D
Della
Guest
I have researched all reliable sources. Thank you for your interest in my education, but I know the truth of the matter. 
- Status
B
Blue_Horizon
Guest
Della do you deny that there is a wax mask (made by Pierre Imans) placed over Bernadetteās face for the purpose of hiding her sunken eyes and nose and to restore her blackened face to a more natural hue?I have researched all reliable sources.
Due you deny the truth of the original Exhujmation Reports supplied at the time of each of her 3 exhumations (kept in the Archives of St Gildards) that state:
1909 Sept 22nd:
āThe coffin was openedā¦ We noticed no smellā¦ The nose was dilated and shrunken. Like the hands, the feet were wizened and the toenails were still intactā¦ When the habit had been removed and the veil lifted from the head, the whole of the shriveled body could be seen, rigid and taut in every limbā¦The stomach had caved in and was taut like the rest of the body. So rigid was the body that it could be rolled over and back for washing.
ā¦In the few hours in which it had been exposed to the air the body had started turning black. The double coffin was closed, soldered, screwed down and sealed with seven seals.ā
1919 April 3rd:
āWhen the coffin was opened the body appeared to be absolutely intact and odorlessā¦the body is practically mummifiedā¦The skeleton is complete, and it was possible to carry the body to a table without any trouble. The skin has disappeared in some places, but it is still present on most parts of the body.ā
1925 April 18th:
āā¦the muscles have atrophied, but are well preserved; only the skin, which has shriveled, seems to have suffered from the effects of the damp in the coffin. ā¦but the body does not seem have putrefied, nor has any decomposition of the cadaver set in.ā
Now you may opine that the above eye witness descriptions are compatible with the phrase āperfectly incorruptā but that would not be what most readers here understand by the phrase.
Your desire to have readers believe that Bernadetteās nose is not shrunken and that she does not wear a rigid mask of wax suggests you also believe āperfectly incorruptā means she must look the same as the day she died.
Clearly this is not the case. The eye-witness facts at those exhumations seem quite at odds wrt this somewhat rosy spectacled 1960ās author (or your interpretation of her).
Her body is clearly dessicated, wizened and missing skin in places.
Medical specialists may still call this āincorruptā but she is not perfectly preserved as she was the day she died - which is what you seem to be attempting to assert here
.
F
Faith1960
Guest
What you described is what I read and IMO that isnāt incorrupt.Della do you deny that there is a wax mask (made by Pierre Imans) placed over Bernadetteās face for the purpose of hiding her sunken eyes and nose and to restore her blackened face to a more natural hue?
Due you deny the truth of the original Exhujmation Reports supplied at the time of each of her 3 exhumations (kept in the Archives of St Gildards) that state:
1909 Sept 22nd:
āThe coffin was openedā¦ We noticed no smellā¦ The nose was dilated and shrunken. Like the hands, the feet were wizened and the toenails were still intactā¦ When the habit had been removed and the veil lifted from the head, the whole of the shriveled body could be seen, rigid and taut in every limbā¦The stomach had caved in and was taut like the rest of the body. So rigid was the body that it could be rolled over and back for washing.
ā¦In the few hours in which it had been exposed to the air the body had started turning black. The double coffin was closed, soldered, screwed down and sealed with seven seals.ā
1919 April 3rd:
āWhen the coffin was opened the body appeared to be absolutely intact and odorlessā¦the body is practically mummifiedā¦The skeleton is complete, and it was possible to carry the body to a table without any trouble. The skin has disappeared in some places, but it is still present on most parts of the body.ā
1925 April 18th:
āā¦the muscles have atrophied, but are well preserved; only the skin, which has shriveled, seems to have suffered from the effects of the damp in the coffin. ā¦but the body does not seem have putrefied, nor has any decomposition of the cadaver set in.ā
Now you may opine that the above eye witness descriptions are compatible with the phrase āperfectly incorruptā but that would not be what most readers here understand by the phrase.
Your desire to have readers believe that Bernadetteās nose is not shrunken and that she does not wear a rigid mask of wax suggests you also believe āperfectly incorruptā means she must look the same as the day she died.
Clearly this is not the case. The eye-witness facts at those exhumations seem quite at odds wrt this somewhat rosy spectacled 1960ās author (or your interpretation of her).
Her body is clearly dessicated, wizened and missing skin in places.
Medical specialists may still call this āincorruptā but she is not perfectly preserved as she was the day she died - which is what you seem to be attempting to assert here
D
Della
Guest
I do deny that a wax āmoldā was made to cover Bernadetteās face and hands because that didnāt happen and you havenāt cited anything that says otherwise. A light coating of wax was applied to her face and hands, as Iāve already stated. Itās the same thing that is done to oranges we buy in the grocery storeāwhich in no way alters the appearance of the orange. Her body had started to blacken only because the sisters washed it after it had been exhumed, otherwise this wouldnāt have happened, so it took the interference of people to make that happen, not the ordinary decay of the grave. Bernadette is incorrupt in that she is recognizable as herāfar more than any Egyptian mummy ever was. Her state is remarkable and miraculous considering no other bodies buried in the same ground were so preserved, but had decayed like bodies usually do. That is all I am saying.Della do you deny that there is a wax mask (made by Pierre Imans) placed over Bernadetteās face for the purpose of hiding her sunken eyes and nose and to restore her blackened face to a more natural hue?
Due you deny the truth of the original Exhujmation Reports supplied at the time of each of her 3 exhumations (kept in the Archives of St Gildards) that state:
1909 Sept 22nd:
āThe coffin was openedā¦ We noticed no smellā¦ The nose was dilated and shrunken. Like the hands, the feet were wizened and the toenails were still intactā¦ When the habit had been removed and the veil lifted from the head, the whole of the shriveled body could be seen, rigid and taut in every limbā¦The stomach had caved in and was taut like the rest of the body. So rigid was the body that it could be rolled over and back for washing.
ā¦In the few hours in which it had been exposed to the air the body had started turning black. The double coffin was closed, soldered, screwed down and sealed with seven seals.ā
1919 April 3rd:
āWhen the coffin was opened the body appeared to be absolutely intact and odorlessā¦the body is practically mummifiedā¦The skeleton is complete, and it was possible to carry the body to a table without any trouble. The skin has disappeared in some places, but it is still present on most parts of the body.ā
1925 April 18th:
āā¦the muscles have atrophied, but are well preserved; only the skin, which has shriveled, seems to have suffered from the effects of the damp in the coffin. ā¦but the body does not seem have putrefied, nor has any decomposition of the cadaver set in.ā
Now you may opine that the above eye witness descriptions are compatible with the phrase āperfectly incorruptā but that would not be what most readers here understand by the phrase.
Your desire to have readers believe that Bernadetteās nose is not shrunken and that she does not wear a rigid mask of wax suggests you also believe āperfectly incorruptā means she must look the same as the day she died.
Clearly this is not the case. The eye-witness facts at those exhumations seem quite at odds wrt this somewhat rosy spectacled 1960ās author (or your interpretation of her).
Her body is clearly dessicated, wizened and missing skin in places.
Medical specialists may still call this āincorruptā but she is not perfectly preserved as she was the day she died - which is what you seem to be attempting to assert here
If the body is recognizable as who s/he was in life, thatās incorrupt enough for our purposes. Thatās perfection enough considering that most bodies simply decay and there is no explanation why Bernadetteās didnāt do that when all others buried in the same ground did. In her pictures her face is clearly recognizable not only as human but as herāas she was in life. I say thatās good enough for me.
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
Donāt know if completely, but what is exposed is certainly incorrupt.
I saw her incorrupt body in Paris, 1998. Her eyes are open and they are blue.
Jim
F
Faith1960
Guest
Do you know if hey were her real eyes or a ātouch upā with glass eyes?
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
Real eyes.
google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.freewebs.com/luckyjane82/death%2520of%2520St.%2520Catherine.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.freewebs.com/luckyjane82/stcatherinelaboure.htm&h=487&w=976&sz=65&tbnid=FKIzVTxYHggEpM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=180&zoom=1&usg=__UX4gBSbChDMU9WAsxKuma-OGBr4=&docid=wuWH2QRrKolq3M&sa=X&ei=Wz6NUqfoLfis4APzy4DoCQ&sqi=2&ved=0CDIQ9QEwAg
In fact, the story behind her, is that a riot was breaking out in the streets outside the church where her body lay. Suddenly, her eyes opened and her hands pointed up. The event caused those who witnessed it to run into the streets announcing what they had just see. The curiosity stopped the riot as people ran to the church to see what had taken place.
Jim
F
fred_conty
Guest
F
Faith1960
Guest
Neat! When I was a kid I went to a school and parish St Catherine Laboure.
O
OraLabora
Guest
This is true. When St. AndrĆ© Bessette was canonized, there was an article in the local paper about a doctor that had been retained by the Vatican to examine the miracle cures of Bl. Br. AndrĆ©. She was a very reputable physician and was moreover an atheist, and in the article she remarked how surprised she was at the Vaticanās thoroughness in examining the miracles to ensure they could not be attributed to natural phenomena.
B
Blue_Horizon
Guest
Indeed I did source material saying this Della - it even names the manufacturer of the mask. Please re-check below. This is of course a secondary and more recent source than the medical testimony I just provided below.
If you want to pursuade readers here, which I presume is your intention, the burden is now on you to provide secondary or (better) primary sources that explicity deny āthe factsā my source has provided. Namely, Bernadetteās face was moulded and then a wax mask was made from that mould so that her nose and eyes would not appear sunken.
I would be delighted to be corrected (this secondary source may be mistaken) - but we must be loyal to the truth as we discover it. You really need to present material from equivalent or better (ie primary) sources that explicitly deny this. You cannot now reasonably expect people to take your personal word/interpretation for it.
This is pure unsourced speculation on your part which is not supported by any of the medical testimony I have seen. What are you basing this speculation on?
It is clear that the Exhumation specialists did speculate a little - but not at all what you have just stated. They, rather, said:
1909: The lower parts of the body had turned slightly black. This seems to have been the result of the carbon of which quite large quantities were found in the coffinā¦The nuns washed the body and replaced it in a new coffin lined with zinc and padded with white silk. In the few hours in which it had been exposed to the air the body had started turning black. The double coffin was closed, soldered, screwed down and sealed with seven seals."
That is, the exhuming specialists clearly believed the new blackening of the skin was due to the fresh air not the washing. Indeed, if they thought it was due to the washing why was it allowed to be repeated at the 2nd and 3rd exhumations? No, they put it down to the breaking of the hermetic airtight seal of the first coffin. Note that the old coffin was replaced with a new one which had a hermetic zinc metal seal and the lid was actually soldered in place to ensure this.
The washing of the body only caused, apparantly, a light coating of crystalised ācalcium saltsā as observed in the 2nd exhumation. Calcium salts are white not black.
This is more balancedā¦but it was not really what you were saying below and it is not what Faith was asking - hence my reaction. (Your belief below was originally āā¦her nose is not shrunkenā¦Bernadetteās body was perfectly preserved.ā)
Clearly a wizened, dessicated body with skin missing is not perfectly preserved, which was Faithās question. It was a very good question because if God can work a miracle of incorruption why not anti-dessication and anti skin-loss as well? I do not know the answer to that. But it does suggest that the normal workings of nature are not totally held at bay here. That need not be incompatible with the miraculous.
Of course it is, no one denies that. The question is, to what extent is it of God and to what extent is it a rare possibility of nature.
We cannot pretend that persons regarded as saints in their own lifetime (especially visionaries) attract much support from wealthy believers who are willing to pay for the very best of āfunereal technologyā. Clearly this happened with Bernadette who had a hugely expensive hermetically sealed metal casing in her coffin which made aerobic based putrification impossible. No wonder her body began blackening when the seal was broken.
I have not bothered to discover whether she was embalmed (and if so then likely with the most expensive preservation technology available). These āmummificationā advantages would have given her body a huge preservation āhead startā over other normal persons buried at the same time as herself.
Perhaps you can advise sources re whether she was embalmed or not as you appear to have researched these things to some extent?
D
Della
Guest
Your source itself stated quite clearly that the sisters washed Bernadetteās body and then the blackening is mentionedānot before that.
And yes, a man who applied wax to her face and hands did that. I have never read in any of my first hand sourcesāfrom books whose texts are not online and which are stored away in my basement or attic, that a āmoldā was made to cover up defects in her face.
It is obvious from her picture that that is not a mold but her real face and hands. I will trust my first hand sources over 2nd and 3rd hand recounts of what happened.
St. Bernadette had a great influence on me becoming Catholic and so I researched her life quite thoroughly and, I am, therefore, sure of my facts. :tiphat:
And yes, a man who applied wax to her face and hands did that. I have never read in any of my first hand sourcesāfrom books whose texts are not online and which are stored away in my basement or attic, that a āmoldā was made to cover up defects in her face.
It is obvious from her picture that that is not a mold but her real face and hands. I will trust my first hand sources over 2nd and 3rd hand recounts of what happened.
St. Bernadette had a great influence on me becoming Catholic and so I researched her life quite thoroughly and, I am, therefore, sure of my facts. :tiphat:
F
Faith1960
Guest
Actually, her feet were found to be blackened upon the first exhumation, before the nuns washed her body.
D
Della
Guest
Which hardly matters. You do know what normally happens to a dead body? I donāt ask this to be at all sarcastic, but to emphasize how truly remarkable that her body was intact after being buried without embalming. What more could we want for evidence than her obviously incorrupt face and handsāstill plainly recognizable as her and no one elseāstill intact and looking so lovely and peaceful, like sheās just sleeping? Thatās enough of a miracle for me, anyway.
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
OK, so Iām confused.
Whatās the debate about ?
Jim
Whatās the debate about ?
Jim
D
Della
Guest
Ya got me.
F
Faith1960
Guest
The people who exhumed St. Bernadetteās body called her incorrupt even though her feet were blackened, nose was shriveled and her body was mummified. IMO thatās not incorrupt.
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
Incorrupt doesnāt mean, totally incorrupt, but the majority of the body is incorrupt.The people who exhumed St. Bernadetteās body called her incorrupt even though her feet were blackened, nose was shriveled and her body was mummified. IMO thatās not incorrupt.
Hope this helps.
Jim
F
Faith1960
Guest
When the body in death is darkend in any way, or patches of skin is missing like it was in her case, IMO, thatās not incorrupt. Partially incorrupt perhaps, but not incorrupt.
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
Well thatās your opinion.
However, bodies buried next to the incorruptibleās, end up as dust with skeletons remaining.
Also, in many incorruptible cases, their clothes decayed but the major portions of their body did not. I believe St Bernadetteās clothes were decayed and the nuns put new clothes on her.
When you can explain that, come back and argue.
Jim
- Status