inclusive language

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Pax vobiscum!

Since I’ve been on these forums, I’ve read many accounts of gender-inclusive language at Mass and other abuses, but have personally witnessed few of them, and never a priest using inclusive language.

Well, this Sunday was my first experience hearing a priest use inclusive language. My friends and I were at the beach and attending Mass at a church there. It was an older priest and in the opening prayer he said, “God, who is both our Father and Mother”. I was like, oh brother, here we go. But that wasn’t the only abuse! He interjected his own words into the Eucharistic prayer literally every other sentance (fortunately not the consecration).

At Communion, if there is no Communion rail (like we use at the church I normally go to), then I will genuflect, stand and recieve on the tongue. My friend genuflects and remains kneeling to recieve. But, when she went up, the priest told her to stand before he would give her Communion. Needless to say, all of us were quite angered by it, especially my friend. I told her that I would go and talk to the priest afterwards and remind him of Redemptionis Sacramentum, but she didn’t want me to because he seemed like the kind of priest who couldn’t care less what the Church tells him is and is not acceptable. We may be writing brief letters to Archbishop Vlazny, however. The whole “God, who is both our Father and Mother” part bothered me the most about this. A Protestant friend of mine was with us too (who has been to Mass with us before, fortunately the last time was a Mass celebrated by Archbishop Vlazny, so my friend knows how a Mass is supposed to be), and he was quite angered at that line as well.

Sorry for the rant.

In Christ,
Rand

 

[TimOliv]

Inclusive language…women sending petitions to the Pope to ordain women…

Its America. Americans are getting so fat on their freedom to sue anyone they feel has done them wrong that they feel everything is a right and an entitlement.

The church should not change tradition to cater to the passing fads, it should not change its language even further from the Latin, it should not be bowing to the demands of the ignorant.

For the record, I have encountered many Diocesan priests who refuse to administer communion to a person who kneels. The priests in this order, however, have no problem whatsoever with it.

 

[YachtsMan]

You know what I detest?

During the singing of the Gloria*:*

“Glory to God in highest and peace to His people on Earth…”

Becomes:

“Glory to God in highest and peace to God’s people on Earth…”

When that happens, I make sure to really hit the His on the rest of the Gloria.

 

[Pius_X]

Well, God is both our Father and Mother, and neither man or woman.

 

[TimOliv]

Well, God is both our Father and Mother, and neither man or woman.

Pius, I see you are also in the Diocese of Scranton. Welcome neighbor :tiphat:

Now, as I was about to say…

God does not have a body, therefor can be neither mother nor father.

But God did have a body, and it was male, and when he looked up towards the heaven he cried to his “Father.”

Changing the language of the liturgy is changing tradition based on scripture, that’s a bit more dangerous than changing other types of traditions (i.e. mass in Latin or in local language).

 

[Julianna]

Inclusive language…women sending petitions to the Pope to ordain women…

Its America. Americans are getting so fat on their freedom to sue anyone they feel has done them wrong that they feel everything is a right and an entitlement.

The church should not change tradition to cater to the passing fads, it should not change its language even further from the Latin, it should not be bowing to the demands of the ignorant.

For the record, I have encountered many Diocesan priests who refuse to administer communion to a person who kneels. The priests in this order, however, have no problem whatsoever with it.

You had me, until this. Tim, Tim, Tim, America is America. Tradition has changed since I was a girl of 8 in 1966. It’s not all bad. I just read through the “head covering” thread, ad nasuem…and of course the feminist movement got blamed for that. I haven’t worn anything on my head to mass since my communion veil in 1966. And I won’t wear one, period. As for the communion, it doesn’t matter if they kneel or stand, that person should not have been denied communion. And that is the “ugly side” of the progressives. Again, the “extremes”. There is much to be said about about the EDIT radical traditionalists, wanting the Church to backward…as well as the EDIT Progressives wanting to go too far forward, that mass begins to look like a tent revival.

There is a middle ground…somewhere.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

I haven’t worn anything on my head to mass since my communion veil in 1966. And I won’t wear one, period.

Pax tecum!

Obviously you aren’t required to cover your head in Mass anymore, but what is so bad about that tradition that you absolutely would never do it? I don’t understand why many women view it in that way.

In Christ,
Rand

 

[TimOliv]

You had me, until this. Tim, Tim, Tim, America is America. Tradition has changed since I was a girl of 8 in 1966. It’s not all bad. I just read through the “head covering” thread, ad nasuem…and of course the feminist movement got blamed for that. I haven’t worn anything on my head to mass since my communion veil in 1966. And I won’t wear one, period. As for the communion, it doesn’t matter if they kneel or stand, that person should not have been denied communion. And that is the “ugly side” of the progressives. Again, the “extremes”. There is much to be said about about the EDIT wanting the Church to backward…as well as the EDIT Progressives wanting to go too far forward, that mass begins to look like a tent revival.

There is a middle ground…somewhere.

So which part do you disagree with me on?

 

[Julianna]

So which part do you disagree with me on?

Americans getting fat on freedom…as for women sending petitions to the Pope…it’s a lost cause…never happen. There will be married priests before there are women priests. Not in my lifetime though. Maybe yours.

America is not all bad. Would you say a country named for an Italian was all bad…“come-on now…”

 

[TimOliv]

Americans getting fat on freedom…as for women sending petitions to the Pope…it’s a lost cause…never happen. There will be married priests before there are women priests. Not in my lifetime though. Maybe yours.

America is not all bad. Would you say a country named for an Italian was all bad…“come-on now…”

I never said America was bad. What I mean is that to American Catholics, we bring our constitutional notions with us when we enter church. People think things like ordination or even serving on the altar are rights instead of privelages.

A bunch of women get ordained on a boat then send petitions to the Pope saying he is wrong to not ordain women and it is their RIGHT!

America is a land of rights (though lately…) we hear about our rights everywhere we go. If you get arrested, they have to read you miranda rights. Enter a hospital or nursing home, they are required to post your resident/patient rights. So a culture so full of rights and entitlements will ultimately cause people to walk into church and say…

“That man gets to be a priest, I have the RIGHT to be a priest as well”

And why wouldn’t a person think that way? Every other profession previously closed to women has been opened. The problem is that some people look at the church, not as a vessel for the divine, but as an unconquered territory.

Feminists worked hard to get women on equal playing field (and dare I say, I think women are pretty much on spot with us guys), however, they look at the church and see one entity that is holding out.

Notice, however, people who fall prey to these deceptions are people who generally “fell away” from the church. Look at their stories. They “fell away” because the Latin Mass went away. They “fell away” because they felt their pastor was driven by money. They “fell away” because they prayed and prayed and prayed and great grandma died when she was 98 years young.

People who stray like this were very rarely grounded to begin with. To them they don’t see themselves as abolishing tradition, they see it as trying to make the church a custom fit rather than conforming themselves to the church.

 

[rwoehmke]

Rand, do you wear a hat when you go to class, do business in town etc? We men used to do that before JFK was president. Since then, except in the snowy climes, wearing a hat is a pain in the backside. I don’t blame these gals at all for finding them unacceptable. In addition many womens hats of the past looked totally redic. Women still wear them in England at the Henley rowing meets, and the Ascot races. Looks cool on someone else.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Rand, do you wear a hat when you go to class, do business in town etc? We men used to do that before JFK was president. Since then, except in the snowy climes, wearing a hat is a pain in the backside. I don’t blame these gals at all for finding them unacceptable. In addition many womens hats of the past looked totally redic. Women still wear them in England at the Henley rowing meets, and the Ascot races. Looks cool on someone else.

Pax tecum!

I’m talking about veils (not necessarily hats) in Mass only, not all the time. I don’t think that’s a “pain”. I’m not trying to say that all women should wear veils in Mass; I’m just trying to understand why so many women view it as such a bad thing. Personally, I think it is a very reverant thing to do.

In Christ,
Rand

 

[bear06]

Pax tecum!

I’m talking about veils (not necessarily hats) in Mass only, not all the time. I don’t think that’s a “pain”. I’m not trying to say that all women should wear veils in Mass; I’m just trying to understand why so many women view it as such a bad thing. Personally, I think it is a very reverant thing to do.

In Christ,
Rand

Sigh! I can’t see why people worry so much about others’ personal acts of piety. As long as they are not contra to the teachings or disciplines of the Church, it might be nice if we kept our mouths shut. The Church has loosed the rule on mantillas, hats, etc. The Church did not say they were forbidden. If the Vatican came out tomorrow and required head coverings, I’d put one on and endure my little kids tugging on it, trying to keep one on a 2 year old and tapping my olding kids when they’re trying to make sure it’s on just right. Thankfully, for now, the Church has made it easier for me to pay attention to the Mass which is not that easy with 6 kids!

 

[mosher]

Sigh! I can’t see why people worry so much about others’ personal acts of piety. As long as they are not contra to the teachings or disciplines of the Church, it might be nice if we kept our mouths shut. The Church has loosed the rule on mantillas, hats, etc. The Church did not say they were forbidden. If the Vatican came out tomorrow and required head coverings, I’d put one on and endure my little kids tugging on it, trying to keep one on a 2 year old and tapping my olding kids when they’re trying to make sure it’s on just right. Thankfully, for now, the Church has made it easier for me to pay attention to the Mass which is not that easy with 6 kids!

Your missing the point. All he wanted to know was why it was a definitive statement by Julianna. He did not request a pro/con discussion (as that conversation has been had). Rather, it was a simple curious question aimed at a single person and that person’s definitiveness.

On topic however, I am troubled that we as Americans and the vast majority of Western society have forgotten that the role of women and the role of men are different in part because we no longer dress differently or rather distinctly. Many fashions are uni-sex in design with minor tailoring. I think that the lack of firm signs of these distinction of proper gender roles lends to these theological errors that are rooted in Gnosticism. The work to androgynize man has also worked to do the same violence to God.

 

[mikew262]

Pax vobiscum!

Since I’ve been on these forums, I’ve read many accounts of gender-inclusive language at Mass and other abuses, but have personally witnessed few of them, and never a priest using inclusive language.

Well, this Sunday was my first experience hearing a priest use inclusive language. My friends and I were at the beach and attending Mass at a church there. It was an older priest and in the opening prayer he said, “God, who is both our Father and Mother”. I was like, oh brother, here we go. But that wasn’t the only abuse! He interjected his own words into the Eucharistic prayer literally every other sentance (fortunately not the consecration).

At Communion, if there is no Communion rail (like we use at the church I normally go to), then I will genuflect, stand and recieve on the tongue. My friend genuflects and remains kneeling to recieve. But, when she went up, the priest told her to stand before he would give her Communion. Needless to say, all of us were quite angered by it, especially my friend. I told her that I would go and talk to the priest afterwards and remind him of Redemptionis Sacramentum, but she didn’t want me to because he seemed like the kind of priest who couldn’t care less what the Church tells him is and is not acceptable. We may be writing brief letters to Archbishop Vlazny, however. The whole “God, who is both our Father and Mother” part bothered me the most about this. A Protestant friend of mine was with us too (who has been to Mass with us before, fortunately the last time was a Mass celebrated by Archbishop Vlazny, so my friend knows how a Mass is supposed to be), and he was quite angered at that line as well.

Sorry for the rant.

In Christ,
Rand

This is just a guess, but could the priest have been saying that God is beyond gender, thus he is both father and mother to us all?

Again, just a guess.

 

[drforjc]

This is just a guess, but could the priest have been saying that God is beyond gender, thus he is both father and mother to us all?

Again, just a guess.

He may or may not have, but it was still an abuse to alter the text of the opening prayer in that way.

 

[bear06]

Your missing the point

.

You’re missing the point. I agree with Rand

On topic however, I am troubled that we as Americans and the vast majority of Western society have forgotten that the role of women and the role of men are different in part because we no longer dress differently or rather distinctly.

 

[bear06]

QUOTE=mikew262;1486830]This is just a guess, but could the priest have been saying that God is beyond gender, thus he is both father and mother to us all?

Then somebody might want to tell Christ because He told us to pray “Our Father” and called God His father not mother, brother, sister, etc.

 

[johnnykins]

Perhaps we could all go for “Rock, scissors and paper” or whatever it was that was Ok with the PCA(USA)

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

This is just a guess, but could the priest have been saying that God is beyond gender, thus he is both father and mother to us all?

Again, just a guess.

Pax tecum!

I don’t know his reasoning for doing it. But, God is never once referred to in Scripture or the writings of the early Church as “mother”; ONLY as “Father”, and He was referred to as “Father” by Jesus himself. While certainly God does not have a human gender, He is still our Father (because that is how He revealed Himself), and not our mother.

In Christ,
Rand