Incorruptibles

  • Thread starter Thread starter Faith1960
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
F

Faith1960

Guest
Does the Church follow strict criteria for deeming a body incorruptible? Does the CC definitivey rule out peat bog influences and saphonification (sp), the latter I read is a explantion explanation skeptics often attribute to a body being incorruptible.
 
The Church tries to find any plausible natural explanation for the phenomena before considering a supernatural influence.

She excercises utmost due diligence and we cannot fault her for doing so.

The Apostles taught the Church to “test the spirit” that is to test the manifestation to verify that is indeed from God, since the accuser is cunny and very sly and would love to be able to lead people astray, which he does regularly.

–
 
Does the Church follow strict criteria for deeming a body incorruptible? Does the CC definitivey rule out peat bog influences and saphonification (sp), the latter I read is a explantion explanation skeptics often attribute to a body being incorruptible.
Why don’t you read about St. Pius X? You can get a good foundation if you read about him.

Pax,
BP
 
The Church tries to find any plausible natural explanation for the phenomena before considering a supernatural influence.

She excercises utmost due diligence and we cannot fault her for doing so.

The Apostles taught the Church to “test the spirit” that is to test the manifestation to verify that is indeed from God, since the accuser is cunny and very sly and would love to be able to lead people astray, which he does regularly.

–
IMO, the incorruptibles that have wax masks on to cover dark spots don’t count as being incorruptible. Are there any bodies that have remained preserved without the addition of a wax mask or anything else unnatural?
 
Also, I’ve read that the incorruptible bodies found were supple not stiff, but aren’t all bodies supple after the x number of hours rigor mortis subsides?
 
Well, spots, marks or even partial degradation of the body do not tell the whole story, you need to realize that the determination of incorruptible is NOT pronounced by the Church.
It is rather the impossibility for science to explain the level of preservation of the body sometime after many centuries that provides the proof.

A mask is merely a poetic liberty toward the faithfull and it is not done underhandedly. It is clearly stated.

When a medical doctor examines a corpse that has been dead 200 or more years and the flesh is perfectly preserved to the point to appear almost alive with no signs of degradation or foul smell, but actually manisfest a sweet odour. And after examining the samples with more sofisticated and modern equipment without finding chemicals that could explain the preservation by “natural” means.
What else is left?
St. Bernadette has been examined by forensic doctors 3 times since her death as an example. The result is, the longer time passes the more stumped the scientist are.

At what point do we allow ourselves to be convinced?

Are we going to be like the pharisees that Jesus spoke about, that were demanding a sign from Him to convince them HE was the Mesiah?
He refused to give them the sign.

–
 
Well, spots, marks or even partial degradation of the body do not tell the whole story, you need to realize that the determination of incorruptible is NOT pronounced by the Church.
It is rather the impossibility for science to explain the level of preservation of the body sometime after many centuries that provides the proof.

A mask is merely a poetic liberty toward the faithfull and it is not done underhandedly. It is clearly stated.

When a medical doctor examines a corpse that has been dead 200 or more years and the flesh is perfectly preserved to the point to appear almost alive with no signs of degradation or foul smell, but actually manisfest a sweet odour. And after examining the samples with more sofisticated and modern equipment without finding chemicals that could explain the preservation by “natural” means.
What else is left?
St. Bernadette has been examined by forensic doctors 3 times since her death as an example. The result is, the longer time passes the more stumped the scientist are.

At what point do we allow ourselves to be convinced?

Are we going to be like the pharisees that Jesus spoke about, that were demanding a sign from Him to convince them HE was the Mesiah?
He refused to give them the sign.

–
From what I’d read, St. Bernadette’s body was partially mummified. That doesn’t sound incorrupt to me.

Are there saints whose bodies weren’t mummified, no blackened spots, no shrunken noses etc., bodies that were just as fresh and unblemished as the day they died?
 
From what I’d read, St. Bernadette’s body was partially mummified. That doesn’t sound incorrupt to me.
Read where? I’ve read a good deal about her from many sources and never read that she was “partially mummified.”
Are there saints whose bodies weren’t mummified, no blackened spots, no shrunken noses etc., bodies that were just as fresh and unblemished as the day they died?
Yes, Bernadette. A very light coat of wax was applied to her hands and face, but was completely unnecessary. Pictures of her look like a person who is sleeping: St. Bernadette
 
The author has some of the facts wrong. The wax was not applied to cover up any blackness that had “developed.” A light coating of clear wax would not do this. There was a little darkening around the eyes, because the sisters washed her body in water after it had been exhumed and found incorrupt. This wasn’t a good idea, and it was unnecessary. No mummification had taken place due to the soil. We know this because other bodies buried where and in the same way Bernadette’s had been had undergone decay normal for bodies buried in the ground of the convent.
 
The author has some of the facts wrong. The wax was not applied to cover up any blackness that had “developed.” A light coating of clear wax would not do this. There was a little darkening around the eyes, because the sisters washed her body in water after it had been exhumed and found incorrupt. This wasn’t a good idea, and it was unnecessary. No mummification had taken place due to the soil. We know this because other bodies buried where and in the same way Bernadette’s had been had undergone decay normal for bodies buried in the ground of the convent.
From an article on EWTN, which says much of the same thing: ewtn.com/library/mary/bernbody.htm

Andre Ravier’s descriptions of St. Bernadette’s body fail to describe an unblemished, perfectly preserved body. What I’d like to know, is, are there any incorruptible bodies that were found totally preserved, which does not describe St. Bernadette’s body?
 
From an article on EWTN, which says much of the same thing: ewtn.com/library/mary/bernbody.htm

Andre Ravier’s descriptions of St. Bernadette’s body fail to describe an unblemished, perfectly preserved body. What I’d like to know, is, are there any incorruptible bodies that were found totally preserved, which does not describe St. Bernadette’s body?
I don’t know where EWTN got it’s information, but it’s wrong. You can see in the picture that her nose is not shrunken. A light coat of wax would do nothing to “disguise” that. Again, Bernadette’s body was perfectly preserved. This is the testimony of those who were there and saw her body. And pictures don’t lie–no “photo shopping” has been done to the pictures. She was/is as she appears–preserved with no corruption.
 
I don’t know where EWTN got it’s information, but it’s wrong. You can see in the picture that her nose is not shrunken. A light coat of wax would do nothing to “disguise” that. Again, Bernadette’s body was perfectly preserved. This is the testimony of those who were there and saw her body. And pictures don’t lie–no “photo shopping” has been done to the pictures. She was/is as she appears–preserved with no corruption.
I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree, then.
 
I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree, then.
Certainly. That’s fine. I would only point out, though that I have read material which quoted the sisters who saw Bernadette’s exhumed body. I would suggest reading that kind of source rather than speculations by those who have not–who have gotten their information 2nd or 3rd hand. And not only in regards to this issue, but all such matters. 🙂
 
Does anyone know about St. Catherine Laboure? Is her body completely uncorrupt?
 
Does anyone know about St. Catherine Laboure? Is her body completely uncorrupt?
 
I don’t know where EWTN got it’s information, but it’s wrong. You can see in the picture that her nose is not shrunken. A light coat of wax would do nothing to “disguise” that. Again, Bernadette’s body was perfectly preserved. This is the testimony of those who were there and saw her body. And pictures don’t lie–no “photo shopping” has been done to the pictures. She was/is as she appears–preserved with no corruption.
Della no incorrupt saint I know of is perfectly preserved or unblackened and does not slowly deteriorate over time. Unless you can reference source material other-wise I think it best to stick with what is generally known and accepted.

Original descriptions of those exhumations even back in 1925 noted areas of skin were missing for example.
“The body is practically mummified, covered with patches of mildew and quite a notable layer of salts, which appear to be calcium salts. … The skin has disappeared in some places, but it is still present on most parts of the body.” (Source here)

The use of wax wrt incorrupt saints appears tro extend beyond a thin, transparent protective coating. St Bernadette’s body seems to be no exception. She has a solid, moulded wax mask because authorities did not want the blackened face and sunken eyes/nose to disturb the viewing public. Her skin despite that was well preserved on the face. Her body does appear to be one of the best preserved.

So “incorrupt” is pretty much in the eye of the beholder. Does that detract from the sanctity of the saint - I don’t think so. As there are apparantly numerous cases of incorrupt exhumations wrt persons of other races/religions it seems we have to accept that there may be causes other than divine predilection - or that sanctity is not monopolised by us Catholics.
 
Della no incorrupt saint I know of is perfectly preserved or unblackened and does not slowly deteriorate over time. Unless you can reference source material other-wise I think it best to stick with what is generally known and accepted.

Original descriptions of those exhumations even back in 1925 noted areas of skin were missing for example. See here for something typical that can be found within 30secs of searching on the Net. The use of wax wrt incorrupt saints appears tro extend beyond a thin, transparent protective coating. St Bernadette’s body seems to be no exception. Though she does appear to be one of the best preserved.

So “incorrupt” is pretty much in the eye of the beholder. Does that detract from the sanctity of the saint - I don’t think so. As there are apparantly numerous cases of incorrupt exhumations wrt persons of other races/religions it seems we have to accept that there may be causes other than divine predilection - or that sanctity is not monopolised by us Catholics.
👍 IMO, It’s the latter.
 
Della no incorrupt saint I know of is perfectly preserved or unblackened and does not slowly deteriorate over time. Unless you can reference source material other-wise I think it best to stick with what is generally known and accepted.

Original descriptions of those exhumations even back in 1925 noted areas of skin were missing for example.
“The body is practically mummified, covered with patches of mildew and quite a notable layer of salts, which appear to be calcium salts. … The skin has disappeared in some places, but it is still present on most parts of the body.” (Source here)

The use of wax wrt incorrupt saints appears tro extend beyond a thin, transparent protective coating. St Bernadette’s body seems to be no exception. She has a solid, moulded wax mask because authorities did not want the blackened face and sunken eyes/nose to disturb the viewing public. Her skin despite that was well preserved on the face. Her body does appear to be one of the best preserved.

So “incorrupt” is pretty much in the eye of the beholder. Does that detract from the sanctity of the saint - I don’t think so. As there are apparantly numerous cases of incorrupt exhumations wrt persons of other races/religions it seems we have to accept that there may be causes other than divine predilection - or that sanctity is not monopolised by us Catholics.
My main source is Bernadette of Lourdes: Shepherdess, Sister, Saint in which the author Frances Parkinson Keyes interviewed still living sisters of Bernadette’s convent. The wax coating was not a heavy molded mask–it was quite light and was applied to both her face and her hands. The man who applied it was surprised at how supple her skin was. She is as she was–incorrupt. I will trust accounts recorded by one who spoke to those who were eye witnesses.
 
My main source is Bernadette of Lourdes: Shepherdess, Sister, Saint in which the author Frances Parkinson Keyes interviewed still living sisters of Bernadette’s convent. The wax coating was not a heavy molded mask–it was quite light and was applied to both her face and her hands. The man who applied it was surprised at how supple her skin was. She is as she was–incorrupt. I will trust accounts recorded by one who spoke to those who were eye witnesses.
Della if you are really interested in the truth of this matter then you will investigate all the sources, especially the professional testimony of medical specialists who provided reports at each of her three exhumations as linked below. If we simply cherry pick less than robust sources that agree with our own predelections it is hard to ever escape our own limitations and gain wisdom.

I quote:
“In 1925, the church exhumed the body for a third time. They took relics, which were sent to Rome. A precise imprint of the face was molded so that the firm of Pierre Imans in Paris could make a wax mask based on the imprints and on some genuine photos to be placed on her body. This was common practice for relics in France as it was feared that the blackish tinge to the face and the sunken eyes and nose would make an unpleasant impression on the public. Imprints of the hands were also taken for the presentation of the body and the making of wax casts.” (The Body of St. Bernadette at Catholic Pilgrims of Mary and Jesus website)

Clearly “sunken eyes” and “blackish tinge” cannot be hidden by a thin transparent coating of wax.

As Aquinas put it so well 800 years ago, “with wisdom comes grief.”
We must be able to grieve and let go of our cherished ideas when they do not accord with reality.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top