Inconvenient mathematics for "no-God" biologists

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Let’s use the law of probability ,a scientific method.
Chemical components have never sprung spontaneously from nowhere, in the natural world as studied thoroughout the times.

Since it never happened “since” we started observing,what is more likely:

A) That it did not happen “before” we could start observing “either”.

B)That it did happen once ,and never again afterwards.:rolleyes:

Objective answer ,please.

Another method used by science, is to be able to reproduce the phenomenon.
Can a scientist make chemical components originate from nowhere?(no mixing of ingredients please, remember there were no ingredients.)

We have now an elaborate description on how the making of the cake evolved, but without the eggs and the flour…🤷 It is no small detail
 
Let’s use the law of probability ,a scientific method.
Chemical components have never sprung spontaneously from nowhere, in the natural world as studied thoroughout the times.

Since it never happened “since” we started observing,what is more likely:

A) That it did not happen “before” we could start observing “either”.

B)That it did happen once ,and never again afterwards.:rolleyes:

Objective answer ,please.

Another method used by science, is to be able to reproduce the phenomenon.
Can a scientist make chemical components originate from nowhere?(no mixing of ingredients please, remember there were no ingredients.)

We have now an elaborate description on how the making of the cake evolved, but without the eggs and the flour…🤷 It is no small detail
I don’t understand your question. Are you saying that either something came from nothing at one time or it didn’t? There is “something” now, so it would seem that either something once came from nothing or there was always something. Currently, science and Catholicism are in agreement that at some point something came from nothing in a big bang of creation, but that is a different question. This thread is about the origin of life from existing matter, not the origin of matter.
 
The quote (or similar variations) has been repeated again and again by arch-evolutionists. It is not an accurate statement.

Those scientists who believe in God would, in any case say “God did it.” But then follow on with “I wonder how God did it?” The door to scientific inquiry is not closed, but is left open as it has been to all those wonderful Catholic scientists to whom we owe such a great debt.

But it is interesting that whenever evolution is questioned as the particular method by which God did it, the arch-evolutionists seem to always leap to that straw-man quote as a defense. For them, it seems, evolution can not be questioned, ever. There are no flaws. There are no missing pieces. There can not be, ever, any discussion of evolution except to praise it and glorify it (excuse the religious analogy here). “If you can’t come up with something better yourself, then you MUST believe that random mutations and natural selection caused complex life.” Any criticism or questioning of the TOE is net with derision and scorn. “Unless you have a PhD in biology, you have no right to criticize. And oh, those who do have PhD’s and criticize are idiots.” etc.
The defense of evolutionary theory is perfectly dogmatic, but only insofar as it must defend the scientific method itself. Science ahcieves what it does because it applies methodological naturalism – natural explanations for natural phenomena. To the extent it wavers even a little bit and admits of supernatural answers, it’s entire epistemology is invalidated. So, when you wonder “how did God do that?”, unless you are pointing to a physically observed, empirically demonstrated God, you are undermining the method by which says has anything to say at all – naturalism. It’s no problem if you do have a God who we can observe and watch do Godly things, and make the sun blink on and off on demand, or move the stars around to spell our names in the sky like a parlor trick. That’s a natural explanation for natural phenomena, even as amazing as those feats would be.

So the objection is not “you don’t know the data”, although that is certainly a manifest problem for many critics of evolution. It is rather, “you don’t know the method”, or if you do, “you’re advocating the corruption of the method”.

As it happens there are always a number of ongoing disputes about evolutionary theory. Punk Eeq was a hotly contested controversy for a while, and still is in some circles. Evo-Devo portends a structural remodel of the modern synthesis, and that, if you are following the biology community, has lots of criticism flying in both directions. What may mask some of that for you, though, is that it’s academic criticism, earnest disputes over eveidences and their interpretations and implications. It can get heated, but the dispute is a generative, healthy one, so at the end of the day, a means of resolving the dispute is sought through testing and trial, and everyone shakes hands and moves on when/if the results come in that adjudicate it one way or another.

Think Hawking vs. Susskind on black holes (black hole war), or George Gamow’s ideas versus supporters of the Steady State theory. That kind of thing, happening in biology, on many different fronts. In terms of a natural theory that is a competitor against evolution – something that supplants common descent, descent with variation, natural selection, etc. with something else… there just are no other players. It’s wide open to anyone who can synthesize a theory that would overturn eveolutionary theory, and outperform it in explanatory power, evidence-fitting, predictive success and falsifiability.
Those scientists who believe in God and continue to ask “How did God do it?” are in fact more open to reason and the proper use of science than those who declare evolution as a closed case. In fact, it is their minds that are closed.
Science is never a closed case, by definition. It’s only dogmatic about its method – natural explanations for natural phenomena. No supernaturalism allowed, ever, by necessity.
Leela, I’m ranting on here - not particularly against you. But you pushed one of my hot buttons with the quote above. 🙂
Kenneth Miller, for example, believes some of the mutations which science calls “random” were in fact God-guided, manipulated “behind the quantum curtain”. That’s a belief that is impossible to verify or falsify. He’s welcome to it. But while that is his personal conviction, as a matter of science, Miller (a practicing Catholic) would be the first to say that as far as science goes – science used properly! – the mutations we say are “without cause” or telic goal, so far as we can see. I’m not holding up Miller as some arch-authority on this, but rather using him as an example of one who is mindful of the discipline of science, and what that requires, and who is yet completely free to embrace metaphysical and religious beliefs that fit with Catholicism as an “extra-scientific” overlay. It’s only when theists overreach and suppose that methodological naturalism should for some reason capitulate to religious dogma, and adopt supernaturalism as part of its method that Miller, and the rest of the science community get up in arms.

And well they should. Once supernaturalism has a foot in the door, it is invincible, and science cannot help but be reduced to theology. Natural explanations do not stand a chance against supernatural answers. Even a “correct” natural answer cannot compete with an “incorrect” supernatural answer.

-TS
 
Let’s use the law of probability ,a scientific method.
Chemical components have never sprung spontaneously from nowhere, in the natural world as studied thoroughout the times.
I understand you to be speaking in informal terms here, but chemical elements are not thought to have just sprung spontaneously from nowhere. It took a bit of cooling through expansion after the Planck Time (t=0) for the plasma to cool sufficiently to where a phase transition occurred, producing the first hadrons and leptons which, after further cooling, and yet another phase transition, nucleosynthesis that enables formation of atomic elements, and thus, molecules and chemical compounds.

That may be what “from nowhere” means to you, but just so we’re clear, we have a good idea where atoms, molecules and chemical compounds came from. What’s not known is where the energy/matter at t=0 that enabled the formation of all that stuff came from.
Since it never happened “since” we started observing,what is more likely:
A) That it did not happen “before” we could start observing “either”.
B)That it did happen once ,and never again afterwards.:rolleyes:
The probabilities of A) and B) are inscrutable. We do not have what is needed to even guess at the their respective likelihoods. If you disagree, then show the math.
Objective answer ,please.
Done. Objectively, neither A) or B) support probability calculations. We cannot determine the numerator or the denominator we need. The phase space for our calculations is undefined. Any probabilities you might want to provide will be demonstrably subjective – I encourage you to try, if you disagree, and we will examine the objective basis for your numerator and denominator.
Another method used by science, is to be able to reproduce the phenomenon.
Can a scientist make chemical components originate from nowhere?(no mixing of ingredients please, remember there were no ingredients.)
We have now an elaborate description on how the making of the cake evolved, but without the eggs and the flour…🤷 It is no small detail
It’s smaller than small, for science. It’s out of scope! Scientifically, where the “eggs and flour came from” is a confused question, a non-scientific question.

-TS
 
…if we can agree, that whether or not life and its wonders were “intelligently designed” or are simply emergent properties of impersonal, self-sufficent law, there are pathways that connect “diffuse atoms” to the formation of animals like you and me, albeit across time spans of billions of years, I think we have sufficient accord.

-TS
TS,

I thank you for quadrupling my knowledge of life processes at a molecular scale. Though I do not understand them sufficiently to do so, I would use them to completely rework my probalistic arguments.

I believe that the universe may very well have been designed as you picture it, yet the “Frankenstein” question arises when we imagine “proper atom placement and movement” as sufficient for life. Until and unless scientists can initiate life from inert chemicals, I will believe that life requires a Creator (just as I believe that the Big Bang had an “Initiator”, a “first cause”. Life was not its own first cause; the universe did not cause itself.

Briefly: my reference to Heisenberg Uncertainty as making invalid any notion that “natural selction” extends to nanoscale was vague. Let me say instead that uncertainty in measurement at the quantum level (e.g. <10^-10 m due to wave-like behavior of matter) is a “brick wall” that will forever limit our ability to completely know why chemicals bond as they do and not in other logically possible ways.

Since we must use matter and energy (e.g. electrons and photons) as tools to try to understand what matter and energy are (and since we ourselves are made of matter and energy) our comprehension of the universe is inherently limited. In others words, we may imagine that the design of the universe at that scale exists, but it is forever hidden from us (physicists have known this since the 1920s, but have pushed ahead a bit with the standard model of fundamental particles and interactions, and more recent, highly imaginative attempts)
 
It seems to me that for those who believe God exists, God creates and sustains everything, and that they shouldn’t resort to “God of the gaps” thinking in only attributing to God that for which science does not currently have satisfactory answers. It sounds like bad theology as well as bad science to me, but then I’m not so sure what good theology is.
Leela,

I believe that your posts are making a strong contribution to our joint effort to focus the questions we’re considering (e.g. origin of universe vs. origin of life; God “vs.” science as explanations for natural phenomena). My “loaded” thread title (inconven. math for no-God Biologists) has had more than its intended effect: I’m in contact with some highly biology-knowledgeable people AND they’re willing to philosophize!

I may need to wait until the weekend to develop my next post, which will be aimed at trying to synthesize the “best” of what everyone has said here, to see if we can establish scientific and philosophical baselines.

Thank you!
 
Thank you Touchstone for your answer"What is not known is where the energy/matter at t=o that enabled the formation of all that stuff came from"
Am I the only one that thinks that that is a very important point?:confused:
 
Stuart Kauffman: Right. You also have all the proteins. . . . Let’s suppose that there are 25,000 genes. And 2,000 of them are playing the role of regulating one another and regulating the other 22,500. Just imagine that genes can only be on or off. That’s false. That’s an idealization. Then how many possible patterns of gene activity are there?
Well there’s 25,000 genes. So each could be on or off. So there’s 2x2x2 25,000 times. Well that’s 2 to the 25,000th. Right?
Suzan Mazur: Right.
Stuart Kauffman: Which is something like 10 to the 7,000th. Okay? There’s only 10 to the 80th particles in the whole universe. Are you stunned?
Suzan Mazur: It’s getting pretty staggering . . .
Stuart Kauffman: So, 25,000 is plenty if you start thinking about all the possible combinations of their activities. It’s super- hyper-astronomical.
 
Thank you Touchstone for your answer"What is not known is where the energy/matter at t=o that enabled the formation of all that stuff came from"
Am I the only one that thinks that that is a very important point?:confused:
I think it’s one of the most profound questions we might come up with. But it’s depth is more than matched by its intractability. We are “over the event horizon” so to speak from anything that would provide empirical answers to that question. What we have left is conjecture, and conjectures pretending to be knowledge, sometimes under the guise of “religion” or “theology”, or “mysticism”.

It’s deeply unsatisfying to formulate such an important question, only to be told (or to conclude for yourself) that there is little to no hope of every getting beyond musings and conjectures, which I suggest helps explain why you see conjecture being packaged up and sold as “knowledge” or “answers” or “absolute truth” – where there is market demand, supply will follow, and so the supply for “answers” is rich and diverse.

I think very few would disagree that it’s a very important question, though. Even for the most important questions though, when a question is intractable, you either devote some effort to getting traction somehow, or you move on, and devote your energies to matters there you might find some purchase.

Given the prospects for any kind of tractability on this question, it remains important, but secondary to practical considerations – carpe diem! and all, doncha know.

-TS
 
…But there’s no way to rule out “supernatural origin” as a metaphysical explanation for the existence of our universe.

-TS
TS makes a key philosophical point here. Anyone who claims to “know” that there was no supernatural event (nor event designer) associated with the origin of the universe is in fact making a statement of faith. Often, this “brand” of faith (I have mine own “brand”, of course) develops in the context of a false dichotomy: “(FALSE) Either science is correct or the Bible is (literally) correct.” Thus science itself (a human activity) can become a “Science-religion” that competes with “the-Bible-religion”, and does so rather convincingly within the rules of this oversimplified game.

In the minds of atheists, of course, these two “teams” are named, “No God” and “God”. If the “God” team offers nothing more than literal Bible interpretation arguments (which are unreasonable in the face of observable fact) it becomes understandably difficult for atheists to avoid dismissing their arguments or even openly mocking their ignorance of nature. Meanwhile, the stereotypical “Bible thumpers” confidently believe that the atheists are “going to hell”, etc.

Breaking this cycle requires an enlightened context for debate, which the Catholic Church continues to espouse. I will lay this out in a new thread entitled, “Faith versus Science: a false philosophical framework”
 
If the “God” team offers nothing more than literal Bible interpretation arguments (which are unreasonable in the face of observable fact) it becomes understandably difficult for atheists to avoid dismissing their arguments or even openly mocking their ignorance of nature.

Even so, this mocking business can cut both ways. Why did it take science thousands of years to show that the universe was created at a moment in time followed by a blast of light when for thousands of years Genesis has been telling us the same. Also, If it took science thousands of years to prove a viable claim for evolution (changing life forms through time) how did Genesis know thousands of years ago that life began in the sea and moved to the air and the land? And if science could only in modern times prove that man appears very late in the evolutionary process, how did Genesis know without the theory of evolution that God saved the creation of Adam and Eve for last?

Genesis was deeply intuitive. Not correct in every detail, it nonetheless presents the general pattern of creation with no help from science, thank you.

"For the scientist who has lived by the faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.” Robert Jastrow – Founder and director of NASA’S Goddard Institute for Space Studies, Professor of Astronomy at Columbia University, Professor of Earth Studies at Dartmouth College
 
This thread has become so interesting that I am going to print it out.
But before I do that I will wait and see how it develops from here.
 
Genesis…presents the general pattern of creation with no help from science…
Charlemangne II,

Your exposition of the correspondence between Genesis and the Big Bang/Evolution is very compelling. It makes me wonder how creation stories from other religions fare against scientific evidence. I’ll start a new thread in non-Catholic religions to find out.

Thank you!

Tom
 
Even so, this mocking business can cut both ways. Why did it take science thousands of years to show that the universe was created at a moment in time followed by a blast of light when for thousands of years Genesis has been telling us the same. Also, If it took science thousands of years to prove a viable claim for evolution (changing life forms through time) how did Genesis know thousands of years ago that life began in the sea and moved to the air and the land? And if science could only in modern times prove that man appears very late in the evolutionary process, how did Genesis know without the theory of evolution that God saved the creation of Adam and Eve for last?
Not only that, but science still hasn’t even figured out that every species in the world was once loaded onto a large boat in male/female pairs to save them from a flood that covered the entire earth.
 
Not only that, but science still hasn’t even figured out that every species in the world was once loaded onto a large boat in male/female pairs to save them from a flood that covered the entire earth.
You should know that is not what is claimed. What is claimed is that “kinds” were loaded on the ark which by magnitudes reduces the number and space required.
 
Not only that, but science still hasn’t even figured out that every species in the world was once loaded onto a large boat in male/female pairs to save them from a flood that covered the entire earth.
Leela,

You remind us that there are many stories in the Bible whose literal truth values seem highly doubtful in the light of science. Charlemagne II’s essential point however, understood in context (i.e. as a possible rebuttal to atheist mockery of biblical literalism), is not about biblical literalism. It leads to interesting questions about the correspondence of ancient (pre-scientific) texts with relatively recent scientific knowledge. Please consider visiting this thread for more about this:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=326946

-Tom
 
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