Income equality: abolish pensions based on having been a government employee

[PseuTonym]

Champions of income equality should be the first ones to advocate abolishing pensions based on having been a government employee.

Government employees should set aside some of the employment income that they receive from governments, and should save and invest that money.

If that isn’t enough for retirement, then they can find ways to supplement that income, just as people who have never been employed by governments find ways to supplement their income after they reach retirement age.

 

[JimG]

Shall we also abolish pensions received by people who worked for Boeing, P&G, Google, Microsoft, and GM? Why single out one class of employees to have their pensions abolished?

 

[ricmat]

Shall we also abolish pensions received by people who worked for Boeing, P&G, Google, Microsoft, and GM? Why single out one class of employees to have their pensions abolished?

Here’s a few reasons:

1. Government employees can’t be fired.
2. Government employees can’t be laid off.
3. Government employees can actually take their vacation time with no ill consequences.
   3a. The above items mean that government employees can sit around and do nothing, or watch porn, or whatever while earning their pensions. Try that in private industry.
4. Government employees already get paid about twice what equivalent positions pay in the private sector.
5. The government pensions we’re talking about here are REALLY generous compared with private pensions for which the employees had to pay in to.

I read recently about a government employee in France (although it is probably the same here), where the employee had not actually showed up for work for the last 20 years or so (while still collecting pay) and the only reason he was nabbed is because they couldn’t find him to give him his 25 year service award.

And recently here, IRS employees who were caught red handed illegally persecuting Tea Party and other conservative institutions. Their punishment? They lost their bonuses. My thoughts, in the order they occurred:

1. What, the average Joe IRS Guy gets a bonus?
2. What, they’re not getting demoted?
3. What, they’re not getting their pay reduced?
4. What, they’re not getting fired?
5. What, they’re not going to JAIL?

The government is a joke, an epidemic of incompetence. And we are all the victims of these “servants.”

BTW - I’m not claiming that all government employees are bad. I vaguely recall, a long time ago meeting one who wasn’t so bad.

 

[JimG]

Government employees can be fired. I’ve seen them get fired. Yes, they can take their vacation time, as can employees of other companies. I’ve seen incompetent government employees, and I’ve seen incompetent private sector employees. As for pensions, they are made up of three components: actual pensions which is lower now than in the past, +Thrift Savings Plan, which is a 401K, plus Social Security. Wages are withheld to contribute to pensions.

If anyone wants to apply for one of these plush government jobs you can do so here.

 

[ricmat]

Government employees can be fired. I’ve seen them get fired.

“Fired at will, for any reason whatsoever?” That’s OK in private industry (here in CA anyway).

Yes, they can take their vacation time, as can employees of other companies.

I worked for GE for 22 years, and other private sector companies for an additional 15 years. NO, you can’t take your vacation time. If you do, you are being “not a team player.” That puts you at the top of the layoff list.

“How dare you take your vacation time when your project is behind schedule.” Last year’s “A” performance will only get you a “B” this year." “Employees will be graded on a curve…SOMEBODY will get C,D,F and be laid off, etc.”

How many government employees have to deal with those things?

I’ve seen incompetent government employees, and I’ve seen incompetent private sector employees.

Yes, the difference is that the government employees are still there, being incompetent, with no incentive to change. The private sector employees have been fired or laid off, and have probably improved as a result of the experience.

 

[pensmama87]

Here’s a few reasons:

1. Government employees can’t be fired.
2. Government employees can’t be laid off.
3. Government employees can actually take their vacation time with no ill consequences.
   3a. The above items mean that government employees can sit around and do nothing, or watch porn, or whatever while earning their pensions. Try that in private industry.
4. Government employees already get paid about twice what equivalent positions pay in the private sector.
5. The government pensions we’re talking about here are REALLY generous compared with private pensions for which the employees had to pay in to.

I read recently about a government employee in France (although it is probably the same here), where the employee had not actually showed up for work for the last 20 years or so (while still collecting pay) and the only reason he was nabbed is because they couldn’t find him to give him his 25 year service award.

And recently here, IRS employees who were caught red handed illegally persecuting Tea Party and other conservative institutions. Their punishment? They lost their bonuses. My thoughts, in the order they occurred:

1. What, the average Joe IRS Guy gets a bonus?
2. What, they’re not getting demoted?
3. What, they’re not getting their pay reduced?
4. What, they’re not getting fired?
5. What, they’re not going to JAIL?

The government is a joke, an epidemic of incompetence. And we are all the victims of these “servants.”

BTW - I’m not claiming that all government employees are bad. I vaguely recall, a long time ago meeting one who wasn’t so bad.

What kind of government employee are you talking about? Federal, state, county, municipal? Are you including public safety personnel? Teachers?

Your 1-5 on government employees pay and benefits are ludicrous. It may be true for some governments or some departments during some points in time, but it’s far from true across the board.

Around here there are areas that have basically no local government anymore. Everything is contracted out to the nearest town or to a private company. Those towns are not doing so hot.

 

[ricmat]

Government employees can be fired. I’ve seen them get fired. Yes, they can take their vacation time, as can employees of other companies. I’ve seen incompetent government employees, and I’ve seen incompetent private sector employees. As for pensions, they are made up of three components: actual pensions which is lower now than in the past, +Thrift Savings Plan, which is a 401K, plus Social Security. Wages are withheld to contribute to pensions.

If anyone wants to apply for one of these plush government jobs you can do so here.

I’m dealing with a couple of “government employee” issues right now.

1. Half my US Postal Service mail gets delivered to somebody else’s house. I know this because half of their mail gets delivered to my house (which I give to them personally). This has been going on for years, despite my “in person” appeals to the postal service.
2. I recently terminated my Obamacare plan because I became eligible for Medicare. The Obamacare exchange insisted, despite many phone calls, on referring me to MediCal - which I’m not eligible for since I’ll have Medicare. And my wife wanted to keep her portion of our joint Obamacare plan, so she had to re-enlist for Obamacare. But they won’t let her. They insist on putting her on MediCal as well. Note: neither of us want to be on Medical, neither of us actually qualify for it, neither of us actually applied for it, and we made repeated phone calls about it but we have a stack of paper a foot high telling us we’re on it. But she’s probably not on ANY health plan right now because of this incompetence. What a mess.

Somebody at these agencies should be fired, but they won’t be. Because they are government workers.

I wonder how many government workers, by percentage, are disciplined or fired compared to the private sector?

The government’s attitude is “we need to be a cancer and make ourselves grow, grow, grow…while not doing anything actually useful.” Private industry would go out of business if this was their attitude. But the government never goes out of business, because the solution to everything is to raise taxes.

 

[JimG]

I recall when the great majority of air traffic controllers went on an illegal strike. They were all fired. By President Reagan.

I knew a manager in a federal agency who came out of a meeting with his boss, and told me, “I’ve just been fired.” And he was. I’ve seen times in the federal government when it was nearly impossible to schedule vacation time because of backlog, and only so much can be carried over without losing it.

And I’m a fan of smaller government. There are entire agencies I would abolish. But you can’t just cancel a pension for someone whose worked 30 years for it. The money going to the TSP and the pension withholding is the employees money, not the government’s. If you cancel the pension, first, someone’s going to get sued, and second, the employee’s money has to be returned with interest.

 

[ricmat]

What kind of government employee are you talking about? Federal, state, county, municipal?

Yes, yes, yes.

Are you including public safety personnel? Teachers?

Yes - police in this area make about $200K including overtime. Most private sector folks don’t even get paid overtime. I worked on average a 55 hour week for my entire career (now retired) and never got a penny of overtime.

Teachers - yes. Look at their union. They have no concern for students. What they want is more pay, fewer hours, more benefits. My wife was a teacher.

Your 1-5 on government employees pay and benefits are ludicrous. It may be true for some governments or some departments during some points in time, but it’s far from true across the board.

As I said, I met a good government employee once. I’ll be generous and say I probably forgot about one or two.

Around here there are areas that have basically no local government anymore. Everything is contracted out to the nearest town or to a private company. Those towns are not doing so hot.

If private companies are actually doing the work, why do you need the government to contract it out? It sounds like they’re “getting their cut” for not doing any work.

 

[ricmat]

I recall when the great majority of air traffic controllers went on an illegal strike. They were all fired. By President Reagan.

The reason you remember it is because it was so unusual. And it took a personal action by the President to make it happen. That’s not the normal case.

I knew a manager in a federal agency who came out of a meeting with his boss, and told me, “I’ve just been fired.” And he was. I’ve seen times in the federal government when it was nearly impossible to schedule vacation time because of backlog, and only so much can be carried over without losing it.

And I’m a fan of smaller government. There are entire agencies I would abolish. But you can’t just cancel a pension for someone whose worked 30 years for it. The money going to the TSP and the pension withholding is the employees money, not the government’s. If you cancel the pension, first, someone’s going to get sued, and second, the employee’s money has to be returned with interest.

I’m not supporting taking existing pensions away.

What I am for is making government salaries, benefits, pensions, etc. no more than what is available in the private sector. The government DOES have more in this regard, and they have no incentive to do a good job. The incentive is only to grow government, which I suppose to some degree demands a huge amount of incompetence, so that they always need more more more.

 

[Neofight]

I’ve received a government pension for the last 23 years, taking home more in pension money than I did when I was a government employee, and I never paid a dime into “the system”, while I earn a salary about 5x what I made as a government employee today.

I appreciate the tax dollars paid by all of you, and hope to receive those monthly checks for years to come, while being forever grateful to my fellow citizens and this great nation.

And, I don’t feel a twinge of guilt.

 

[Crusaderbear]

To op…To be fair & honest, why don’t you state the specifics of your complaint, why do you find those willing to work for government so undeserving? Please try to be honest. For the record, I am retired military, and a working teacher…I earn my pensions. Just curious…not trying to start a troll war.

 

[PseuTonym]

Shall we also abolish pensions received by people who worked for Boeing, P&G, Google, Microsoft, and GM?

It’s a good question for GM.

As a condition of bailing out General Motors, it might have been a good idea for governments to require that General Motors abolish pensions for highly-paid senior executives at GM who …

#1 … are receiving enough income that they should be able to save and invest enough for a comfortable retirement, and

#2 … failed to manage the company well enough that it could survive without bailout money from governments.

On the other hand, consider President Obama, an elected government official. He should continue to receive – as pension income every year – the same inflation-adjusted annual income that he is paid now. That is partly because the law doesn’t allow him to serve a third term, even though voters might have chosen to give him a third term if they had that option. It’s also partly because – like people who build nuclear weapons – we don’t want money troubles to motivate them to work for dangerous people who can afford to pay the wages.

The problem is not merely that some people are obviously dangerous or untrustworthy. The problem is that there could be some people who have very good reputations and who are secretly pursuing evil projects. With assistance from highly skilled people, they could succeed in their evil projects. Furthermore, there is free will. Nobody can know for certain what people might do with the assistance that President Obama could provide after he completes his second term.

Of course, President Obama is likely to remain active after he retires. However, if he chooses from among various unpaid volunteer positions, then money will play no role in his decision of what causes to promote. His pension could give him that freedom, provided that it is 100% of what he is paid now, plus whatever is required to adjust for inflation.

 

[ricmat]

To be fair & honest, why don’t you state the specifics of your complaint, why do you find those willing to work for government so undeserving? Please try to be honest. For the record, I am retired military, and a working teacher…I earn my pensions. Just curious…not trying to start a troll war.

I"m not sure who your comment was addressed to, but my position is that government workers are deserving, but not more deserving than those who worked in the private sector.

So…how many people in the private sector can accomplish a double pension? Not many I presume, because most people can’t retire after 20 years with a full pension available immediately.

That having been said, I have a great deal of respect for the military, and I thank you for your service.

 

[ricmat]

As a related item…it should be noted that most private sector companies do NOT have any sort of pensions. They used to, but not so much any more. And even if you do have a pension:

1. It doesn’t kick in until you are 60+, or 65.
2. It can disappear (like with Enron) if the company has difficulties.

Advantage - government employees. Again.

Late edit: Also, you’d be surprised how many private sector employees get laid off or fired just a month or two before they become eligible for a pension, in those rare occasions when their company actually has pensions available.

 

[JimG]

The reason you remember it is because it was so unusual. And it took a personal action by the President to make it happen. That’s not the normal case.

I’m not supporting taking existing pensions away.

What I am for is making government salaries, benefits, pensions, etc. no more than what is available in the private sector. The government DOES have more in this regard, and they have no incentive to do a good job. The incentive is only to grow government, which I suppose to some degree demands a huge amount of incompetence, so that they always need more more more.

Okay. You want to change (state and federal) systems to provide no more than is available in the private sector. But the private sector varies hugely. Some employers provide no pensions. Some provide quite generous pensions. Who determines the mean to be used? Most likely some government bureaucrat!

I don’t understand the part about working huge amounts of overtime for no extra pay. Doesn’t the Fair Labor Standards Act have something to say on that? I seem to recall employees winning lawsuits for back pay in such situations.

But if new government employees at all levels are hired with no provision for a pension, I expect that will also affect the number and quality of applicants.

 

[Crusaderbear]

I"m not sure who your comment was addressed to, but my position is that government workers are deserving, but not more deserving than those who worked in the private sector.

So…how many people in the private sector can accomplish a double pension? Not many I presume, because most people can’t retire after 20 years with a full pension available immediately.

That having been said, I have a great deal of respect for the military, and I thank you for your service.

Fair enough. Glad you aren’t in a position to do anything more than complain

 

[PseuTonym]

if new government employees at all levels are hired with no provision for a pension, I expect that will also affect the number and quality of applicants.

Judgments of quality will vary depending upon who is judging.

For example …

Through a family friend, Monica Lewinsky secured an internship in the White House office of Chief of Staff Leon Panetta. After her internship ended, she accepted a paid position in the White House Office of Legislative Affairs.

Link:
biography.com/people/monica-lewinsky-21292085#white-house-career-and-relationship-with-bill-clinton

Consider a hypothetical, counter-factual scenario. Suppose that Monica Lewinsky had been offered a position in the White House Office of Legislative Affairs that paid a salary, but that included no pension.

Would Monica Lewinsky have refused the offer and instead gone to work for Boeing, P&G, Google, Microsoft, or GM?

And if Monica Lewinsky had said “no” to a government position that included no pension, then would there be a shortage of people willing to work at the White House, or a shortage of high-quality people willing to work at the White House?

 

[ndsolt]

“Fired at will, for any reason whatsoever?” That’s OK in private industry (here in CA anyway).

I worked for GE for 22 years, and other private sector companies for an additional 15 years. NO, you can’t take your vacation time. If you do, you are being “not a team player.” That puts you at the top of the layoff list.

“How dare you take your vacation time when your project is behind schedule.” Last year’s “A” performance will only get you a “B” this year." “Employees will be graded on a curve…SOMEBODY will get C,D,F and be laid off, etc.”

How many government employees have to deal with those things?

Yes, the difference is that the government employees are still there, being incompetent, with no incentive to change. The private sector employees have been fired or laid off, and have probably improved as a result of the experience.

It does seem government entities do a better job of maintaining a professional enviroment. The principal at the school I teach at has been told to cool his jets because of several incidents.

People I know who have worked retail have told me about people kept around because they are a body

 

[ricmat]

Okay. You want to change (state and federal) systems to provide no more than is available in the private sector. But the private sector varies hugely. Some employers provide no pensions. Some provide quite generous pensions. Who determines the mean to be used? Most likely some government bureaucrat!

I’d be very happy taking the average, instead of 2X the average. And remember, most private sector employees will never have any pension, no matter how long they work.

I don’t understand the part about working huge amounts of overtime for no extra pay. Doesn’t the Fair Labor Standards Act have something to say on that? I seem to recall employees winning lawsuits for back pay in such situations.

No, salaried employees are “exempt” from getting overtime pay. My 55 hour work week was well below what most of my compatriots worked. I was a real slacker.

This is not unusual.

But if new government employees at all levels are hired with no provision for a pension, I expect that will also affect the number and quality of applicants.

If private companies had good pensions (or any pensions), then that would siphon off good applicants. But most don’t.