Incoherent concept of timeless God

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Bahman

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We believe that God created universe with his eternal act. We also believe that God was free to decide whether to create universe or not. This is however problematic since it requires that decision must be made before creation act which is impossible in timeless state because there is no before and after in timeless state. We know that act was necessary because universe exist hence we have to accept the fact that God cannot decide. Decision however is necessary since it allows act. This means that concept of timeless God is incoherent.
 
Perhaps it might be better to say that God transends eternity itself? God utterly transends even the concepts of timelessness…God himself transends the order of causality… absolutely and completely everything…

By placing God above anything and everything we conceive about him, we can free ourselves from these contradictions that arise by placing God in the realms of human reasoning and logic…
 
Yes. Bahman, when you define a concept it is generally incoherent to the rest of humanity 😛
 
Maybe the decision to create and the creation happened simultaneously, like a bowling ball on a cushion. The indentation in the cushion happens simultaneously with the ball being placed on it. Your ideas of cause and effect are bound to the physical world but we’re talking about a metaphysical being. Why should physical laws bind a metaphysical being?

I don’t know how God created the universe, I don’t know how time works (nobody does), all I know is that he did and it does. To ponder the how’s can be an interesting pastime, but to constantly worry at it is an exercise in futility.
 
riverrun, past Eve and Adam’s, from swerve of shore to bend of bay, brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Environs.
 
Bahman said:
We believe that God created universe with his eternal act.
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No, God is eternal the universe isn’t. Now, the universe may turn out to be infinite, but it can never be, by definition, eternal because it had a beginning.
Bahman said:
We also believe that God was free to decide whether to create universe or not. This is however problematic since it requires that decision must be made before creation act which is impossible in timeless state because there is no before and after in timeless state.
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This is a paradox; from our perspective God thinking about creating, God deciding to create and God creating happen at the same time. There is no such thing as “timeless”. We say God is outside of space/time or beyond all possible times simultaneously and eternally. Some food for thought: Quantum science allows for an effect to be observed before the event that caused it.
Bahman said:
We know that act was necessary because universe exist hence we have to accept the fact that God cannot decide. Decision however is necessary since it allows act. This means that concept of timeless God is incoherent.
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This is speculation, supposition and assumption. God is eternal which isn’t incoherent, it’s simply humanly incomprehensible.
 
seagal said:
Maybe the decision to create and the creation happened simultaneously, like a bowling ball on a cushion. The indentation in the cushion happens simultaneously with the ball being placed on it. Your ideas of cause and effect are bound to the physical world but we’re talking about a metaphysical being. Why should physical laws bind a metaphysical being?

I don’t know how God created the universe, I don’t know how time works (nobody does), all I know is that he did and it does. To ponder the how’s can be an interesting pastime, but to constantly worry at it is an exercise in futility.
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Wisdom. 👍
 
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RPRPsych said:
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Bahman said:
We believe that God created universe with his eternal act. We also believe that God was free to decide whether to create universe or not. This is however problematic since it requires that decision must be made before creation act which is impossible in timeless state because there is no before and after in timeless state. We know that act was necessary because universe exist hence we have to accept the fact that God cannot decide. Decision however is necessary since it allows act. This means that concept of timeless God is incoherent.
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Timeless means eternal.

Which means no end to time.(rather than no time).

Things still have chronological order in Heaven and outside of time. Eg: step happens, then step 2 happens, then step three happens, then step four happens etc…

Souls are immortal in Heaven,

The “Glory Be” prayer says, about God, “world without end, amen.”
Heaven doesn’t have an end. People and things there live forever.
 
I think you already posted this a couple days ago. 🙂

God’s decision and acting do not have to be before/after. It can be concurrent. His decision to create and the very act of creation could very well be the same thing.

Humans must decide and then act. We need time for our synapses to process information and then for the electrical signals to reach our muscles and do something. God is spirit, there is no need for this.

I’d say that God’s will and His actions are not different things. Of course there is no ‘before’ or ‘after’ in eternity. His actions are not dependent on anything. He does not need to think, then act, then reflect, then do something else. God just is.
 
We discussed ALL of this before on MULPTIPLE other threads of the OP… Not very long ago. :banghead:
 
noorez said:
Perhaps it might be better to say that God transends eternity itself?
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That is to me look like hiding our ignorances.
noorez said:
God utterly transends even the concepts of timelessness…God himself transends the order of causality… absolutely and completely everything…

By placing God above anything and everything we conceive about him, we can free ourselves from these contradictions that arise by placing God in the realms of human reasoning and logic…
Click to expand...
I think we can understand God by reason and logic since otherwise we were simply blind followers.
 
Bahman said:
That is your definition of God not mine! 😃
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Your idea of incoherence is subjective.

What you’re really saying is that you, personally, don’t/can’t comprehended it.

Perhaps you could manage not to claim that no one can comprehend it?
 
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RPRPsych said:
Tttttt hh hh iii ssssss iii ssssss ssssss iii ll ll yy yy
tt hh hh iii ss iii ss ss iii ll ll yy yy
tt hhhhhh iii ssssss iii ssssss ssssss iii ll ll yyyy
tt hh hh iii ss iii ss ss iii ll ll yy
tt hh hh iii ssssss iii ssssss ssssss iii lllll lllll yy
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An exercise in literal metaphor.

Silver approves 👍
 
seagal said:
Maybe the decision to create and the creation happened simultaneously, like a bowling ball on a cushion.
Click to expand...
First, there is no simultaneously in timeless state but in temporal state. Second, let me open the problem a little more: We believe in causality. We believe that a chain causality can go back into infinitum hence we believe in unmoved mover. The problem arises when we like to give a personality to unmoved mover, such as ability to decide (like us), so called God. We know that decision in us allows action which act follows decision similar to a chain of causalities. We have no problem with unmoved mover unless we give a extra attribute to it so called decision. Act however in God follows decision as it was discussed. We then accept that God is in timeless state, since time is a part of creation. That is where the concept of God collapses.
seagal said:
Your ideas of cause and effect are bound to the physical world but we’re talking about a metaphysical being. Why should physical laws bind a metaphysical being?
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Because metaphysical laws are construct of our imaginations hence they are wrong if they oppose with physical laws because the physical laws are the result of observation of reality. Moreover I didn’t use the concept of cause and effect here. I however believe them to be true as metaphysical principles.
 
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