Incorrect Agnus Dei

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Monkey1976

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I have something of a dilemma at my parish. Our Liturgical Committee has chosen to use the “Mass of Creation” for the Ordinary. Setting aside all of the issues I have with the musical style and with Marty Haugen’s work in general, I’m concerned that the Lamb of God invocation is very much incorrect. The lyrics in question are:

“Jesus, Lamb of God, You take away the sins of the world” (No problem here)
“Jesus, Prince of Peace, You take away the sins of the world” (Where’s the Lamb?)
“Jesus, [INSERT ANY HONORIFIC OTHER THAN “LAMB OF GOD” HERE], You take away the sins of the world”

According to the GIRM, the invocation is listed simply as the Agnus Dei. This, to me, indicates a very specific prayer with very specific words. We’re praying for mercy and peace to the Lamb of God - a clear title with obviously associated imagery pertaining to the Sacrifice of the Mass.

That’s the “rock”. Now the “hard place” - I’m not in good standing. I currently cohabitate with my fiancee (I know, and I’ve already had that discussion here), so I’m not really in a position to make declarations concerning rubrics. Should I let someone else in the parish know of my concerns? Maybe slip an anonymous note under our pastor’s door?

We recently got a new Choir Director, and she is very much of the “Spirit-of-Vatican-II/Nobody-understands-or-wants-Latin/Horizontal-Worship” school of thought. The songs have taken on a decidedly congregational slant since she took over, and I’d like to see our pastor rein her in somewhat.I really don’t want to make this a personal battle, but I also want to be as faithful as I can be in my current situation.
 
Mass of Creation! Yikes! :bigyikes:

In my parish, our music leaders have solved this problem with this piece by simply singing “Jesus, Lamb of God” on each of the three verses - even though the other words are there in the music. It’s eliminates confusion amongst the parishioners, and more in line with the Agnus Dei.

I do believe it was our pastor who insisted on the change.
 
Monkey…

Leaving the specific question aside, forget about your shortcomings. (Cohabitating) I am not saying it is unimportant, just that one need not be impeccable in order to recognize and address other offenses against the Lord or His Church. The logical conclusion of this mindset is anything goes - since none of us are perfect, we have to accept every manner of imperfection. That obviously is not the answer. God uses imperfect people to accomplish His work.
 
We use the “Mass of Creation” for funerals at our church (I am the music director).
The Agnus Dei can be done as usual; ie. “Jesus, Lamb of God” all three times. That’s what we do!
I know those other verses are there (in the music), but I’ve honestly never heard them used.
Aside from your other ‘aversions’ to Haugen and this particular Mass setting, this approach seems to me like a good compromise to suggest to your Liturgical Committee.👍
 
I think before complaining you need to check very carefully that this setting of the Agnus Dei is in fact “very much incorrect”. Whilst it is illicit to change the words of the Mass except where authorised ( or delegated) by legitimate authority of the Holy See, IIRC there is some latitude given to the invocations of the Agnus Dei esp in musical settings. And it’s not as if there is anything heretical there, Jesus IS the Prince of Peace etc. Even if there IS anything illicit being done here, it’s a rather trivial matter. Something that I wouldn’t bother complaining about, but just grin and bear it. I save my complaints for the indisputable and major abuses of the Mass etc, rather than dilute the effectiveness of my “major issue” complaints by firing off a note about every little thing.

And no offence, but I really think that it’s a matter of “take the log out of your own eye first”.
 
Monkey1976 said:
I have something of a dilemma at my parish. Our Liturgical Committee has chosen to use the “Mass of Creation” for the Ordinary. Setting aside all of the issues I have with the musical style and with Marty Haugen’s work in general, I’m concerned that the Lamb of God invocation is very much incorrect. The lyrics in question are:

“Jesus, Lamb of God, You take away the sins of the world” (No problem here)
“Jesus, Prince of Peace, You take away the sins of the world” (Where’s the Lamb?)
“Jesus, [INSERT ANY HONORIFIC OTHER THAN “LAMB OF GOD” HERE], You take away the sins of the world”

According to the GIRM, the invocation is listed simply as the Agnus Dei. This, to me, indicates a very specific prayer with very specific words. We’re praying for mercy and peace to the Lamb of God - a clear title with obviously associated imagery pertaining to the Sacrifice of the Mass.

That’s the “rock”. Now the “hard place” - I’m not in good standing. I currently cohabitate with my fiancee (I know, and I’ve already had that discussion here), so I’m not really in a position to make declarations concerning rubrics. Should I let someone else in the parish know of my concerns? Maybe slip an anonymous note under our pastor’s door?

We recently got a new Choir Director, and she is very much of the “Spirit-of-Vatican-II/Nobody-understands-or-wants-Latin/Horizontal-Worship” school of thought. The songs have taken on a decidedly congregational slant since she took over, and I’d like to see our pastor rein her in somewhat.I really don’t want to make this a personal battle, but I also want to be as faithful as I can be in my current situation.
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You must be guided by what your Bishop has instructed about the implementation of the GIRM in his diocese. Our Bishop has specially stated that this is prohibited, period.
 
I’d like to thank anyone who may have prayed for this situation to be peacefully resolved. A wonderful compromise came over our choir on Sunday - with no planning, no prompting, no indication that it would be done any differently than what I had described in the first post, we simply sang the “Jesus, Lamb of God” invocation according to the rubrics and ignored the other honorifics listed. So, while I still have personal issues with the quality of the music, at least we’re doing it right 😃
 
Once upon a time, not only troped Kyries were common, but troped Glorias, Sanctuses, and even Agnus Deis, as is described here.
 
From GIRM:
  1. It is not permitted to substitute other chants for those found in the Order of Mass, such
    as at the Agnus Dei.
From Redemptionis Sacramentum

59.] The reprobated practice by which Priests, Deacons or the faithful here and there alter or vary at will the texts of the Sacred Liturgy that they are charged to pronounce, must cease. For in doing thus, they render the celebration of the Sacred Liturgy unstable, and not infrequently distort the authentic meaning of the Liturgy.

Changed wording at regular masses is not to be allowed and falls under the classification of “grave abuses”
 
Though I’m glad that the original poster’s situation was resolved by the Holy Spirit :), many folks have to deal with such abuses unabated. So, my suggestion (which I learned from my DH), is to very quiety (under your breath) simply recite the proper words, not to make a scene (obviously), but to show proper reverence for the Sacrament. Of course, this can be done for a “pop” version of anything – Agnus Dei, Our Father, etc. God bless you!

Kristen
 
I’ve never heard the words to the Agnus Dei changed when it is sung in Latin. I don’t think Haugen has messed it up yet. I think that’s the beauty of using Latin. Few people would know enough to change it correctly. And even if they did, even fewer people in the pews would know what was said.

Seriously though, I don’t even like the “Jesus, Lamb of God”. The words in the Roman Missal are “Lamb of God”. Period. End of discussion.
 
Monkey1976 said:
I have something of a dilemma at my parish. Our Liturgical Committee has chosen to use the “Mass of Creation” for the Ordinary. Setting aside all of the issues I have with the musical style and with Marty Haugen’s work in general, I’m concerned that the Lamb of God invocation is very much incorrect. The lyrics in question are:

“Jesus, Lamb of God, You take away the sins of the world” (No problem here)
“Jesus, Prince of Peace, You take away the sins of the world” (Where’s the Lamb?)
“Jesus, [INSERT ANY HONORIFIC OTHER THAN “LAMB OF GOD” HERE], You take away the sins of the world”

According to the GIRM, the invocation is listed simply as the Agnus Dei. This, to me, indicates a very specific prayer with very specific words. We’re praying for mercy and peace to the Lamb of God - a clear title with obviously associated imagery pertaining to the Sacrifice of the Mass.

That’s the “rock”. Now the “hard place” - I’m not in good standing. I currently cohabitate with my fiancee (I know, and I’ve already had that discussion here), so I’m not really in a position to make declarations concerning rubrics. Should I let someone else in the parish know of my concerns? Maybe slip an anonymous note under our pastor’s door?

We recently got a new Choir Director, and she is very much of the “Spirit-of-Vatican-II/Nobody-understands-or-wants-Latin/Horizontal-Worship” school of thought. The songs have taken on a decidedly congregational slant since she took over, and I’d like to see our pastor rein her in somewhat.I really don’t want to make this a personal battle, but I also want to be as faithful as I can be in my current situation.
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No wonder Pope St. Pius V imposed the Mass that was in use in Rome over the entire Catholic Church, excluding rites older than 200 years back in the 16’th century.

Check the form of the Novus Ordo Latin text. Is the local parish council allowed to deviate from the current Roman Missal for the Agnus Dei?

Ken
 
It is my understanding that Haugen’s “Mass of Creation” came out of Matthew Fox’s Creation theology. Rev. Fox has since left the Catholic Church and joined the Episcopal church. He was silenced for a year in 1988 for his heretical views. Better check the wording in Haugen’s work.
 
What’s wrong with the musical style of Mass of Creation? I think its the best one out available out of the standard Mass settings typically available.
 
Just joined a parish where it is not a problem. They use Gregorian Chant in Latin.
 
Haugen’s *Mass of Creation *is almost twenty-five years old already! Most parishes have moved beyond the Haugen ‘era’.
 
peary said:
Haugen’s *Mass of Creation *is almost twenty-five years old already! Most parishes have moved beyond the Haugen ‘era’.
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My home parish (which I rarely attend except to cantor once in a while) still uses it, unfortunately. Although they do keep to only “Lamb of God”. But I remember as a child, almost any church I’d attend for mass would use the other “options”.

Where I regularly attend mass they never use the Mass of Creation, unless a bride specifically requests it for a wedding. That’s very rare as well. One of them actually referred to it on their wedding music sheet and verbalized it as “Massive Creation”.
 
peary said:
Haugen’s *Mass of Creation *is almost twenty-five years old already! Most parishes have moved beyond the Haugen ‘era’.
Click to expand...
If thats the criteria, youre goin to have to throw out an Awful lot of music.
 
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