I feel—no real reason to do so.

Mystic, I have no information to offer you beyond what has already been offered–although I must say that the “this is illegal” argument just doesn’t do it for me if I put myself in a situation where I had long been told that the illegal behavior was jusst fine. I would just view it as bad government.

Thank you Curious. I want more than anything to help these children, whether or not the adoption goes through or not. And yes, the illegal argument only goes so far. Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut and kind thoughts.

Peace…

MW

 

[rpp]

This is not the topic of the thread. I have repeated that continually. I do not wish to air any more of my “laundry” about this. It’s not the time or place. This is about arguments against incest from any viewpoint, preferably “secular” since religious arguments aren’t going to cut it.

And it’s just not my personal situation. I’m wondering even if confronted by a perfect stranger about why it’s wrong. Like I’ve said, I saw many websites trying to refute the idea that incest is wrong. If you want to continue discussing my personal life in great detail I will ask the thread to be closed.

Please respect that rpp.

Peace…

MW

Oh. I totally missed that.

You have my sincere apologies.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

You don’t have to be.

rpp, Mystic Warrior is not here for adoption advice, discussion of his personal life, or to have his decisions second-guessed. He has made that very clear. He can already report you to the forum moderators for attempting to derail his thread if he so chooses.

Secular arguments against immoral arguments are difficult and challenging. The only approach I see is from natural law. Does anyone else see another way to argue this? I would very much like to see what we can come up with.

Thanks Caesar. I’m a thinking adult who doesn’t just jump into things of this magnitude without really contemplating the ramifications. And like you, I want to see some really good arguments against incest not only from a Christian perspective, but from society as well.

As Christians, we need to be able to confront this kind of issue and help educate those who either don’t know any better or who do know better, yet remain in their sin. I looked at some numbers for incestual households and it was staggering. I had no idea this was so prevalent in our society. You know that most of it goes unreported, so we have no idea what the actual numbers are.

Thank you for your help.

Peace…

MW

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Oh. I totally missed that.

You have my sincere apologies.

Brother, it was simply a miscommunication, obviously. You are forgiven Now, how about those arguments against this work of the devil called incest.

We know it’s wrong because God says it is through the Holy Scriptures and through His church. How can we combat this across the board to society as a whole?

Peace…

MW